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Hello Adam.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:21] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> Hello Nathan. Thank you so much for having me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:23] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> He&#8217;s giving me the thumbs up. You can&#8217;t see it, but I had to practice Adam&#8217;s surname several times. And I&#8217;m going to just say it that once, because there&#8217;s a high chance I got it wrong.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:31] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> It was perfect.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:32] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Thank you so much. We&#8217;re going to talk today a little bit about a very, very exciting development in the WordPress space. You probably have caught sight of it, if you follow the WordPress project closely. It&#8217;s called Playground, and it is profoundly interesting. And if you&#8217;ve not touched it, it may be that some of the things that we&#8217;re going to talk about today will, I&#8217;m going to say, it will shock you. 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Can I ask, when you created Playground, and obviously, dear listener, apologies, you may not know yet what it is, but we&#8217;ll just get this bit out of the way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>When you created Playground, was that a project that you were working on as a side project? Were you just doing that in your spare time, or was this something that Automattic, for example, wished to bring into existence, and so you got the job of doing that? So yeah, how did it actually begin?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:41] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> I don&#8217;t think anyone dreamt it was even possible at the time. I was just writing a technical tutorial for something in WordPress. And I wrote the lessons, and then I realised that before publishing it, I also have to write lesson number one, setup. And there it opened a Pandora box of, oh, install Docker. Oh, maybe you&#8217;re on Windows, maybe you need WSL. Oh, install, Node.js. What&#8217;s Git, right? Like, here some resources about Git.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I get so annoyed with that. I wanted to write none of it. I wanted a set up checklist that just says, click this button. And so I wondered, well, you could do this with a cloud setup, an infrastructure, right? Like, sort of like GitHub code spaces, where you spin up something in, I don&#8217;t know, like Amazon Cloud or Google Cloud.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But that costs money. That&#8217;s difficult to maintain. It&#8217;s also not that easy to set up, right? It takes time. And then you have all sorts of problems like, what if someone uploads illegal content in there? Are you hosting that now? And so I thought, well, we should be really running WordPress in the browser. Only that&#8217;s impossible, right? But I wonder, maybe it&#8217;s not impossible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I knew about this technology, WebAssembly. It was the promise of running all the regular desktop software in web browsers. I&#8217;ve been hearing about it for like 10 or 15 years, at that time maybe. So I felt like, I wonder if that went anywhere. And so I started digging and tinkering. And two weeks later, I had a very rough prototype.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>A lot of things didn&#8217;t work. You sometimes got kicked out of WP Admin. You know, like styles wouldn&#8217;t load all that. It was super slow, but it worked. And my manager at the time, I think he was like preoccupied with other stuff, so he didn&#8217;t mind. When I came up with this prototype, I got very mixed reactions actually. Like some people were super amazed and like, whoa, there&#8217;s so many implications to this, and, wow, it&#8217;s magic.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But actually, most people were like, yeah, it&#8217;s a cool toy. What are we going to do with it? It has no practical uses. And it took months to get the perception of Playground further, to get people to perceive Playground as something actually revolutionary, because it absolutely is.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And something that takes WordPress into so many new possible applications. It solves the most annoying problems WordPress. Setup, resetting your site, right? Like, when you want to try new plugins, everyone&#8217;s always creating new sites, and then deleting them, or resetting the same site to its original state, or previewing code changes on GitHub, I can keep going like that. But yeah, I think, did I answer your question?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:10] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, yeah. that&#8217;s great. So I&#8217;ll just paraphrase what my experience of Playground is, because we haven&#8217;t laid that foundation out. I don&#8217;t understand the underlying technology, so Adam is going to have to shepherd me through that, as we have this conversation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But from the end user&#8217;s perspective, when I&#8217;ve set up WordPress websites in the past, there&#8217;s always been some kind of interaction with a file structure. You have to download WordPress from .org in my case. And you take it from there, and you upload that, and then you create a database, and you bind the database to the wordpress.org repo that you&#8217;ve created, and then you&#8217;re off to the races. And you have to host that somewhere, and that whole process now can be done with the click of a button inside of a lot of hosting companies and so on.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But there&#8217;s some kind of wall there. You either have to interact with files, or you have to pay a hosting company to make that happen. And the first time I saw a Playground, I clicked a button, and there was a WordPress website, a moment or two later. And I genuinely do mean a moment or two later, I think the time it&#8217;s taking me to say this sentence is significantly longer than the time that it takes to get your website up there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I remember I had no context around what it was. Nobody told me what was going to happen. They just said, oh, click this. So I clicked that. And I was staring at the screen thinking, what, there&#8217;s WordPress, but I didn&#8217;t have to pay for anything, I didn&#8217;t have to go anywhere, it just appeared. And then the cogs start going in my head. Where&#8217;s the database? Where&#8217;s the files? Where&#8217;s all this come from? How is this possible?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then being truly flawed by it, thinking, no, this is some kind of implementation of, as you said, WebAssembly. This is happening inside the browser. And then of course, the admiration comes in like, how did that get done? Who did that? And of course it was you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, this is the ability to install WordPress, inside the browser, at the click of a button. A fully functional WordPress site. So there&#8217;s no impediment to using it, apart from if you don&#8217;t have three seconds to wait, give up. That&#8217;s the only problem. If you don&#8217;t have three seconds to spare, then okay, fine.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Okay, so the technical bit I want to dig into a lot, it&#8217;s a podcast, so we won&#8217;t go right into the weeds. But, when I click that button, and I want Playground to be invoked, to have my WordPress website, broadly what&#8217;s going on? Like, there must be files somewhere. There has to be the file structure of WordPress. There has to be a database in some way, shape, or form, because that&#8217;s how it&#8217;s built? Where are they coming from? And once they&#8217;ve come from there, where are they now living?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:49] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> They all live in your browser. Playground, very broadly, is a technology to run the entire WordPress tech stack in your browser. So to run it on a server, you typically need something like, people call it LAMP stack, right? Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP. And Playground brings all these pieces into the browser, in some shape, or form.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So PHP, for example, we are running as WebAssembly. So PHP, the programming language, is a program in itself, right? Like, it&#8217;s written in C, you can look it up on GitHub, and you can build it as something you can run on a server. But now with WebAssembly, you can also build it as something you can run in JavaScript, which means the web browsers can run it, and Node.js can run it, and a lot of other environments can run it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Then the database, MySQL. We don&#8217;t run MySQL in the browser. Technically, maybe we could do that, but there&#8217;s a lot of reasons not to. Instead, we are running SQLite, and SQLite doesn&#8217;t require a separate program. It&#8217;s just a library, and it writes all your data to a file. So when you run Playground, it actually downloads a pre-populated database with WordPress already installed, so you don&#8217;t have to go through the installation wizard. All the queries, all the SQL queries go through that database.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now the syntax is a little bit different than with MySQL, and we have an entire translation layer to take MySQL queries, and express them in SQLite, and take SQLite results, and express them as something that came from MySQL.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So really the same W DB object works for interacting with the database. Then we have Apache. Normally you run a web server, and this allows you to request different pages. Now, WordPress works as a, you navigate it as a classic website, right? So we click a link, and then the URL changes in your browser bar. Which means the browser had to perform a request, ask some server somewhere, get a response, and then maybe there are images, and scripts, and styles in that response. So it has to go and fetch all these resources.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And normally you have an Apache, or Nginx, or another server software running somewhere, and the browser goes there. Obviously we don&#8217;t have that in the browser, but there&#8217;s a cool technology web browser supports these days. It&#8217;s called Service Workers. And you can intercept all HTTP requests. And it&#8217;s meant for progressive web apps, so we can run offline. But we are playing a little trick on that Service Worker. And instead of caching things, we are just rerouting that to PHP, where WordPress can serve them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Finally, in the LAMP stack you have Linux, which provides you with all the external world, right? So it allows you to allocate memory, write files, read files, interact with the network. It gives you access to all the devices on your computer. Again, like, we don&#8217;t have access to all of that in the browser, but we are shipping implementation of all these bits written in JavaScript. So we have a JavaScript file system, it&#8217;s just three objects in trench coat, right? Like, pretending to be a directory structure.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We have a networking bridge that can rewrite network traffic as fetch calls. We have memory allocator, which is the compiler that turns PHP source code into WebAssembly. And so on and so forth. So it&#8217;s the entire tech stack running in the browser. And you can also ship it to so many other devices. We have a CLI tool. We have a VS Code extension. So we just installed it from the marketplace, and boom, we have a WordPress server. No dependencies at all.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ella Van Durpe, I hope I&#8217;m pronouncing that right, she built an app called Blocknotes. It&#8217;s Playground, it&#8217;s WordPress, in an iOS app, in App store. I bet you would be able to run it on your smart fridge, right? If you had enough time. So really this turns WordPress into an application engine, so to speak. You could write a WordPress plugin, bundle it as Playground, and ship it to all these places where Playground can run, which means most devices these days.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I just want to make sure that the listeners have really grasped what&#8217;s going on here. So this is WordPress purely inside the browser. Through all of the contrivances and clever things that Adam has just described, it&#8217;s all happening inside the browser. And so just dwell on that for a moment, because that is actually pretty profound.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I do wonder, when you&#8217;d been working on it for a couple of weeks, and you actually had this version working, you said it had various faults, which I guess you&#8217;ve been tackling as time has gone on. Did you get that sense of, wait, what have I done here?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You know, this is quite remarkable, because the stated mission of WordPress is democratise publishing. Let&#8217;s just concentrate on the word democratise there. It&#8217;s get anything into the hands of everybody. That&#8217;s really what the endeavor of the project is, get publishing into the hands of everybody.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And a big impediment to that is the experimentation part, playing with WordPress, being able to judge whether it&#8217;s a good fit for you, your business, the agency that you run, whatever. And especially for non-technical people, trying WordPress out is a bit of a faff. You could either do it on the desktop, with downloading additional software, but again, if you&#8217;re not very technical, that is a bit of a hurdle.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is a one button install, three second wait, whatever it may be. And then you&#8217;re off to the races. So, again, now that I&#8217;ve said all of that, did you get a sense of the profundity, the profound nature of what you&#8217;d built, after you&#8217;d worked for those two weeks?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:12] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> Yes. I was staring at the screen, I distinctly remember thinking, this is profound. I didn&#8217;t fully understand all the implications with all the devices. WordPress as a vector for delivering apps. Maybe setting up a site, not even knowing how to code, and then pressing a button, and exporting that as something you can run on a desktop.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And by the way, we are not there today. Technology allows that we don&#8217;t have that button. But I knew this is going to change the way we think about WordPress, and the way we use it, the way we learn WordPress. But I guess I was mostly focused on things that annoyed me specifically. So maybe that tutorial, right? Oh, now I will be able to teach people without asking them to go through all these steps. Or maybe now I will be able to try out plugins, or do development environments, again, like without spending all that time. And maybe that can work on Windows.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But honestly, I feel like we&#8217;re only still scratching the surface. And I understand more and more about Playground every month, like the apps angle I just told you about. That came up I think in April, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>There&#8217;s another idea, if you can run an app on your mobile phone. And we were also exploring synchronising data between Playgrounds and WordPresses. So maybe you would write an article in a Playground, and it&#8217;ll get published in a website somewhere. And then maybe that website could have five different copies, and they would all synchronise in real time. And I think we&#8217;re like quarters, or years away from that. But assuming we had that, maybe WordPress could power a social network app, right? Since you can run it on every device, and you can exchange data in a distributed way. There&#8217;s all sorts of wild ideas.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:48] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, so we&#8217;re back at the beginning, you&#8217;ve spent a couple of weeks building it, and you&#8217;ve got this working, functional prototype, let&#8217;s call it like that. It feels like that got picked up fairly rapidly, because then I started hearing about it, Playground, at various different points. I remember attending one of the WordPress flagship events, I can&#8217;t remember which one it was. Matt Mullenweg was on the stage, and he was just basically saying, oh, and there&#8217;s this, you know, everybody should check this out. This is pretty amazing. And I was thinking, gosh, okay, this is now a serious endeavor if it&#8217;s getting mentioned at that kind of event, that&#8217;s fascinating.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So you then were able to start working on it, more or less full time. And I&#8217;m guessing that there must have been some conversation to be had there, within Automattic. People must have realised, yeah, let&#8217;s get Adam on this. We can see some blue sky in this project. We can see some useful things that we could do with it. Is that kind of what happened, that your work week got turned around and, okay, Adam, you are on Playground now?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:20:47] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> Yeah, you got it more or less right. I&#8217;m saying more or less because, so Automattic is sort of choose your own journey type of place, where you can be in a team where you&#8217;re very directed, or you can be in a team where you&#8217;re very autonomous, right? There&#8217;s all sorts of teams out there. And I was always a free electron type of person.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I just started working on Playground. I like saying no one stopped me, that&#8217;s more of what happened. And these days, team for Playground. So there&#8217;s three of us, and it&#8217;s a very nice change. So there&#8217;s Brandon, there&#8217;s Bero, and there&#8217;s me. And, man, it&#8217;s so nice just working on this with other people, because it&#8217;s been quite a lonely journey for some time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I had support from Dennis Snell, who&#8217;s been also maintaining Playground while I was on a sabbatical. I appreciate Dennis so much, and he&#8217;s done so much good for Playground. We don&#8217;t have enough time to discuss it. At the same time, he&#8217;s also had a lot of other projects on his plate.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I was mostly trying to figure out, oh, let&#8217;s communicate about Playground. Let&#8217;s publish something. Let&#8217;s prepare a video for a State of the Word. But let&#8217;s also keep developing new features. Let&#8217;s also focus on the vision, and let&#8217;s also fix any bug people report, right? Like, I was all over the place. And these days, I feel Playground is in a much better place, in terms of focus.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>One of the things we want to do in a short term is figure out all the ways Playground can crash. We&#8217;ve seen a uptick in usage of Playground. It&#8217;s been featured on a few workshops, on learn.wordpress.org. I think Ryan Welcher featured it. Jonathan Bossenger, I think Anne McCarthy also did, and a few other people. This really inspired some folks to start using it, building blueprints for the plugin directory, to share a live demo of their plugin.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And of course, when you see more users, they discover more issues in the software. So that&#8217;s what happened, and that&#8217;s fantastic because now we can fix all of that. But this also means new feature development isn&#8217;t going forward as quickly, as if Playground was already stable. But stability, building trust, releasing a high quality documentation, that&#8217;s a big priority right now. Because if the platform isn&#8217;t stable, it won&#8217;t be as useful. So that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re trying to do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:22:59] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I remember using it, as I said, for the first time, and pressing the button, getting my WordPress website, and there it was, everything working as you would expect, the brand new, up-to-date version of WordPress. And then closing the browser, and wondering, okay, what&#8217;s going to happen now? And at that point, that was that. Everything that I just created, was gone. So, well, that&#8217;s fine. I had no expectations beyond there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;m wondering if, in the future, the disposable nature of it might be something that you are working on, so that it could persist. Let&#8217;s say that I click the button, get the WordPress Playground going, but then choose to come back to it, I don&#8217;t know, a week later, two weeks later, it&#8217;s something that I&#8217;m doing as a side project. The way that I&#8217;ve interacted with it, that would&#8217;ve been impossible. Everything is disposed of the moment you close the browser window. But just wondering if persistence was something that might even be possible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:56] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> Absolutely. And there&#8217;s a bunch of ways to tackle that. So right now in Playground, in the upper right corner, there&#8217;s a little button, it says like WordPress 6.5, PHP 8.3. And it allows you to change versions of WordPress current PHP, but it also allows you to change the way Playground is persisted. So the default mode is that it&#8217;s temporary, and it&#8217;s gone the moment you close your browser tab. But there&#8217;s also a browser cache mode, so then when you return to Playground website, it&#8217;ll remember your last site.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And there&#8217;s also an experimental mode, that allows you to synchronise Playground to your local directory on your computer, from your web browser. So if you choose that, the entire WordPress structure will be recreated on your machine. And if you make changes in Visual Studio Code, for example, they will show up in Playground.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>There&#8217;s also an export button, so you can download your site as a zip file. You can export it to GitHub as a pull request. That feature also exists. With pull request specifically, I&#8217;m exploring a static site collaboration workflow. So the idea is this, you have a GitHub repository, you have a lot of content in there. Maybe that&#8217;s a documentation for something, maybe that&#8217;s entire website. So you have HTML pages, you have uploads, you have some plugins. And that repo is used to create a static site, and it&#8217;s hosted somewhere.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But then you can also go to that static site, and let&#8217;s imagine it&#8217;s a documentation site. So maybe every article has a little button called Edit in Playground, and you click it, and it opens Playground with that article already loaded in the editor. You change it, you upload something, you click export to GitHub as a pull request, and boom, there it goes, there is a change proposal.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, someone else would be able to review it by clicking a button in that pull request, and loading your changes in Playground, and say, hey, good job, or, oh, there&#8217;s a typo, let me fix it. And they will just update that pull request.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:25:50] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That is truly fascinating. And it is just really blowing apart the very nature of what it is. Because when you first came up with it, I feel like the word Playground was just the perfect encapsulation for what it is. You know, you just mess around, and then you close it down, start something else, mess around, close it down. You&#8217;re just messing about. You just want to test out a new plugin, you want to try something new, you just want to see what the latest default WordPress theme looks like, and how you do full site editing, and all of that. You just want to have a tinker, and you just want to do it. You&#8217;ve got a little bit of time, and then you close the browser and it goes away.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But it seems like the intuition here is that, you&#8217;re stepping away from Playground&#8217;s roots, if you like, of just, it&#8217;s disposable, it&#8217;s just for a bit of fun. And it&#8217;s moving into the territory of something more permanent. So not just, it can be retained and persists in the browser, but we&#8217;ve got ways of shipping this. We can take this from your Playground, we can put it up to GitHub, and then from GitHub, who knows where that could end up. You know, it could end up in a CDN somewhere as a static website, like you said, or it could do a multitude of other things. It sounds like it&#8217;s going from more Playground, to developing actual real world projects.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:04] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> Yes. So that static site, for example, it could be completely static. So you could run it without any PHP hosting, so very cheaply on a CDN. But then you could go to slash WP Admin, and you could have a running Playground there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So it&#8217;s static without the static.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:21] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> Yes. Perhaps block markup could replace markdown for a lot of use cases actually. Because in markdown, it&#8217;s great for simple documents, but then if you want to go beyond that, people started inventing ways of extending that. So maybe you have MDX that brings React to markdown. Maybe you have syntax extensions. I think Gutenberg repo uses some of that, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>There&#8217;s a lot of these projects, and all these things amount to blocks essentially. Just give me more ways, more widgets in markdown, give me more things I can express, right? And with Playground, yeah, like you can express any WordPress block. Just install it in WordPress, export, use it in a post, save that content of that post, that&#8217;s your block markup. And there&#8217;s a lot of ways you can interact with it. Render it, right? You can edit it in WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But to your point, there is a development environment these days. It&#8217;s been released by wordpress.com, it&#8217;s called Studio. And it&#8217;s actually built on top of Playground, right? So we don&#8217;t need any Docker. You don&#8217;t need any virtual machines. It&#8217;s running Playground inside an Electron app, and it just works. You don&#8217;t need any dependencies. Just install it, there it goes. Maybe that same environment, with the Playground for its WordPress for Apps paradigm, right? Maybe we&#8217;ll see it on tablet at one point. With all the ways to utilise Playground, actually, I have a note, let me refresh my memory a little bit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Alright, so if you&#8217;ve ever been to a contributor day, you&#8217;ve probably seen how difficult the setup can be, right? Just getting WordPress running on your machine for a new person, it can easily take the entire contributor day, even if you have full access to WordPress Core developers during the event. Playground can reduce that to a single step. And there can be even multiple, predefined WordPress builds, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Are you a Gutenberg developer? Are you a Core developer? Do you want to just contribute to docs? Then we could take it to a browser, right? So you wouldn&#8217;t even have to do anything locally, and you could still take advantage of Git, and pull requests, and all these workflows.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Further along, perhaps we could encapsulate some contribution workflows without ever reasoning about code, right? So I imagined a theme directory on wordpress.org. It could have Playground, where you would just build a theme, you would be able to go back to it, submit it for a review, right? If we add a code editor to that, now we can have a plugin contribution workflow.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>These days, we&#8217;re about to launch a community space for Playground Blueprints. So Blueprints are these configuration files that express an entire WordPress setup. So maybe you want a WordPress with WPCLI and a specific plugins, or maybe you want a WordPress with a so and so theme, and a bunch of content, right? Maybe that&#8217;s your site. Or maybe you want to preinstall your plugin, and configure it with a useful default content for the demo.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So you can now encode that as a JSON file, and the blueprints community space, it&#8217;ll be just that. It&#8217;ll be what wordpress.org/plugin is, but for these blueprints. So everyone will be able to share a blueprint, review the blueprints that are already there, immediately launch a WordPress site from any of these blueprints. And I hope this will spark a lot of cool ideas for Playground usage. Honestly, people are teaching me so much about what you can do with Playground these days.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Someone recently mentioned this idea, they really don&#8217;t like working with PowerPoint, and there are ways of building slides in WordPress. So now I have a blueprint that turns WordPress into a slide building, presentation building program. It&#8217;s configured with the right theme, it has some slides already in it, it has an export to PDF button, and you can just start editing and then save a presentation, export it as a PDF, host it as a static site, right? If you want to share a link with the world.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I&#8217;m not even like touching on things like classroom usage, or education use cases, right? There&#8217;s a professor using Playground to teach students about building websites, and it&#8217;s very easy for them because it doesn&#8217;t require installing anything. So I think like the university computers are like locked down so you cannot install custom software, but you can open websites. So you can go to a Playground site, or this version of Playground site where you have a code editor. And you can just start hacking with a plugin, or just a setup. And then you can export it, or submit it for grading, publish what the entire class created. There&#8217;s a lot more.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:31:44] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I mean, truly, the sky is the limit really, isn&#8217;t it? Because, again, just to take you back to that moment where you had spent two weeks on it, and there it was in its nascent form, none of this was going through your head. And now here we are a little while later, and it&#8217;s almost like, you know, you&#8217;ve got the theme repository, you&#8217;ve got the plugin repository, and I feel like we need a Playground repository. And, you know, you&#8217;ve described it as blueprints.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That just seems to have so much utility. Just different flavors of WordPress. Okay, do you want a super stripped down version of WordPress? Are you just beginning? Do you just want to look at WordPress for the first time? Click this button. Are you more experienced? Do you want to get straight into the full site editing? Okay, click this button, and you&#8217;ll be hit with that as soon as you launch it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But then of course, all of the different things, the companies who produce plugins, who would like to be able to demonstrate what their plugin does, well that, until now, required you click a button, and you connect it to some third party service that they pay for, which spins up a WordPress website with their configuration. Now, you just click a button and it&#8217;s there in the browser, and it can now come with the dependencies that it needs.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So let&#8217;s say you&#8217;re a WooCommerce plugin house, and obviously you need WooCommerce built into it. You can have that set as a dependency. So click the button, not only does our plugin come, but it&#8217;s fully configured, ready to go with WooCommerce and everything.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Just so many uses. And then it feels to me, this is kind of like not really stretching the horizon very far, but it feels to me that, then the ability to be able to click a button inside of your Playground, and then take it to more traditional hosting, so that you do have something more permanent. Might be kind of useful, but from everything that you&#8217;ve said, there&#8217;s a thousand different directions, tendrils going all over the place, you know, the education space. Just a million different things. And I guess that must be one of the nice things from where you are sitting. You&#8217;re just seeing all of this interaction in a project that you built, and that must be joyous.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:49] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> It is. And, man, like there&#8217;s so many great ideas floating around in the community. Use cases I would never come up with in a million years. And I just love seeing more and more of these.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:34:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I do like the idea of being able to go to an official blueprint repository, if you like, and just sift through user submitted versions of WordPress. Let&#8217;s say you&#8217;ve just decided that you want to start selling a course online, here&#8217;s a perfectly pre-configured LMS experience for you, just so that you can see how that works. And, you know, or a shop, a WooCommerce shop, or just a regular WordPress website with full site editing, all done for you. But now we&#8217;re going to use this theme, oh, you are not happy with that one, try this Playground over here, we&#8217;ve got a different theme, but everything else is just the same.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>1,001 user submitted, varients of WordPress, and that&#8217;s never been possible. We&#8217;re always starting from, basic WordPress then build things on top of it, because of the fact that there&#8217;s a lot of work which needs to go in before your site is working. Now with all these dependencies built in, the click of a button, there it is, ready to go. Like you said, it&#8217;s profound. It really is incredibly profound.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:35:01] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> One more cool thing I wanted to share though, we have a plugin for WordPress. You install it, and then you go to WP Admin plugins directory, and every plugin has install now button, it has it now, but it also has preview now button. And that preview now button clones your website in Playground, installs that plugin, and opens it in a new tab, so you can see, oh, do I like using it? Would it break my website? Is it even doing what I need it do? And you don&#8217;t like it, you just close that tab, and your production site is as it was before.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:35:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I&#8217;d forgotten about that. Yeah. But if you go to wordpress.org, now there&#8217;s a button. I remember there was a little bit of a kerfuffle where, it was a few months ago, where Playground got launched on the plugin repository, and for various different reasons, dependencies largely being the thing I think, that got withdrawn. Then, I think now it is that the plugin developers need to just tick a box to say, yes please on my plugin listing, please put Playground there because that will be something that I want.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And now I would imagine the majority, so long as it works, why wouldn&#8217;t you have that? You can go and experiment. So that&#8217;s new. If you haven&#8217;t been to the wordpress.org plugin repository recently, there is now, on a lot of plugins, a button just to use Playground. Click the button, you&#8217;ll see it, you&#8217;ll be able to see it immediately, and all the wonderful things that it does.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:36:16] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> Yeah, although that&#8217;s not what I meant.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:36:17] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Ah, apologies.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:36:19] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> What I meant is, there&#8217;s a separate plugin called the Playground. And if you install it on your WordPress site, you will get that preview button inside WP Admin, and it&#8217;ll preview that plugin a copy of your site.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:36:31] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Wheels within wheels. It&#8217;s very meta that isn&#8217;t it? I didn&#8217;t know that existed. So you&#8217;ve got a Playground site. Inside of that Playground site, you can install the Playground plugin. I guess you could get inception going on there, couldn&#8217;t you? Playground within Playground. within Playground, all the way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:36:49] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> Yeah, that is actually possible. So there&#8217;s a Playground Gutenberg block, and it&#8217;s in the WordPress plugin directory, and it has a preview button and it opens a Playground with that block inside Playground. So yeah, there are multiple levels.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:37:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> We&#8217;ve obviously waxed lyrical. I think it&#8217;s a fabulous project. Just what it&#8217;s going to open up in the future, who knows. I think the word profound, I think that&#8217;s the exact appropriate word at this point.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, all of this light that we&#8217;re shining on it, I presume there&#8217;s still things that you would like to fix. Things that don&#8217;t yet work as expected, that maybe some things which you&#8217;ll never be able to overcome, given the state of what browsers can do at the moment. Should we just talk about that? What are some of the limitations that you know of at the moment?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:37:28] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> Absolutely. So not all PHP extensions are supported in the browser, and we support more every month. But not yet at the place where you would have 100%. It&#8217;ll never be 100% right? Like for example, you cannot use Curl in a web browser. You can use it in a node version of Playground.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We&#8217;re just bringing in support for different image formats. So WebP and surprisingly jpeg. Png was already in there. Network is a large challenge. So WordPress would sometimes open, let me speak with a little bit more jargon. WordPress would sometimes open a TCP sockets to specific addresses, and you don&#8217;t have that API in the browser, right. You can only do fetch and few more things, but not that. So that may never be supported. Like if browsers had that, it would be large security risk. You can however do that in a node version of Playground.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The database support. I think all core features work well. And we even had a 99% of unit tests passing in Playground. But there are some plugins using MySQL features that are not yet supported. So I think one of them is select union. So we still have some work to do with the database support.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So by default Playground doesn&#8217;t have access to network, and you have to enable it in Playground options. That&#8217;s a performance thing. Playground is significantly slower with that. So just to give everyone snappy experience by default. However, we do have something going on to have networking by default and also have it being very performant. That will hopefully go away sometime soon.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And honestly, like we&#8217;re learning about new limitations. Yeah, I would say like every week of every month, people come to Playground repository, they ask about their use case and someone wanted to use soap client. It&#8217;s not supported at the moment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Someone else wanted to run a real server, right? So send a link to someone, somewhere and it&#8217;s just running in your browser. So we cannot really do that at the moment. But maybe it will be possible actually in the future. Like, I&#8217;m playing with a few ideas about that. So if you use Playground and something isn&#8217;t working right, come say hi to the Meta Playground channel on WordPress org Slack, or the WordPress slash WordPress dash Playground repository on GitHub, and tell us, we may not know.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:39:50] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I feel like you&#8217;ve created a bit of an iPhone moment with WordPress. What I mean by that was, everybody had a mobile phone prior to the iPhone, and then the iPhone came along, and then everybody really wanted an iPhone because it was so profoundly different. And it feels like you&#8217;ve done something profoundly different with WordPress, and when apps came along and suddenly, yeah, there was an iPhone, but it was an iPhone and it looked nice and everything, and then apps came along and made the iPhone more profoundly interesting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You&#8217;ve enabled more profoundly interesting things to be done with WordPress than could be done two years ago, and the supplying of that is crucial. But it&#8217;ll be interesting if we have this conversation in, let&#8217;s say three years time, I think the real interest will be, not necessarily the Playground bit, and forgive me, I&#8217;m not denigrating what you&#8217;ve done because it&#8217;s remarkable, but it&#8217;s what everybody will do with the Playground that you&#8217;ve built. And the unique things that they&#8217;ve created. And the hither to as yet unimagined things, which will become commonplace and normal with WordPress, that at the moment nobody&#8217;s even conceived. And you&#8217;ve hinted at a few of those now. And so you&#8217;ve genuinely stirred interest, and something novel in the WordPress space and that isn&#8217;t often happening..</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:41:16] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> Thank you so much. I&#8217;m blushing. Yeah. truly amazing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And think that iPhone moment analogy, it&#8217;s excellent. And if you don&#8217;t mind, I&#8217;ll borrow that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:41:27] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> When the App Store came to the iPhone, that moment where the iPhone, which was fun and you could play songs with it, but you couldn&#8217;t do all the other things, like store your notes and sync them to the cloud and communicate with other people on chat apps.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I imagine the developer community will jump on board and come up with a thousand different ways to build on top of Playground.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:41:46] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> The analogy may be going further than it seems at first because every blueprint is like an app, right? You have WordPress as your vehicle for setting things up. And then you can create a slide building app, as I said earlier. But I had someone running Doom, like the video game in the Playground.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah, you can build a course website with it, right? If you just pre-configure it in the correct way. We have a pull request previewer running in a couple of projects, right? You have a preview link on GitHub just posted automatically. You have plugin previewers. You have project demos. So many different things.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I have a blueprint that if you run it, it doesn&#8217;t actually create a Playground you can use, but it gives you a zip file. And in that zip there is a static version of what you started with, right? So now you can not only produce different WordPress setups and website setups, but also artifacts, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maybe another blueprint could, I don&#8217;t know, render a PDF, right? And that would be another version of your slides, to keep using this example.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You can embed Playground. You can ship Playground on all the devices. So I&#8217;m imagining a world where you can build a WordPress plugin, click a button, and now you have a desktop app. You have a server app. You have a front end app. You have a progressive web app. You have a phone app. You have a tablet app. You have a terminal app, right from a single code base. We don&#8217;t have that button today, but I think it&#8217;s very possible to build one.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:43:16] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It feels like the slogan is Playground, taking the friction out of using WordPress. Making that first step so much easier. No matter what your level of experience, if it&#8217;s the first time you&#8217;ve used WordPress, or if you want to do something more complicated. Just that frictionless step that you&#8217;ve created is, yeah, absolutely brilliant.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So just before we go, I know that you mentioned the Slack channel where you are hanging out. Maybe you want to mention that again, just so it&#8217;s gone into people&#8217;s heads. But also if anybody is curious, maybe there&#8217;s other places where you can help with the Playground project, but also if you&#8217;re willing, are places where people can get in touch with you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:43:52] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> Absolutely. Twitter is one of them. I&#8217;m most attentive to GitHub, cause I&#8217;m spending a lot of time in the Playground repo and all the Playground related activity. So probably the easiest way to reach me is through issues and discussions.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you have something unrelated to the product, but just wanted to explore your use case, ping me on Twitter. There&#8217;s WordPress.org Slack, called meta-playground and that&#8217;s another good place. And also I&#8217;ll be on WordCamp EU in June. I&#8217;ll be having a talk on the main stage about WordPress Playground. So come, say hi. Watch the talk and let&#8217;s talk in person.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:44:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Nice. Thank you very much. Adam Zelensky, thank you so much for chatting to me today. I really appreciate it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:44:34] <strong>Adam Zielinski:</strong> It&#8217;s been so lovely, naan. Thank you so much for having me.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<p>On the podcast today we have <a href=\"https://x.com/adamzielin\">Adam Zielinski</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Adam is the creator of WordPress Playground, a WordPress core committer, and Tech Editor release lead for WordPress 6.0. He works as a WordPress developer at Automattic and lives in Wrocław, Poland. In his spare time, he can be found bouldering, practising improv comedy, and playing badminton.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode, we talk about Playground, a groundbreaking project that is redefined the way we interact with WordPress. Adam&#8217;s visionary approach to creating a seamless WordPress experience within a web browser has revolutionised how easy it is to access WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We discuss Playground&#8217;s history, from the initial frustrations that sparked the idea, to the development process that brought it to life. We gain an understanding of the profound impact Playground is having on the WordPress landscape and its potential to shape the future of web development. It’s not often that the word profound is rightly used, but it feels appropriate here.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We explore the enormous potential uses of Playground, from simplifying setup processes to enabling experimentation with plugins and themes. Adam&#8217;s vision for Playground as a catalyst for democratising website creation and enabling a culture of innovation within the WordPress community is something that’s still evolving, and it’s clear that the direction the project takes is still being figured out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This project really does change the way that WordPress can be used, and there’s so many exciting prospects for how it might shape the future of website design and development.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re interested in hearing about cutting-edge advancements reshaping the WordPress landscape, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Useful links</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/playground/\">WordPress Playground</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://github.com/WordPress/blueprints\">Blueprints GitHub repo</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/meta/2024/05/15/the-blueprint-gallery-share-your-wordpress-creations-with-playground/\">The Blueprint Gallery: Share your WordPress creations with Playground</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://github.com/WordPress/wordpress-playground\">Playground GitHub repo</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/\">Learn WordPress</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://webassembly.org/\">Web Assembly</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://apps.apple.com/za/app/blocknotes/id6450189974\">Blocknotes</a> by Ella Van Durpe</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://x.com/adamzielin\">Adam on X / Twitter</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://europe.wordcamp.org/2024/speaker/adam-zieliski/\">Adam&#8217;s presentation at WordCamp Europe 2024</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p>The playground team:</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dennis Snell:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://github.com/dmsnell/\">https://github.com/dmsnell/</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brandon Payton:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://github.com/brandonpayton\">https://github.com/brandonpayton</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bero: <a href=\"https://github.com/bgrgicak\">https://github.com/bgrgicak</a></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 29 May 2024 14:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Nathan Wrigley\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:3;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:69:\"Do The Woo Community: All Things WordCamp Canada with Shanta Nathwani\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=83911\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:68:\"https://dothewoo.io/all-things-wordcamp-canada-with-shanta-nathwani/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:106:\"Shanta shares the challenges, diverse initiatives, and cultural elements in preparing for WordCamp Canada.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 29 May 2024 12:27:22 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:4;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:128:\"Do The Woo Community: The WP Includes Gender Equality in WordPress Businesses Survey with Siobhan McKeown and Francesca Marano\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=83888\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:125:\"https://dothewoo.io/the-wp-includes-gender-equality-in-wordpress-businesses-survey-with-siobhan-mckeown-and-francesca-marano/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:184:\"Rae Morey chats with Siobhan McKeown and Francesca Marano about the WP Includes\' initiative, the gender equality survey, upcoming presentation, personal experiences, and future impact.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 28 May 2024 08:13:51 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:5;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:10:\"Matt: WP21\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=114533\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:27:\"https://ma.tt/2024/05/wp21/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:3309:\"<p>It seems like just yesterday WordPress was <a href=\"https://ma.tt/2016/05/wordpress-is-a-teenager/\">becoming a teenager</a>, and in a blink of the eye it&#8217;s now old enough to drink! 21 years since <a href=\"https://mikelittle.org/\">Mike</a> and I did the first release of WordPress, forking <a href=\"https://miche.lv/\">Michel&#8217;s</a> work on b2/cafélog.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>There&#8217;s been many milestones and highlights along the way, and many more to come. I&#8217;ve been thinking a lot about elements that made WordPress successful in its early years that we should keep in mind as we build this year and beyond. Here&#8217;s 11 opinions:</p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Simple things should be easy and intuitive, and complex things possible.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Blogging, commenting, and pingbacks need to be fun. Static websites are fine, but dynamic ones are better. Almost every site would be improved by having a great blog.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Wikis are amazing, and our documentation should be wiki-easy to edit.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Forums should be front and center in the community. <a href=\"https://bbpress.org/\">bbPress</a> and <a href=\"https://buddypress.org/\">BuddyPress</a> need some love.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Every plugin and theme should have all the infrastructure that we use to build WordPress itself—version control, bug trackers, forums, documentation, internationalization, chat rooms, P2, and easy pathways for contribution and community. We shouldn&#8217;t be uploading ZIPs in 2024!</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Theme previews should be great, and a wide collection of non-commercial themes with diverse aesthetics and functionality are crucial. </li>\n\n\n\n<li>We can&#8217;t over-index for guidelines and requirements. Better to have good marketplace dynamics and engineer automated feedback loops and transparency to users. Boundaries in functionality and design should be pushed. (But spam and spammy behavior deserves zero tolerance.)</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Feedback loops are so important, and should scale with usage and the entire community rather than being reliant on gatekeepers.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Core should be opinionated and quirky: Easter eggs, language with personality even if it&#8217;s difficult to translate, jazzy.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Everyone developing and making decisions for software needs to use it.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>It&#8217;s important that we all do support, go to meetups and events, anything we can to stay close to regular end-users of what we make.</li>\n</ol>\n\n\n\n<p>A bonus: <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/playground/\">Playground is going to change everything</a>. What would you add?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Fun fact: On May 27, 2003 I blogged &#8220;Working backwards, earlier tonight was great. Put&nbsp;WordPress&nbsp;out, which felt great.&#8221; as one sentence in a <a href=\"https://ma.tt/2003/05/locked-out/\">953-word entry written from the porch of my parent&#8217;s house</a> where I was accidentally locked out all night until my Dad left in the morning to go to work. Had no idea WordPress would be as big as it is. Earlier that night had set up WP for my friend Ramie Speight, and done some phone tech support for another friend Mike Tremoulet I had met through the local blogger meetup. My friends from high school all had their own domains with WP and that feedback loop was magical for shaping the software.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Mon, 27 May 2024 23:50:04 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:6;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:106:\"WordPress.org blog: WP Briefing: Episode 80: Unlocking Your WordPress Potential with Learn WordPress Tools\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:53:\"https://wordpress.org/news/?post_type=podcast&p=17278\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:108:\"https://wordpress.org/news/2024/05/episode-80-unlocking-your-wordpress-potential-with-learn-wordpress-tools/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14725:\"<p>Welcome to another episode of the WordPress Briefing! In this episode, your host, Josepha Haden Chomphosy, delves into the incredible resources available to help you broaden your WordPress expertise. Whether you&#8217;re just starting out or looking to deepen your skillset, these tools and tutorials offer something for everyone. Join us as we explore how Learn WordPress can be your guide on the journey to mastering WordPress, providing invaluable support and community connections along the way.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Credits</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Host:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/chanthaboune/\">Josepha Haden Chomphosy</a><br />Editor:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dustinhartzler/\">Dustin Hartzler</a><br />Logo:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/javiarce/\">Javier Arce</a><br />Production:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bjmcsherry/\">Brett McSherry</a><br />Song: Fearless First by Kevin MacLeod</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Show Notes</h2>\n\n\n\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https://events.wordpress.org/\">WordPress Events </a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/\">Learn WordPress</a>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/online-workshops/\">Online Workshops</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/tutorials/\">Tutorials</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/lesson-plans/\">Lesson Plans</a></li>\n</ul>\n</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Small List of Big Things</strong>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https://europe.wordcamp.org/2024/youth-teens-workshop-at-wordcamp-europe-2024/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">WordCamp Europe Youth &amp; Teen Workshop Registration is Open</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/05/03/roadmap-to-6-6/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Roadmap to WordPress 6.6</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://us.wordcamp.org/2024/introducing-showcase-day/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">WordCamp US 2024 Showcase Day</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/community/2024/04/08/share-your-feedback-with-meetup-com/\">Share Feedback with&nbsp;Meetup.com</a></li>\n</ul>\n</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Have a question you&#8217;d like answered? Submit them to&nbsp;<a href=\"mailto:wpbriefing@WordPress.org\">WPBriefing@WordPress.org</a>.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript</h2>\n\n\n\n<span id=\"more-17278\"></span>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:00:10] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Hello, everyone, and welcome to the WordPress Briefing, the podcast where you can catch quick explanations of the ideas behind the WordPress open source project, some insight into the community that supports it, and get a small list of big things coming up in the next two weeks. I&#8217;m your host, Josepha Haden Chomphosy.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Here we go!</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:00:28] (Intro Music)&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:00:40] <strong>Josepha:</strong> My friends, I don&#8217;t know about where you live, but where I live, it&#8217;s graduation season. Students all across the region are either gearing down for a little bit of a brain break or gearing up for the next big adventure in their lives. And as I watch these students discover the next phases in their lives, whether it looks good or bad, whether it feels fearful or faithful, I can&#8217;t help but think back to my last big change.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:01:07] <strong>Josepha:</strong> The one that brought me here to WordPress. I was working in insurance at the time and investing in a side hustle. And as is often the case with side hustles, discovered that knowing something about marketing myself was going to be key. Now, this next bit, I know that a lot of you will understand immediately. After that realization, I entered a period in my life where I was learning how to invest in my hoped-for side hustle so that I could realize my hoped-for dreams while also having to succeed at the job that I was using to pay my bills.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>By some singular coincidence, I wound up being introduced to the WordPress project, where I found not only the tools it turned out I needed but also people who were willing to help me learn them. For me, during that time, the cost to get access to both the tool and that support was basically zero. Like the whole cost to me was get those WordPress people together in a room to talk about WordPress for an hour.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:02:04] <strong>Josepha:</strong> And that&#8217;s something that I always want to do anyway. I always want to get people together. And if what we&#8217;re talking about is WordPress, and that is what I need to learn about, then so be it. I realize that there is a little bit of privilege in that story and a whole lot of persistence. It&#8217;s not like I discovered it, and overnight, everything worked out well, and perfectly, and correctly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, all of the struggles to get what I got accomplished done aside. One of the things that I love the most about how the WordPress project has evolved over time is that we took that already low-cost, low-barrier concept and did everything in our power to take that low-cost, low-barrier and make it available to as many people as possible in as many points in their journey as possible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, if you&#8217;re at the start of your career or thinking about a bit of a career change, I have some resources for you. Like, stick around. But before we get to the resources, I want to make sure that you hear this. Learning WordPress things, whether that&#8217;s the software itself, or how to run a business supported by WordPress, or how to support other businesses by building them WordPress stuff, learning these skills now is an investment in who you want to be.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:20] <strong>Josepha:</strong> It&#8217;s placing a bet that&#8217;s grounded in what you think you can bring to the world before anyone else might have figured out it&#8217;s what they need in their lives. And when you do that, in WordPress, you&#8217;re accessing and hopefully one day contributing to an equitable framework that doesn&#8217;t require you to understand it in order for you to benefit from it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You can do hard things, and hopefully, these resources make those hard things a little easier. I&#8217;m going to take us through a whirlwind wayfinding list. I&#8217;ll generally be focused on time required and then kind of like necessary actions or context that would be useful for you to know. But remember that your mileage may vary.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:01] <strong>Josepha:</strong> If something sounds close but not perfect, I encourage you to give it a try anyway. The worst that happens is you try something different next time. Or, in the best-case scenario, you create something that other folks also have been missing. There was something that was close for them but not perfect either, and maybe you found the thing that&#8217;s perfect for them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, here is my whirlwind wayfinding list. Let&#8217;s go. Only have one hour a week and prefer a little company in your learning? Check out a meetup event near you. You can find those listed in your dashboard or on events.WordPress.org, but frequently, they happen during the week, after work hours, sometimes they happen on the weekend, they happen like in libraries or coffee shops.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, there are a lot of different ways that these events come together, and surely, there will be something that is the sort of low-key event that you want. But if not, you can always reach out to your local chapter and see how you can get involved with that, how you can help them create a new meetup event.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:02] <strong>Josepha:</strong> The next option, if you only have an hour a week, but you actually don&#8217;t want company but still use some external support, I would check out one of our online workshops. There are cohorts for each workshop, and they&#8217;re run by facilitators so that you can learn and socialize from the comfort and safety of your own space, or if you really are super strapped for time, that can help with like not having to commute anywhere. Next up on our list, feel like you could average an hour a week, but honestly, would prefer it to be in one big chunk? Check out a WordCamp near you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Those are a little bit like the meetups but quite a bit bigger and a lot more content, a lot more learning available, and gets you into a different kind of group of people in your local area. Those happen about once a year per city or region, but if there&#8217;s not one within a comfortable traveling distance for you, it might be a good chance for you to do a mini business trip, or if you&#8217;re doing it as current career development, see if your boss, or your boss self, if you are your own boss, has a continuing education budget available for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:06:08] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Have 30 minutes or so a week and don&#8217;t need any external motivation? On the one hand, I am a little jealous. I sometimes need my own external motivation. But, if that&#8217;s not you, if you can just self-drive forever, then courses over on learn.WordPress.org are just about your speed. We even have a series of learning pathways in development that curate all the courses you need to achieve particular milestones.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You can also help to create those. If you have been all the way through your learning journey and you&#8217;re, like, the most WordPressy WordPresser we&#8217;ve ever seen, and you just want to make sure that other people have the same opportunities you&#8217;ve had, that&#8217;s an excellent opportunity to show up and make sure that the knowledge is still available, still free, still can be accessed.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And finally, if you have unpredictable time and also still comfortable being completely self-driven, We have in the WordPress ecosystem countless videos, blogs, tutorials, and a ton of content creators that are behind them that specialize in teaching WordPress basics but also leveling up existing knowledge. And if your type of existing knowledge is in the, like, gathering the network to succeed, sort of area. We even have podcasts and blogs that are dedicated to the more businessy side of WordPress, how to make this function in the WordPress ecosystem.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:32] <strong>Josepha:</strong> As always, I&#8217;ll have links for everything in the show notes—just myriad links because this isn&#8217;t even all that we need to share with you today. And I&#8217;m going to say this last thing one more time because I really, really mean it like a whole, whole lot. I know it&#8217;s hard, bordering on impossible sometimes, to carve out time to learn new things. But when you&#8217;re ready to invest in yourself, I&#8217;m pretty sure that these resources will be here to support your hoped-for dreams.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:58] (Music interlude)&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:05] <strong>Josepha:</strong> And that brings us now to our small list of big things. First up is speaking of learning, speaking of investing in your future. WordCamp Europe has a youth and teen workshop going on. The registration for that is still open. It is open for students aged 10 to 16. It&#8217;s gonna be a hands-on workshop. They&#8217;ll get to build their own website with WordPress and then explore some cutting-edge technology from VR to AI and learn essential internet safety skills. We&#8217;re going to be running that on June 13th. It will be in both English and Italian. I will leave a link to the registration in the show notes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And the next thing on our list is pretty much related. It&#8217;s kind of related. At WordCamp US this year, we have a Showcase Day. Now, this is new to WordCamp US, and it&#8217;s all about pushing the boundaries of what WordPress can do. It will feature presentations, demos, and technical workshops for all kinds of projects, from high-profile, large-scale builds with innovative integrations to more niche creative implementations that still have a big impact. Submissions are now open for it. If you are working on something that is really cool and uses WordPress and want to show it off to the WordPress community, wander over there, submit your project; let&#8217;s take a look at it and see if we can get it into that showcase lineup, but if you are looking for inspiration about what WordPress can do, if you&#8217;re still figuring out how this can work the best for you, that&#8217;s going to be a great opportunity to look at some unusual implementations so that you can get an idea for how big this thing can get.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:43] <strong>Josepha:</strong> And just some tactical things. The next two things on my small of big things are two tactical items. One is that WordPress 6.6 is on the move; as always, we have Beta 1 scheduled pretty soon here. So, dig into our priority features. I will leave a link to the roadmap for WordPress 6.6. We&#8217;re targeting, if I recall correctly, middle of July for that release. And so it&#8217;s coming up faster than you think. And we would absolutely love for you to come in, test the Beta, tell us what&#8217;s broken so that we can fix it before it gets out. We can&#8217;t fix the things if you don&#8217;t tell us they&#8217;re broken. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:17] <strong>Josepha:</strong> And then the final thing on our small list of big things is that speaking of not being able to fix things that we don&#8217;t know are broken. So, we use meetup.com to manage all of our meetup series. Well, most of our meetup series anyway, but they are planning to invest in some product improvements, and they have asked for feedback from the WordPress community. Historically, we are one of the largest, most active communities on their platform. And so, if you could fill out the feedback form, if you&#8217;ve been to a meetup, or if you tried to find a meetup using meetup.com and did not succeed, that&#8217;s probably also relevant information. I&#8217;ll have a link to that here as well. It will go directly to their product team. And hopefully we&#8217;ll see some product improvements for the WordPress community in the future.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:01] <strong>Josepha:</strong> And that, my friends, is your small list of big things. Don&#8217;t forget to follow us, follow me on your favorite podcast app, or subscribe directly on WordPress.org/news. You&#8217;ll get a friendly reminder whenever there&#8217;s a new episode, and if you liked what you heard today, share it with a fellow WordPresser. Or, if you had questions about what you heard, you can share those with me at WPBriefing@WordPress.org. I&#8217;m your host, Josepha Haden Chomphosy. Thanks again, and I&#8217;ll see you in a couple of weeks.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:29] (Music outro)&nbsp;</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Mon, 27 May 2024 12:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Brett McSherry\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:7;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:83:\"Do The Woo Community: The Next Gen in WordPress with Allison Dye and Sophia DeRosia\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=83856\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:82:\"https://dothewoo.io/the-next-gen-in-wordpress-with-allison-dye-and-sophia-derosia/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:177:\"The episode features our new hosts Sophia and Allison discussing their early exposure to WordPress, personal experiences, skill development, community impact, and future topics.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Mon, 27 May 2024 08:55:06 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:8;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:11:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:1:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:79:\"HeroPress: HeroPress in Spain, Accessibility and Inclusivity at WordCamp Europe\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:29:\"https://heropress.com/?p=6827\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:201:\"https://heropress.com/heropress-in-spain-accessibility-and-inclusivity-at-wordcamp-europe/#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=heropress-in-spain-accessibility-and-inclusivity-at-wordcamp-europe\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:7063:\"<img width=\"1024\" height=\"768\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/4436637dfd73554f4.37436592-1024x768.jpg\" class=\"attachment-large size-large wp-post-image\" alt=\"A pale fish with large eyes and rounded fins swimming in clear blue water with a few tiny bubbles visible around it.\" /><div class=\"wp-block-kadence-spacer aligncenter kt-block-spacer-6827_da78c2-d2\"><div class=\"kt-block-spacer kt-block-spacer-halign-center\"><hr class=\"kt-divider\" /></div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"kb-row-layout-wrap kb-row-layout-id6827_e5d91a-c4 alignnone kt-row-has-bg wp-block-kadence-rowlayout\"><div class=\"kt-row-column-wrap kt-has-1-columns kt-row-layout-equal kt-tab-layout-inherit kt-mobile-layout-row kt-row-valign-top kb-theme-content-width\">\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-column kadence-column6827_5128b0-a5 inner-column-1\"><div class=\"kt-inside-inner-col\">\n<h2 class=\"kt-adv-heading6827_f51751-1b wp-block-kadence-advancedheading\">HeroPress At WordCamp Europe 2024</h2>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://europe.wordcamp.org/2024/accessibility-and-inclusivity/\"><img width=\"1024\" height=\"296\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/wceu_updates-1024x296.jpg\" alt=\"WCEU Latest Updates\" class=\"wp-image-6680\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"kt-adv-heading6827_acae33-d3 wp-block-kadence-advancedheading\">Accessibility and Inclusivity</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>The organizing team at WCEU this year have made a great effort to make the event inclusive and accessible. <a href=\"https://europe.wordcamp.org/2024/accessibility-and-inclusivity/\">They&#8217;ve created a page</a> which details information about the venue, transportation, food, allergies, etc. for a very wide range of people, from attendees who are deaf, hard-of-hearing or sound sensitive, attendees who are blind, partially-sighted, photo or light sensitive, and attendees with autism, anxiety or neurodivergence. All of this in addition to solutions for people who move around differently.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Who are we going to see at WCEU? Stop by the <a href=\"https://heropress.com/slack/\">HeroPress Slack</a> and let is know, I&#8217;d love to touch base with you!</p>\n</div></div>\n\n</div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-spacer aligncenter kt-block-spacer-6827_dc153e-a2\"><div class=\"kt-block-spacer kt-block-spacer-halign-center\"><hr class=\"kt-divider\" /></div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"kb-row-layout-wrap kb-row-layout-id6827_ab1532-a3 alignnone kt-row-has-bg wp-block-kadence-rowlayout\"><div class=\"kt-row-column-wrap kt-has-1-columns kt-row-layout-equal kt-tab-layout-inherit kt-mobile-layout-row kt-row-valign-top kb-theme-content-width\">\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-column kadence-column6827_a7d06e-af inner-column-1\"><div class=\"kt-inside-inner-col\">\n<h2 class=\"kt-adv-heading6827_823314-e0 wp-block-kadence-advancedheading\"><a href=\"https://heropress.com/\">HeroPress.com</a> &#8211; <a href=\"https://heropress.com/essays/from-blogging-to-wordpress-communities-a-bolivian-tale/\"><a href=\"https://heropress.com/essays/discover-where-you-belong/\">Discover Where You Belong</a></a></h2>\n\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image is-style-default\">\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/essays/discover-where-you-belong/\"><img width=\"287\" height=\"300\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/angela_jin-287x300.jpg\" alt=\"Angela Jin\" class=\"wp-image-3468\" /></a></div>\n\n\n<p>Angela Jin wandered the world looking for her place in it until she found WordPress. It allowed her to move to Spain and live the life she wanted.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>I saw WordPress as a way for anyone to have a voice online, and as a result, I was also drawn to the idea of creating these tools that non-developers, like myself, could use in an increasingly online world.</em></p>\n\n\n\n<p>Angela&#8217;s essay is <a href=\"https://heropress.com/essays/discover-where-you-belong/\">available</a> on <a href=\"https://heropress.com\">HeroPress.com</a>.</p>\n</div></div>\n\n</div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-spacer aligncenter kt-block-spacer-6827_3fd7d6-9d\"><div class=\"kt-block-spacer kt-block-spacer-halign-center\"><hr class=\"kt-divider\" /></div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"kb-row-layout-wrap kb-row-layout-id6827_0c138d-76 alignnone kt-row-has-bg wp-block-kadence-rowlayout\"><div class=\"kt-row-column-wrap kt-has-1-columns kt-row-layout-equal kt-tab-layout-inherit kt-mobile-layout-row kt-row-valign-top kb-theme-content-width\">\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-column kadence-column6827_2101a6-71 inner-column-1\"><div class=\"kt-inside-inner-col\">\n<h2 class=\"kt-adv-heading6827_c64b75-39 wp-block-kadence-advancedheading\"><a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com\">WP Podcasts</a></h2>\n\n\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com\"><img src=\"https://heropressnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/pocket_casts_single_315.png\" alt=\"Pocket Casts image\" class=\"wp-image-4316\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<p>There were <em>Twenty-four</em> WordPress podcast episodes released this week! Noy only that, we&#8217;ve passed 13,000 episodes!</p>\n\n\n\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https://elarroyo.dev/episodio-61-la-verdad-que-te-estan-ocultando-sobre-el-hosting/#new_tab\">Episodio 61 – La verdad que te están ocultando sobre el hosting</a> from <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com/podcast/el-arroyo-dev/\">El Arroyo Dev</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://underrepresented-in-tech-1.castos.com/episodes/diversity-isnt-for-the-naked-eye#new_tab\">Diversity Isn’t for the Naked Eye</a> from <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com/podcast/underrepresented-in-tech/\">Underrepresented in Tech</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://remkusdevries.com/podcast/from-failed-blogs-to-head-of-content-this-is-emma-youngs-journey/#new_tab\">From Failed Blogs to Head of Content. This is Emma Young’s Journey</a> from <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com/podcast/within-wordpress/\">Within WordPress</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-100-nasa-wordpress-block-editor/#new_tab\">Gutenberg Changelog #100 – NASA’s New Website – the Switch to WordPress and Block Editor</a> from <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog/\">Gutenberg Changelog</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>There are new episodes every single day, so be sure to stop by <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com\">WPPodcasts.com</a> and search for things that interest you!</p>\n</div></div>\n\n</div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-spacer\"></div>\n\n\n\n<p>The banner at the top of this post is a <a href=\"https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/\">CC0</a> licensed <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/4436637dfd/\">photo</a> by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/author/ajithrn/\">Ajith R N</a> from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s it for this week! If you&#8217;d like to get this post in your email every week, <a href=\"https://heropressnetwork.com/newsletter\">make sure you sign up</a>!</p>\n<p>The post <a href=\"https://heropress.com/heropress-in-spain-accessibility-and-inclusivity-at-wordcamp-europe/\">HeroPress in Spain, Accessibility and Inclusivity at WordCamp Europe</a> appeared first on <a href=\"https://heropress.com\">HeroPress</a>.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 24 May 2024 17:03:48 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:9;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:83:\"Do The Woo Community: Building Community and Driving Innovation with Mohammed Moeez\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=83715\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:82:\"https://dothewoo.io/building-community-and-driving-innovation-with-mohammed-moeez/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:133:\"Moeez from Cloudways shares insights on community engagement, product development, and navigating challenges in the hosting industry.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 24 May 2024 08:31:52 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:10;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:94:\"WPTavern: #121 – Alexander Gilmanov on Transitioning From Developer to Entrepreneur. Part 2.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:48:\"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=155933\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:106:\"https://wptavern.com/podcast/121-alexander-gilmanov-on-transitioning-from-developer-to-entrepreneur-part-2\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:50984:\"Transcript<div>\n<p>[00:00:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, one person&#8217;s story of the struggles of transitioning from a freelancer into an agency manager, but this is part two. If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the</p>\n\n\n\n<p>podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com forward slash feed forward slash podcast. And you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com forward slash contact forward slash jukebox, and use the form there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So on the podcast today we have Alexander Gilmanov. Alex comes to us today from Belgrade, Serbia. He&#8217;s a full stack developer with a rich heritage of freelance and agency work. His company officially launched in 2014, and they&#8217;ve continued to work with clients as well as creating a range of WordPress plugins and their own SaaS apps, mainly in the online booking space.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Slightly usually for this podcast, I decided to break the content up into two parts. You can hear the first episode, from last week, by going to wptavern.com and searching for episode 120.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Alexander brings a wealth of experience from his journey within the WordPress ecosystem. And this podcast is all about his transitioning from being a freelancer towards a more managerial role, now overseeing a team of 43 employees.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Alexander gets into the intricacies of team management, emphasizing the effective use of tools like Google Suite, Slack, Jira, Notion, Confluence, and GitLab.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We begin with Alexander reflecting upon his evolving role, from an individual contributor, to a leader. Responsible for a midsize team. He talks about the lessons learned along the way, particularly trying to steer clear of negative motivation tactics. He now advocates for positive reinforcement, and fostering a culture of trust and calm, where mistakes are viewed as opportunities for growth.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We then chat about the complexities of balancing automated and human support, and Alexander offers his perspective on managing support requests effectively whilst maintaining high customer satisfaction.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>He also explains about the structure of his team, telling us about the benefits of smaller, independent teams, and the need for coordination across departments, such as product development, marketing, and support.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Towards the end, we talk about the WordPress community and Alexander contrast this with other industries, sharing insights from events and conferences that have shaped his approach to team management.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>He mentions learning from established companies like Visual Composer or WP Bakery, noting the openness and knowledge sharing that define the WordPress ecosystem.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Finally Alexander underscores the importance of building the right team. He discusses the need to recognize when team members are not a good fit, and now it&#8217;s not always realistic to expect every employee to be the perfect fit for his way of doing things. Seeking the right people and learning continuously forms a key part of his managerial philosophy.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re interested in team management and the dynamics of the WordPress community, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com forward slash podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>A quick note before we begin, Alexander&#8217;s audio was not great at the start, but I&#8217;ve done my best to clean it up, and it is more than listenable.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so, without further delay I bring you Alexander Gilmanov.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I am joined on the podcast once again by Alexander Gilmanov. Hello. How are you doing?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:43] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Hi. I&#8217;m doing good. How are you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, really great. So, just to give you some context, dear listener, if you haven&#8217;t listened to the previous episode of this podcast, if you&#8217;ve missed a week, then it&#8217;s probably a good idea to go back because this is part two, kind of unexpectedly actually.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>When Alexander and I began our conversation for the podcast, just the intention was to get it all done in one hit. And then the conversation got away from us. I was really interested in it, and so we kept talking. And about halfway through what we intended to cover, I said, let&#8217;s do it as a two-parter. So that&#8217;s where we&#8217;re at, at the moment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, if you were to replay last week&#8217;s episode, Alexander will be able to introduce himself. So we won&#8217;t go through that whole process again. But what you&#8217;ll hear there is Alexander&#8217;s journey from being a freelancer, to a more managerial role, and the different things that he went through in his professional journey, in order to get where he is today.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So it was the story of his work life, you could encapsulate it as. And the bit that we never got to was all of the bits and pieces that make up the work life. How to do things, and the decisions that Alexander has made over the years, mistakes that have been made, and things that have been improved and, what have you. So that&#8217;s where we&#8217;re going to go for the next little episode. Let&#8217;s see where this goes to. But firstly, thank you for joining me again. I really appreciate it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:06:05] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Thank you for having me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:06:07] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, no, you&#8217;re very welcome. So we&#8217;ve got you at the point where you are now a project manager. Your career has ended up with a 43, I think you said, person company. It&#8217;s a lot of responsibility, and decisions will have been made on that journey. Things will have been done badly, some things will have been done brilliantly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Let&#8217;s just go through the bits and the pieces that you think make you good at your job. Now, I&#8217;m not suggesting that you believe yourself to be brilliant at your job or anything, no big headedness here. But what are some of the kernels, the bits of wisdom that you could give us about managing a company, a web agency, with 43 people? And we can go in any direction you like.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:06:46] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> While we were phrasing the question, you already mentioned one of the things that was on my mind because, exactly, many things are done, were done maybe wisely. Some things were mistakes, and I can&#8217;t consider myself to be a perfect project manager, or founder, or CEO. And I think this is one of the key things, like never to go to any extreme about thinking I&#8217;m doing things perfectly, and this is the only way to do it, and not to go to other extreme.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Some people have this tendency of blaming themselves for every mistake, seeing it as failure, complete failure, something that cannot be redone. Almost never in business life it happens like that. But the attitude about the problem sometimes can create bigger problem than the problem itself. So that&#8217;s one thing that came to my mind as you were speaking. Try to stay calm about things, about failures, about success. Everything is learning. Everything will pass.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you have moments where you didn&#8217;t obey that little golden rule though? Do you have moments where the anxiety, the stress, I don&#8217;t know, the financial consequences of decisions you made, all felt like it was getting a bit too much? I think it&#8217;s easy to tell yourself after the fact, be kind to yourself, but reality is, when the clients are not happy, when the projects are not coming to fruition in a timely way, I think it&#8217;s all too easy to get into blaming, and anger, and all of those kind of things.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:10] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Yes. I think one of my early mistakes, not failure like mistakes, but one of the wrong way of approaching things was using anxiety and fear as a motivator. Because for the first year or two, as I think I mentioned last time, we were depending on each and every project, each client. It created a lot of tension.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I didn&#8217;t like it, but when you feel constant stress, stress also gives you some adrenaline, some power, and then you can go for hours and hours. Long term, stress, and fear, and anxiety is a bad motivator, because you don&#8217;t feel good about those projects. You don&#8217;t create positive energy in the company, you exhaust yourself.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is something I realised maybe after two years of running the company, and I started restructuring my way of thinking about it. And this is something I would advise entrepreneurs, young founders, and young managers to avoid, because many people tend to do that. They start creating, they start exaggerating potential scenarios, potential problems that might happen.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>What happens if this project fails? What happens if this client cancels? We are all doomed then. And let me stay until 2:00 AM today, and do everything possible. Okay, this gives you like short term boost, and short term motivation and fuel, but long term it&#8217;s going to exhaust you, and people around you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It can be very easy though to fall into that trap, can&#8217;t it? Because I think in some situations, fear, anxiety, and even anger, they are so close at hand. You know, they&#8217;re the natural thing that comes out in certain scenarios, especially fear. And to be calm, and to be equanimous, and to have that capability to take a step back and see that probably the doom scenario is not necessarily the scenario that&#8217;s going to come out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I guess if you, as the leader of the company, are exemplifying what the company stands for, and the way to behave in the company, if that&#8217;s the way that you are handling yourself, then in a way you are giving permission to everybody lower down to start to freak out, and believe that everything&#8217;s going wrong, and become angry and what have you. So changing that behavior to be more calm, there&#8217;ll be a knock on effect with your employees, and probably a lot calmer, and a lot more productive as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:20] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Yes, exactly. Allowing yourself to make mistakes is, I think, crucial. Being too relaxed about this is also important, but if you are setting expectations for your team, and you are too upset about every single mistake, it&#8217;s going to create a lot of stress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I did this mistake, as I said. In the early days, I was looking at all the successful examples, successful entrepreneurs, companies that have success stories because all you see online are success stories, and you think they have everything figured out. And then you look at your own company and you see all those things that other people don&#8217;t see from the inside, all the problems, maybe things not implemented to 100%, things you know can be done better. And you start blaming yourself and people around you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For the first years, I also believed in negative motivation too much. I was trying to establish some sort of penalties if something isn&#8217;t delivered on time, try to scare people if we are not going to deliver the project by day. I don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s going to happen with the company, something like that. And this is really a wrong thing, I think now, as of today, to do for a leader, because you&#8217;re not creating trust.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>People maybe will, as also short term, do more. Maybe they will become more motivated, deliver more, because they&#8217;re at fear for their positions. Long term, especially if you&#8217;re building products of your own, like deadlines, penalties, trying to scare people, creating anxiety, it&#8217;s poison long term. You&#8217;re not going to get a team you can trust, team to trust you. You&#8217;re not creating the ownership feel you want from your key employees.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:58] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, and presumably you are coming to work not feeling great about anything as well. You are at the top of the tree there, and it all looks bad all the way from top to bottom. That&#8217;s really interesting though. I&#8217;m no psychologist, I don&#8217;t really know how the brain reacts to fear, as opposed to positivity.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But my intuition is that, if you are told that you are doing a good job more frequently than you are told that your work is not up to scratch, and there&#8217;s this deadline coming, and there&#8217;s these penalties you&#8217;re about to fall into the trap of receiving, my guess is that you&#8217;re just going to enjoy that work experience, and be much more motivated to make the job successful, if you are constantly being praised and rewarded.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:39] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Yes, you need the right people. Some people that would be a brilliant employee, for some other company it will not be perfect match for your team, for your project, for the combination that you&#8217;re building.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yes, I wanted to say it&#8217;s a good skill you need to learn to identify those people. One of the early mistakes I did, I tried to change people. I tried to either adjust the way we do things as a company to certain people, or try to adjust certain people, and get into something which is really not job of a manager. Change the habits, change the mindset, change the values of a person.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Sometimes when there is no match, the best solution for everyone to part ways and to look for a different person. Also, it&#8217;s a common mistake, and I&#8217;m also guilty of doing it, is to punish the members that do everything, and punish the rights team members for something the team members haven&#8217;t done right. By introducing penalties, by scaring the team in group emails, or something like that, but I don&#8217;t do anymore.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:13:39] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That&#8217;s good to hear. One of the things that you mentioned there was how easy it is to assume that everybody&#8217;s getting everything right. To look online, and with the best will in the world, more or less everybody paints best picture of themselves online. Not many people are going to go out there and share all of the things that are going wrong in their business or their life. So you do have this very skewed impression.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You know, if you head onto YouTube and look at management videos, how to manage a web design agency. There&#8217;ll be loads of different ideas, and maybe some of them are just not going to fit with your way of doing things. And so that leads me to this next thought, which is, basically, where did you learn to make these changes in the way that you manage things?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Was it an incremental thing? Did you have some sort of guru, or course, or tutor that you went to? Or was it merely a case of, over the years, making mistakes and looking and thinking, okay, I need to change that one little thing, and then another few months goes by and, okay, I need to change that one little thing? Where did you get your inspirations from?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:38] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> It&#8217;s an incremental thing, and it&#8217;s an ongoing process. In the early days of transitioning to a manager, I really almost physically felt this hunger for knowledge and mentorship. And I used each and every opportunity I could. I was writing emails, and as we are in the WordPress ecosystem, I can even maybe mention a couple of companies that were really, really helpful.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For example, Visual Composer, WP Bakery, they were my early role model. They were very successful in the marketplaces where we also started selling our plugins. And I was looking up to them. I got the inspiration from their websites, from their social media. And one day I took the courage and wrote them a message through a contact form telling them, I really admire what you do, and I would love to share experiences.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I received an answer from their CEO the next day. And he was very kind, and he answered many questions. And then in one of the WordCamps a couple of years after, I saw that they&#8217;re attending it. And, again, I wrote them a message and we got to know each other, and they were all very open about how they do things, what they do right, what they did wrong. And this was something that, it was just one acquaintance, and just one step I took without any hope that someone will answer, which answered a lot of things that on my mind.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Some things were just, you need proof that you&#8217;re not doing something wrong. Sometimes you will try doing, let&#8217;s say Google ads or Facebook ads, and they don&#8217;t produce any results, and you think, maybe I&#8217;m just no good at it, maybe others have everything figured out. But then you talk to other, two, three people in the industry, and you see that it&#8217;s actually a common thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Also Sujay from Brainstorm Force, Astra, I keep mentioning him. Getting to know him was a very insightful experience. He would share many of the things that they have done, that they changed in their journey. Some of the findings that they had, for example, switching from selling plugins on the marketplace, towards selling plugins directly on the website. It was something that was on my mind for years. I thought we just can&#8217;t afford it. We don&#8217;t have the traffic, we don&#8217;t have the demand generation on our end, and we depend so hugely on this marketplace.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And he shared, I think even the revenue numbers, things other people wouldn&#8217;t share in different industries. He showed me the, you will drop for certain percentage when you move away from the marketplace, but then it&#8217;ll give you a push to build your own customer base, and you can work with them better, you can nurture this better. Eventually we&#8217;ll recover, and long-term effect, compound effect, will be much better.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Such interactions were maybe the mentoring sessions. I didn&#8217;t have a mentor I could talk to. But also, I tried to use every opportunity I could. I was attending events, I was attending talks, conferences. Sometimes it was just basic stuff like how to do accounting, how to fire people, how to hire people. And from every conferences, webinar, education piece, I took away something.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Sometimes it wasn&#8217;t much, the event itself, but I would meet a person that is maybe in a different industry, but at a similar role. And I would ask them like, we are really struggling with managing all this different stuff in the office, bulbs keep going out, and we need paper towels and, I don&#8217;t know, toilet paper, things like that. And we already have 15 people, but still there is not enough time to hire full-time office manager.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And at the same time, I feel it&#8217;s not wise for me to keep doing all this as a CEO and founder. I&#8217;m wasting time for trivial things. They would just give me advice how they maybe hired someone who is combining office management and HR, or accounting. I never thought about it this way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:17] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> One of the things which I keep coming back to, you may have strong intuitions about this, you may agree, you may disagree, I don&#8217;t know. I do think that being a part of an open source project is different in some way. I don&#8217;t know what that is, I can&#8217;t put my finger on it. But the willingness to communicate with, in some cases, direct competitors is really quite startling.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You know, you go to a major WordCamp, and there will be all these companies who are directly competing against each other. Let&#8217;s take hosting, for example, that would be a good example. They&#8217;re all there, and obviously they&#8217;re pitching their product, and they&#8217;ve got their booth, or what have you. But when it&#8217;s all over, and the evening rolls around, they&#8217;re all having a bit of a chat and sharing information.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>There may be some things which are confidential, but I do think that making use of those connections at those kind of events is really useful. And that was very surprising to me when I first turned up to a WordPress event, that all of these competitors would be quite willing to talk through their problems. And you may be not competing with the companies that you&#8217;ve mentioned, I&#8217;m not entirely sure.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But still very nice of those people, to take time out of their schedule to give you a bit of a leg up, and some tutoring, and some mentoring. And I&#8217;m not really sure that that would happen in every kind of industry. Like I said, I don&#8217;t know why that is, but I have an intuition that that&#8217;s a thing. So I don&#8217;t know if you want to comment on that, but I&#8217;m just offering it up.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:45] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> I fully agree. It&#8217;s very different in WordPress. I had some experience with the agency work, and with some industries. We had contact with as an agency, and also I attended lots of SaaS conferences. The overall atmosphere is very different. And competitors, they would be, of course, polite and professional towards each other. Last WordCamp in Taipei, there was a picture, like BB Builder, Divi and Elementor walk into a bar, and three guys sharing a beer, it might be even forbidden by corporate policy.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:20:17] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I think it would. I really think it would, and so that is curious. The piece of the jigsaw that I can&#8217;t quite understand, and I think it&#8217;s what makes open source such an interesting and friendly environment. Again, dear listener, if you&#8217;re listening to this and you haven&#8217;t been to one of these events before, I think it&#8217;s worth a shot. You know, if there&#8217;s parts of your business that you are not that sure about, obviously you could hop in a contact form and hope like you did, that you would get a reply.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But turning up to some of these events, and seeing if anybody in the room has had the same experience, or is trying to figure out the same thing that you are, is really, really valuable. We call it the hallway track, and it&#8217;s the bit where everybody just hangs out outside of the presentations, and the bits and the pieces that have been organised.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Okay, let&#8217;s move on to some of the things that you&#8217;ve shared. Now, I said in the last episode that Alexander had created this Google Doc, not necessarily for me, but he shared it with me, and it was really a dumping ground, I think you&#8217;d explained, you were just letting your thoughts out into text. And I&#8217;m going to sort of latch onto a few bits and pieces.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So this is some of the process stuff, some of the things that you&#8217;ve figured make your business run more smoothly. And one of the things which is right at the top, and I think you mentioned this quite a few times, making sure that your projects and your products are always with the target audience in mind.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, I know that&#8217;s easy to say, right? Okay, always think about the audience, we must think about the audience. That&#8217;s obvious, right? Tell me about that. Why have you put that as right at the top, and you keep repeating it? What&#8217;s going on there?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:21:46] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> It&#8217;s sort of a mantra, I think every product builder needs to return to. Everybody knows that. I think every product company would have, like we are not building it for beautiful UX. We are not building it for ourselves, we are building it for the end customer. And the end customer, as they say, they don&#8217;t want to buy a drill, they want to put a picture on their wall, or they want holes in their walls.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And because you get carried away by the process, and it&#8217;s never ending. I know that I&#8217;m sharing this with you like I&#8217;m a guru of that, but tomorrow I may get driven away by working with a designer again. So if a large percentage of your customers is telling you that your product is doing something wrong, and you know that it doesn&#8217;t, they&#8217;re right because you&#8217;re building it for them. And it&#8217;s so easy, and for different segments it&#8217;s so easy to just right it off, especially for support or something like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You know that every day you&#8217;re going to receive a hundred of new requests, you feel them as never ending. Support agents, it&#8217;s a very tough part of our job, and it&#8217;s very easy for them to get into that mindset. Those guys keep annoying me, they keep writing these repeating stupid questions. You start seeing them in your head as something, as a crowd of people, and they keep asking the same question, you think they&#8217;re all somehow connected. And you need to repeatedly wake yourself up because you act as a company, work for those people, you exist because of those people, and you need to make them happy</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:16] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You know, it&#8217;s really interesting because, I&#8217;m sure you have done the same thing that I&#8217;m about to describe, that you have used some service, product, whatever it may be, and you&#8217;ve written in with a suggestion or support, and you get something which feels angry back. It&#8217;s jarring, isn&#8217;t it?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Very quickly, you have a very negative impression of the company. And all it took was for one employee, who maybe is a bit fed up with their job, or was having a bad day, or whatever that might be, and you are skewed. And I suppose, in a sense, the best company on earth would be a company where you could sell the product and have no users. Nobody would write in. Nobody would need any support. Every feature that you shipped would be welcomed, and everything that you didn&#8217;t ship, nobody needed.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But that&#8217;s just not how it is. You have users, and unless you&#8217;re actually making them the core then, what&#8217;s the point? But how do you make sure that you are servicing your users? Is it talking to people at events, people that are using your product? Is it just inspecting the support tickets periodically? What&#8217;s the process, which means that you are fairly confident that you are listening to your user base?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:24:28] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> It&#8217;s one thing where I want to highlight, you never can do it 100% perfect, you just said yourself. And in this part, I don&#8217;t want to sound like we have it all figured out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:24:38] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> No, I understand, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:24:39] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> We are constantly working on improving it. We know how we would do this in the ideal scenario, but the resources aren&#8217;t there yet. We would love to have 24/7 support. We would love to have three tiers of support. We love to have a real time sync between all the departments. And we are going towards this ideal solution but, you know, we also have restrictions.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>43 people company is a lot of people, but still not enough for everything to be ideal. And getting back to the question, we try our best to do all of this. We have open channels for people to suggest features, and vote for features. But we also try to be honest with them that, this is not how we determine the roadmap, how we define the roadmap.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Sometimes people get angry. They say, this feature has 800 votes, and it&#8217;s still not in the process of development, it doesn&#8217;t look like rocket science to build. For example, hotel booking, into the booking plugin that we have. From the outside it doesn&#8217;t, but from the inside, when you have all these other things going on, it&#8217;s tough to even give estimate on when we start working on this.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, yes, we have this channel. We are trying to build communities. This is something that we don&#8217;t do good enough, and I think we should do a much better job at it. Communities in Facebook, we launched a Discord channel where people can communicate and help each other, even if our support manager is not there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maybe they already had question about how to configure something, and then some other user can help. And I&#8217;m also in this community, and from time to time I would monitor and see like what are the common frustrations. And I also try to appear at least once per month in this feature vault system, and monitor what&#8217;s most requested, what are the frustrations, because unfortunately frustrations will happen. You can&#8217;t keep everybody happy, even though we want to.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you encourage your staff to use your product? So let&#8217;s take the example of the booking system, Amelia. Now, I&#8217;m guessing that a proportion of your staff will have no need to use a booking plugin, because they&#8217;ve already got a job, and they&#8217;re not booking out their time, or whatever it may be that that plugin most frequently gets used for.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I guess, unless you know the ins and outs of that plugin, and the pain points that a real user experiences, you don&#8217;t really understand. You haven&#8217;t got under the skin of what that thing is, and it&#8217;s too easy to just sit there and be the developer. I&#8217;m working on the technology, I&#8217;m working on the code to make it work, look it works. Yeah, but nobody needs that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Do you encourage your staff to use it and implement And I know that you&#8217;ve got a variety of different booking solutions, as well as a data tables management suite. We&#8217;ll put the links in the show notes. So yeah, do you get your staff to use what you produce?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:20] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Yes we do. As you said, not all of them need booking solutions. But for example, myself, I have a booking page, where people can book a call with me when needed. By configuring it, found a couple of bugs, and issues, and couple of inconsistencies while developing something, it seemed like a logical scenario, but when I tried to configure it and use it for myself, I saw that, okay, it doesn&#8217;t quite follow the thought process.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Also what we do is, all the managerial roles, project managers, team managers, team lead of the project managers, and myself, whenever we receive, and because there are so many channels, every now and then certain support request or comment would reach us, somewhere through the contact form, or in a comment somewhere in the social media or in private messages.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Customer would reach out to us with a support request, or some comment, or some concern. If we have the time, we would try first to answer, and take care of these customers ourselves, because then it helps for example, to keep the hand on the pulse, as we say it. Not necessarily this one customer would have the most typical problem, it helps me to remember what I just said a couple of minutes ago.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We are building this for the customers. They&#8217;re not here because of us. We are here because of them, and this is what we do. And then it helps us to see the real use case scenarios, scenarios we would never even think about. Language schools, yoga studios. Many, many different use cases.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Very logical sometimes for them to request a feature we don&#8217;t have, and we would never even think about such a feature, because we had a totally different use case in mind when we were building something.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:28:57] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, a room full of 43 developers and associated managers, you&#8217;re not going to have all the intuitions, are you? There&#8217;s bound to be somebody that comes very left field, and suggests something which, you never know as well, do you? It may be that somebody in a conversation in a Facebook group just says something, and that just launches your business off in a completely different direction, and you can pivot. So I think you&#8217;ve got to be open to those things.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Can I just ask, I don&#8217;t want to get into this particularly, but you were talking about support there, and some of the mechanisms that you&#8217;ve got for support. So just very, very briefly, what do you think about the sort of rising trend to automate support?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>More and more I see that, if I go to a website, for a while it was Intercom, that was a new thing. There was that little bubble in the bottom corner and you could type something in, and you would either get a reply over email or you&#8217;d get somebody in real time writing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now we see this trend towards AI, where the AI tries to be the go-between. I get the feeling that it&#8217;s to protect the company from the support burden. Often it&#8217;s just to insulate, can we get the answer to them before we need a human involved? But I also have this notion that, for most people they find it quite frustrating. So it&#8217;s entirely up to you if you want to answer that or not, but I just thought that was curious.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:30:10] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Yeah, it can be frustrating. And I think the most important part is to always keep the option open to, forward it to a real person. Of course, yeah, that&#8217;s the conflict of the paradox, whatever you want to put it. You don&#8217;t want to invest too much in tier one support because, indeed, a lot of people don&#8217;t want to browse through the data and the knowledge base that is already there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>A lot of frequently asked questions already have a very detailed answer somewhere online, but they don&#8217;t want to dig through this, even if it&#8217;s two clicks. It&#8217;s always easier for them to ask a question. And for this, AI can be pretty good. And it can be really frustrating. But what I would mention there is that, sometimes a real human can be even more frustrating, because sometimes they can get more, I don&#8217;t want to say any bad words, but they can give you answers that are even more off than AI would give you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And with some very large corporations, I don&#8217;t want to call the names but, for example, for configuring some pay per click ads, I wanted specific support. And first, I had to wait to be switched from an AI that doesn&#8217;t know anything to a real person. And then this person had also completely no idea. They tried to send me the same copy paste template replies, and I wasted an hour of my time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:31:27] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I&#8217;m not sure. We&#8217;ll have to keep an eye on this debate, but it does seem like that kind of support system is going to the way that things are done in the future.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Okay, so we talked about the relationship between your company and the users. Let&#8217;s just turn for the next 10 minutes or so to the sort of structure that you&#8217;ve got within your own company, and how you manage that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We don&#8217;t need to go through the evolution of it, but right now you&#8217;ve got 43 people. Just tell us what your company looks like, in terms of how you&#8217;ve got that cake layered from top right to bottom. Where have you got to? By employee number 43, what does it look like, and how do you have people, working underneath other people? What does it all look like?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:04] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> An ongoing process. Not to take too much time, I will just share my current take on high level, how we try to structure things. First of all, we try to keep teams at five to seven people maximum, for them to be able to sync with each other. And this is the number, I think everything higher than five is hard for a manager to follow. For one person to know what each and every one team member are doing, if there is 10 people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>At the moment we have product teams and we try to structure those as almost mini businesses, within our overall business. For example, a developer that works on wpDataTables wouldn&#8217;t have tasks to deliver on some other products, and the project manager in this team would also only focus on their own product development.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>What we still share, to a certain extent, is the support or customer happiness team is shared between three different products, mostly for redundancy when someone is away, or there are so many tickets that the assigned person can&#8217;t cover all of them. We need to have redundancies so all the support agents are onboarded to all the products. As we evolve, we want to also have the support team within the product team, so that it would be more or less independent from each other.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And we also share the marketing team. Also not an ideal setup. This is something which is optimal for now, given the resources. I think that it&#8217;s perfect if the marketing is also focused on one product only. This is something that is still luxury as of now.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We are also sharing the marketing team at the moment. It&#8217;s not an ideal setup. As we go ahead, we would also love to divide the marketing team and merge the different marketing teams with the corresponding product teams, because this is actually the best way to do this. When every person focuses on one role, on one product, then you get the best results.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But this is a luxury you only get with scaling. Yeah, so this is probably the principle we are following now. One manager for five to seven people max. More independence within teams. See what&#8217;s the level of decision making independence we can give them. And then some managers that would be responsible for syncing different teams, because customer support, customer happiness has the inputs that the product development needs.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Also, the product development needs to sync with the marketing to market the features, and to the support, so that support would know what are all the new features that we are releasing in the new versions. Yes, and we are sharing naturally the admin part of things like office management, HR, those things. But this is, I think, natural for any company.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:34:47] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So if I&#8217;ve understood it correctly, you&#8217;ve got teams of five to seven developers. That then has a manager.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:34:53] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Five to seven people. This would also include designers, developers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:34:57] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Right, so each of those has a manager, so you&#8217;ve got a bunch of those teams, and then those managers then report to, what, another manager, slightly higher up. And then, do those managers then report to you? And then separately you&#8217;ve got the marketing and the support teams, who have to communicate with all of those teams, so that they&#8217;re aware of what the product actually is on a day-to-day basis, okay. For 43 people, you&#8217;re happy with the way that&#8217;s going.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Let&#8217;s just, very quickly, before we run out of time, because we&#8217;re probably approaching the time that we&#8217;ve got available. You&#8217;ve written down a section of tools that you like, which I think is quite interesting. We don&#8217;t really get into this conversation. So, what are some of the things that you are using in the year 2024? Obviously it&#8217;ll evolve over time. I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re happy to jettison some tools, and adopt new ones as they come out. But where are you at right now? What are the mainstays of your tooling?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:35:44] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Yeah, one note I would probably, one comment I would mention before going into the tools is that, it&#8217;s not really about the tools. It&#8217;s a mistake many managers and many beginners do, that they think that tool will solve a problem for them. But no, tool can only help you to solve a problem.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:36:01] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I will never, ever get over thinking that the tool will solve the problem. I make this mistake multiple times a year. Just get a new tool, and imagine it will fix all the things, and it never does. Anyway, sorry, an aside. You carry on.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:36:13] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> We all do this mistake. It&#8217;s a nice idea that you install the software, and you don&#8217;t have to worry about organising tasks anymore, something like that. So when I just became a manager, I was actually just doing some to-do lists, checklists, and it was sufficient. And I had a higher level checklists, and then drilled down into every point. Every point would have checklists under it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>As of today, 2024, I believe the tools stack is more or less standardised in the industry. We use the Google Suite for docs, for sheets, for emails. We use Slack for real time communication. And sometimes I think if we should maybe reduce using Slack, because it creates sometimes too much of context switching, too many distractions throughout the day, especially for managers. That&#8217;s a pain point for managers, that they have so many messages, and people expect them to answer like within 10 minutes. Where is this doc you shared with us on Friday?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We use Jira for tracking the projects. And we use different kind of boards for different projects, because I think every team needs to decide on the process that works for them. We use agile for all projects, but somewhere we use more kanban kind of approach. We have no strict deadlines in terms of two week sprints, and for most projects we use two week sprints. And then we have sprint planning, sprint review, and all that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tasks are estimated in story points. Probably you&#8217;re familiar with agile scrum and with all this methodology. And it then also helps with the estimating, with reporting, with looking back at how many story points every release had.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We are using some of the Confluence, but actually for longer term, structured kind of project, and team documentation, we use Notion. It&#8217;s a very nice, very handy tool for that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And we have different layers like company policies, team structure, product related assets, product related standards, coding standards, marketing standards. Whenever we figure out an SOP, we put it there, we all know this is the app we use, and everything is in there. And it&#8217;s very helpful for onboarding new guys, because before that we had all those chaotic Google Docs folders, and every time we had to remember where to look for those, and now everything is in one place.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>What else do we use? There are tools we use here and there, like Discord for communities. Those are more task relevant tools, like for Google ads, Facebook ads, we use some of downloadable software to monitor and track, but this is less relevant for project management.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But for project management, I think Jira is the most important part. And we use GitLab for developers. It&#8217;s connected to all the servers, to the continuous integration, continuous deployment process, and to Jira. Whenever something is pushed for a certain task, Jira has a reference to it. Yeah, I think from the major software all of us use, that would be it. But as I said, it&#8217;s really about, really not about the tools.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:39:09] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Exactly right. It really isn&#8217;t about the tools. Also curious that you have selected what many other teams have selected. There are definitely some sort of star players out there, in those project management software, and things like that. They&#8217;re popular for a reason. But I think trying to wrangle the communication between a growing team, especially when you&#8217;re trying to onboard people, really a difficult thing to do. It&#8217;s almost impossible to keep everybody on the page.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I share your frustration with Slack. One of the things that I find difficult about Slack is just being able to keep up with something if you&#8217;ve had a day off or something. You know, you&#8217;ve suddenly got this linear feed of information, you&#8217;ve got to scroll right up there, and the expectation is the link that was buried in some threaded comment you should have seen and, well, I didn&#8217;t see it, I&#8217;m really sorry about that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think probably we&#8217;ve gone through all of the different bits and the pieces that I wanted to go through. I am so appreciative of the amount of time that you&#8217;ve given to me. Enormous thanks.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The other thing that I would like to say is, what&#8217;s coming out of the conversation that we&#8217;ve had, I think is that, you view this as a journey. There&#8217;s no actual destination here, well, maybe there is. When you are 65 years old or something, and you are finally wishing to retire. But this whole process is just a constant process of tweaking, changing, modifying, taking people on for different roles, trying things out, forgiving yourself when they go wrong. And I&#8217;ve learned a lot from all of the different things that you&#8217;ve said to me over the last couple of hours.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>As I said, the show notes will be able to, well, you&#8217;ll be able to use the show notes to track down any of the links for anything that Alexander has mentioned.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Just before we go, Alexander, do you want to drop once more where people can find you? I know we did this in the last episode, but we might as well do it again before we round off.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:40:47] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Yeah, I&#8217;m most active in LinkedIn, so you can always find me there. And I&#8217;m happy to connect if you have a question, concern, comment, please contact me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:40:55] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, I will put that in the show notes. Thank you so much for chatting to me. I really have enjoyed this conversation, and I appreciate your time. Thank you very much.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:41:03] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Thank you. And it&#8217;s actually very interesting to share my thoughts, and to structure my thoughts. It helps me also to iterate and reflect on all those things. Thank you very much.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<p>On the podcast today we have <a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexander-gilmanov-tms/\">Alexander Gilmanov</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Alex comes to us today from Belgrade, Serbia. He’s a full-stack developer with a rich heritage of freelance and agency work. His company officially launched in 2014, and they’ve continued work with clients, as well as creating a range of WordPress plugins, and their own SaaS apps, mainly in the online booking space.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Slightly unusually for this podcast I decided to break the content up into two parts. You can hear the first episode from last week by going to the WP Tavern website and searching for <a href=\"https://wptavern.com/podcast/120-alexander-gilmanov-on-transitioning-from-developer-to-entrepreneur\">episode 120</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Alexander brings a wealth of experience from his journey within the WordPress ecosystem, and this podcast is all about his transitioning from being a freelancer towards a more managerial role, now overseeing a team of 43 employees.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Alexander gets into the intricacies of team management, emphasising the effective use of tools like Google Suite, Slack, Jira, Notion, Confluence, and GitLab.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We begin with Alexander reflecting upon his evolving role from an individual contributor to a leader, responsible for a mid-sized team. He talks about the lessons learned along the way, particularly trying to steer clear of negative motivation tactics. He now advocates for positive reinforcement and fostering a culture of trust and calm, where mistakes are viewed as opportunities for growth.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We then chat about the complexities of balancing automated and human support, and Alexander offers his perspective on managing support requests effectively while maintaining high customer satisfaction.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>He also explains the structure of his team, telling us about the benefits of smaller, independent teams and the need for coordination across departments such as product development, marketing, and support.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Towards the end we talk about the WordPress community, and Alexander contrasts this with other industries, sharing insights from events and conferences that have shaped his approach to team management. He mentions learning from established companies like Visual Composer or WP Bakery, noting the openness and knowledge-sharing that define the WordPress ecosystem.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Finally, Alexander underscores the importance of building the right team. He discusses the need to recognise when team members are not a good fit, and how it’s not always realistic to expect every employee to be a perfect fit for his way of doing things. Seeking the right people and learning continuously forms a key part of his managerial philosophy.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you’re interested in team management and the dynamics of the WordPress community, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Useful links</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://visualcomposer.com/\">Visual Composer</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wpbakery.com/\">WPBakery</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://brainstormforce.com/\">Brainstorm Force</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wpastra.com/\">Astra</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://workspace.google.com/\">Google Workspace</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wpdatatables.com/\">wpDataTables</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wpamelia.com/\">Amelia booking plugin</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://trafft.com/\">Trafft</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://slack.com/\">Slack</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira\">Jira</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence\">Confluence</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.notion.so/\">Notion</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://about.gitlab.com/\">GitLab</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexander-gilmanov-tms/\">Alexander on LinkedIn</a></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 22 May 2024 14:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Nathan Wrigley\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:11;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:45:\"Do The Woo Community: Episode 500, Thank You!\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=83696\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:42:\"https://dothewoo.io/episode-500-thank-you/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:27:\"Short and sweet, thank you!\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 22 May 2024 13:16:26 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:12;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:97:\"Do The Woo Community: Groundbreaker Talents, Opening Tech Opportunities for Young Women in Uganda\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=83671\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:95:\"https://dothewoo.io/groundbreaker-talents-opening-tech-opportunities-for-young-women-in-uganda/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:186:\"Learn about mentorship, sponsorship, and the impactful work of Groundbreaker, a program drives powerful experiences for mentors, talents, and the tech industry for young women in Uganda.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 21 May 2024 14:14:34 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:13;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:58:\"Akismet: Elementor Adds Akismet to Stop the Spread of Spam\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"http://akismet.com/?p=283943\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:64:\"https://akismet.com/blog/akismet-elementor-form-spam-protection/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:3145:\"<p>Elementor users have a new reason to rejoice: Form spam is a thing of the past! The Elementor Form widget is a great tool to build powerful forms with minimal effort. And when combined with the power of Akismet, you’ll have peace of mind that you’re receiving only legitimate responses, and not wasting time on&nbsp;spam.</p>\n\n<p>That’s why Elementor users will be pleased to hear about the new Akismet integration in <a href=\"https://elementor.com/blog/elementor-319-display-conditions-akismet-integration/\">Elementor&nbsp;3.19</a>.</p>\n\n\n<span id=\"more-283943\"></span>\n\n\n<h2 id=\"what-is akismet\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">What is&nbsp;Akismet?</h2>\n\n<p>Akismet is an AI&#8209;powered anti&#8209;spam technology that blocks spam with 99.99% accuracy. It works in the background, so it doesn’t force site visitors to complete an annoying CAPTCHA. Moreover, Akismet’s cloud technology means that it won’t slow down your site. To date, Akismet is used on more than 100 million websites built on WordPress and&nbsp;beyond.</p>\n\n<h2 id=\"what-is-elementor forms\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">What is Elementor&nbsp;Forms?</h2>\n\n<p><a href=\"https://elementor.com/\">Elementor</a> is a feature&#8209;rich website builder for WordPress. Alongside the flagship drag&#8209;and&#8209;drop editor, Elementor also offers 100+ widgets for extra functionality.<br />Among these is <a href=\"https://elementor.com/features/form-builder/\">Elementor Forms</a>, one of many widgets included in the premium version of the plugin. Elementor’s form builder is easy to learn and customizable. But, more than that, it’s convenient — you don’t need to download a different form&nbsp;plugin.</p>\n\n<h2 id=\"elementor-and-akismet-working together\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Elementor and Akismet working&nbsp;together</h2>\n\n<p>Seeing the potential for a useful collaboration, Elementor began work on integrating Akismet into their tools. While this feature ran in beta back in January, now all Elementor users on version 3.19 and above can enjoy Akismet protection within Elementor&nbsp;Forms.</p>\n\n<p><a href=\"https://elementor.com/help/block-spam-messages-from-forms/\">Enabling Akismet in Elementor Forms</a> just takes a few clicks. Akismet protects forms without the need for inconvenient CAPTCHA elements that slow down your site and drive away&nbsp;visitors.</p>\n\n<p>Note that you can only add spam protection to the Name, URL, Email, and Message fields. This should cover most use cases. Other fields, like the Password or Date selector, don’t require spam&nbsp;protection.</p>\n\n<h2 id=\"welcome-more-akismet integrations\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Welcome more Akismet&nbsp;integrations</h2>\n\n<p>The goal at Akismet is to <a href=\"https://akismet.com/features/\">rid the web of spam</a> for good, so more integrations are always something to celebrate. Elementor Forms has now been added to the list of <a href=\"https://akismet.com/support/getting-started/using-akismet-with-your-contact-forms/\">supported contact form&nbsp;plugins</a>.</p>\n\n\n<p>Akismet will continue doing what it does best: cleaning up spam across WordPress and beyond.&nbsp;</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Mon, 20 May 2024 14:37:24 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:11:\"Ali Uğurlu\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:14;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:78:\"Do The Woo Community: Building a Multichannel WooCommerce with Nitish Upadhyay\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=83617\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:77:\"https://dothewoo.io/building-a-multichannel-woocommerce-with-nitish-upadhyay/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:115:\"In this episode of Woo AgencyChat learn more about turning your clients WooCommerce shop into a multichannel store.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Mon, 20 May 2024 09:23:18 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:15;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:111:\"Gutenberg Times: Gutenberg Changelog #100 – NASA’s New Website – the Switch to WordPress and Block Editor\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:53:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?post_type=podcast&p=28669\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:35:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?p=28669\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:58205:\"<p>In this episode, Stacy Holtz, Gary Kovar and Birgit Pauli-Haack discuss NASA’s new website &#8211; the switch to WordPress and Block Editor, the scale of the project, the block and theme development, design and migration.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-100-nasa-wordpress-block-editor/#shownotes\">Show Notes</a> / <a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-100-nasa-wordpress-block-editor/#transcript\">Transcript</a></p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Music:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://soundcloud.com/xirclebox\">Homer Gaines</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Editor:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandy-reed/\">Sandy Reed</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Logo:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://markuraine.com/\">Mark Uraine</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Production:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://icodeforapurpose.com\">Birgit Pauli-Haack</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-larger-font-size\" id=\"shownotes\"><strong>Show Notes</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://lonerockpoint.com/2024/04/nasas-digital-universe-shines-with-webby-awards-nominations/\">NASA’s Digital Universe Shines with Webby Awards Nominations</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://x.com/photomatt/status/1777807195700125744\">Matt Mullenweg&#8217;s tweet</a> about the traffic of the Solar Eclipse Live stream. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://lonerockpoint.com/2023/10/nasa-flagship-wordpress-site-launch/\">NASA’s Flagship Website Launches on WordPress</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://lonerockpoint.com/2023/11/content-migration-for-nasa/\">Behind-the-Scenes Look at Content Migration for NASA</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://wordpress.tv/2023/10/13/for-all-userkind-nasa-web-modernization-and-wordpress/\">For all userkind: NASA web modernization and WordPress</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://wordpress.tv/2023/10/23/hands-on-with-nasas-new-digital-platform/\">Hands on with NASA’s new digital&nbsp;platform</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-large-font-size\">Stay in Touch</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group\"><div class=\"wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-flow wp-block-group-is-layout-flow\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Did you like this episode? <a href=\"https://lovethepodcast.com/gutenbergchangelog\"><strong>Please write us a review </strong></a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Ping us on Twitter or send DMs with questions. <a href=\"https://twitter.com/gutenbergtimes\">@gutenbergtimes </a>and <a href=\"https://twitter.com/bph\">@bph</a>.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>If you have questions or suggestions, or news you want us to include, send them to <a href=\"mailto:changelog@gutenbergtimes.com\">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a>. </em></li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>Please write us a review on iTunes! <a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/itunes/\">(Click here to learn how)</a></em></li>\n</ul>\n</div></div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-large-font-size\" id=\"transcript\"><strong>Transcript</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Hello, and welcome to our hundredth episode of the Gutenberg Changelog podcast. Now, let that sink in a little bit. A hundred episodes. That&#8217;s about at least 80 hours together, dear listeners. And today, the hundredth show. I&#8217;m thrilled to have a special show for you, for me, and hopefully also for our guests here.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I have with me Stacy Holtz and Gary Kovar from the Lone Rock Point agency. But how would you know them? Yes, they worked with others on the NASA&#8217;s new website. Switch to WordPress and the block editor, and we will have a great chat about the scope of the project, how WordPress really scales and how they did it in development, as well as in user training, content creators, blocking stuff, working with blocks.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;m your host, Birgit Pauli-Haack, curator at the Gutenberg Times and a full-time core contributor to the WordPress open source projects, sponsored by Automattic for the Future Program. So let me introduce my guest today. Stacy Holtz has been with Lone Rock Point for three years, focusing on project and team management as group account director. Her significant contributions to the NASA project have been highlighted through her leadership in user support training efforts, especially in guiding users on the effective use of custom-built blocks. Welcome, Stacy. So happy you are on the show also with us.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> Thank you. I&#8217;m so excited to be here.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> It&#8217;s cool. It&#8217;s cool. So also with us is Gary Kovar. Gary Kovar, principal software engineer at Lone Rock Point. And his role during the NASA project was, he was instrumental in steering the team towards the beta phase, was key in the integration of Search.gov, and oversaw the management of more than 200,000 redirects. He&#8217;s notably skilled in bringing together historic materials and managing the space station research explorer, as well as various other non-WordPress static content. Now there were a few words in there that I need to clarify later. Welcome to the show, Gary.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Thanks. Excited to be here.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, it&#8217;s wonderful. I also want to point out to our listeners, what&#8217;s the connection with NASA? Apart from that you&#8217;re awesome and that you built a phenomenal block- based website. I have a high affinity for NASA. Fifteen years ago in 2009, I was part of the first tweet up for the shuttle launch 129 on Cape Canaveral. And we were two days where 150 people from Twitter that had been following NASA for the last two years or so on the platform. And they were invited to come to Cape Canaveral, spend a whole day in talks and meet some of the engineers, and meet astronauts, and I met Mike Macedonia, and Miles O&#8217;Brien was there, and quite a few engineers were there to tell us what this all entails. And we of course didn&#8217;t completely get it, but we had a very new take on it because, and that was the idea from the social media team, that the news take this in 129 shuttle starts. You can&#8217;t always, there&#8217;s no news in there unless something happens.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So there&#8217;s no excitement. There is no excitement about the payload, about what&#8217;s going on with the astronauts. Yeah, we raised with the astronauts from the airplane and that was really something. So we, 150 people, brought a new take on it, because it was all new to us and we wanted to share video and interviews and all that with our audience, and the story for the news, the main news outlets were the tweet up, we were the news on NASA, etc. So it was really interesting to talk to Miles O&#8217;Brien and all the others, and get the world treatment on the press mound. And of course the excitement of the shuttle start, it was really changing for me, and the Explorer part of it was really interesting. So I can&#8217;t really put it into words still. Yeah, after 15 years I am back there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I thought, oh yes, this comes good together and let&#8217;s do a show on the Gutenberg Changelog about the NASA website and bring this all together. So what will we talk about today? I think we have three main topics. One is briefly talk about the scale of the project, because it&#8217;s enormous. We talk about the sites, the people, the blocks, the processing, the time that it takes to bring something together. And then, we talk about the actual block and theme development about design systems migration. And then, the last part was, it&#8217;s the most important part actually, one of the paths was clear for the development, how did the content creators then needed to be trained, the publishing flow revamped, what new sites were built, new pages built and all that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And there is another news part of it, April 8th, talking about scale, right? April 8th, what happened there was NASA live-streamed the solar eclipse, the one in 35 years, and there&#8217;s only one traffic number that I know about, and that is between four and a half hour span, one billion requests made to the NASA.gov website, with a large majority served under 400 milliseconds. So this is a real scaled operation. I don&#8217;t think that many other websites get, in that amount of time, so much traffic. How did that feel, Gary and Stacy? You probably were watching as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Oh yes. I traveled to view the Eclipse in person and I took my laptop with me. So as I was sitting there waiting, I was tethered and kind of watching traffic increase and yeah, stunning. Certainly the busiest site I&#8217;ve worked on.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> How did you see the solar eclipse, Stacy?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> Yeah, same. I was not traveling, but I was running back and forth between my kitchen and the back deck to put my glasses on and view it, and then come back and check on everything, and make sure our user community didn&#8217;t need any support of any kind. So definitely it was a fun day.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> And I will say, some of the reason that we were able to handle that kind of traffic is there was plenty of prep. Obviously eclipses don&#8217;t sneak up on us, so we knew it was coming, and both on the content creator side and the technical side, we were able to posture ourselves for this expected increase in traffic and extremely thrilled with how it all went.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, that&#8217;s awesome. And the latest web news about NASA, of course there are others, plenty of news and you can all check it out on NASA.gov, but the latest news is that NASA got the Webby Awards for the new live stream site. Congratulations to you all and the team. That&#8217;s wonderful. So what is that live site about? What was that? How did that come to pass?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar: </em>Yeah, so NASA Plus is pretty cool. NASA, of course, everybody has a streaming service, so why shouldn&#8217;t NASA, right? So plus.nasa.gov is NASA&#8217;s streaming service. The neat part is it&#8217;s a WordPress site, and so WordPress functions is the control room for content creators to put together playlists and spotlight content. Any live event that takes place is run through and both live on plus.nasa.gov. And higher traffic stuff is co-streamed on www.nasa.gov. But you can install the plus, well you can sell the NASA app on any device and have live-streaming. It&#8217;s cool. Very cool. And the part that blows my mind every time I fired up on my Apple TV is that it&#8217;s just hitting the WordPress rest API. That&#8217;s pretty wild to me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, yeah, no, I can see that. Yeah, it&#8217;s really pushing the envelope on that, on the rest API, definitely. Yeah. So take us back to now, not how did this come to pass? Well, NASA 20-year-old content, I think they started way in 2000, well maybe even earlier, with putting stuff on the web, but so what was the project like? What was the scale of the project? When you went in there, how did you it to even scope it?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> I was fortunate to join the project after some decisions had been made, CMS had already been chosen. There was a long conversation around that before deciding on WordPress. And so, I joined when development was very much in process. But I think even before that, it&#8217;s worth pointing out that the first domino that caused all this was the 21st Century Idea Act that talked about modernizing websites. And so, NASA certainly, a technical organization, every group center, club, cafeteria, all had a website, because it was important to have this information available. And they get that part innately and ended up where many agencies, both federally and otherwise have ended up, in that they have a sprawling footprint across the internet. And the Idea Act, further pushed by a memo &#8217;23, &#8217;22, last year, basically said we got to make this better for users. And so, NASA really went after that and found partners that could help them get to this point.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So when I joined Lone Rock Point, development was already in process and there were lists of things that needed to happen before launch. Like there&#8217;s thousands of sites that needed to be consolidated and we have content across four different major versions of the WWW site, and a lot of minor things that we&#8217;re also resolving at WWW at different addresses, that all needed to come in to make this thing live. There were some sections that to the federal law, the URL had to change the same, so there were perma link structures that needed to be considered, and it was this just massive checklist of items to get through, page after page of how do you account for that, how do you account for that? And on top of it, a really specific goal of giving content creators the tooling they needed to really tell the story, and give a compelling introduction or compelling reason for people to read and see what they have to say. So a very tall task. An exciting task. Exciting task.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, definitely. So when did it start? It was a process that took I think months if not years to put together. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> I&#8217;m not sure of the official date. When I started the project, it was already in progress, and they were still making decisions around the CMS. So I joined it before Gary, but it was already in progress. So I honestly don&#8217;t know when the official timeline of that was.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> I&#8217;ll say the 21st Century Idea Act was written in 2018, so shortly after that, I mean we&#8217;re 2024 now. Shortly after that, the planning had to happen and NASA had to start getting it together, because an agency of that size, there&#8217;s a lot of momentum to account for.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: Yeah, there are also budget questions there. You need to kind of wait until the next budget round comes, and so it&#8217;s a year past before you get anything on the books. Yeah, definitely get that. Yeah. So you mentioned there were in your introduction, I read something like, what&#8217;s the Space Station Research Explorer?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Oh yeah. So Space Station Research Explorer is awesome and was a fun, I&#8217;ll say problem to solve. As I mentioned, there&#8217;s some federally required things by laws, PDFs here and there, and some digital cost analysis here. One of those, Space Station Research Explorer, is literally taking from the ISS data from research projects, and consolidating and writing reports. And that lived on a URL that conflicted with other permalinks, and also had some really strict requirements around where images existed and specific cell files, because they&#8217;re packaged up and used in other systems internally at NASA. So in many cases you&#8217;d say, &#8220;Well great, we can just redirect,&#8221; but not really an option in this case. So there&#8217;s a whole routing and URL management system within WordPress, separate from WordPress, to deal with the logic of the Space Station Research Explorer. That was sort of my toe in the water on the project was, this thing has to work, and get that working so we can get to launch. The first of many of those in the checklist.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Also, there are other things on the website that are really astonishing, and have a huge amount of data we handed that&#8217;s for instance also the mission, I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s called Explorer as well, but the mission database where anybody can look up a prior NASA mission, and see who were the astronauts, what was the purpose of the mission and all that, that also needed to totally, it&#8217;s in a database, but it need also revamped for that. So I&#8217;m assuming that&#8217;s also part of the project?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> And I&#8217;ll share that some of this stuff is not, it&#8217;s old content, but it&#8217;s continually updated. There&#8217;s a piece of content from the history office called the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal, and to this day it&#8217;s still updated as different artifacts are discovered that people who worked in the project took home, and are sharing and finding. We have better technology now to try and understand some of these garbled transmissions.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Oh, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yeah, so there continue to be updates there, and it&#8217;s a highly trafficked area of the site that had to be migrated in as well, and recognize the effort that volunteers across the globe are making on that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, you mentioned thousands of public sites. How can you even have thousands of public sites? That&#8217;s really interesting. But when you say the cafeterias and all the offices, they all had public sites, so it kind of gets together. Then 456 users that log into some part of the website, and they&#8217;re mostly content creators, I would assume. And then, I read in one of the blog posts that you built 55 custom blocks. Yeah. So how did you approach the development that went from, so you had a design company I would assume, or was it also done in your agency that design steps to come to that?</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Block and Theme Development</h3>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yeah, great question. So design actually happened in parallel while CMS was being chosen. So the design system we use is called Horizon Design System, and a design agency put this together, very ambitious design system. They tried to account for every use case they could think of within NASA, without being informed by what can the tool we&#8217;re using actually do. And so, Design System was, I&#8217;ll air quote finalized, like design systems never finalized, but finalized around the same time the CMS was chosen, give or take a little bit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>During the implementation, actually developing this, there was a lot of discovery of, oh gee, this wasn&#8217;t considered or accounted for, because there was no way the design company could have discovered or accounted for it. How do we deal with that? And so ultimately, if we had completed the entire design system as specked out, I wonder how many blocks there would be? Probably hundreds. So many compelling ways to tell the story. We ended it at 55 by virtue of, I mean at some point the things got to launch, we can&#8217;t build forever, but also these are the pieces that are necessary broadly to accomplish what needs to be accomplished. Since launch, a couple more blocks have been added specific to streaming.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. Oh yeah, totally get that. So there&#8217;s this underlying question that probably any agency has that needs to talk with clients about it. So what&#8217;s the decision between, okay, using core blocks versus creating custom blocks. I can see that there are not a whole lot of blocks like tabs, or accordions in core, so I get that those definitely needed to be created, but what are other blocks that you built?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yeah, I would say that there&#8217;s a lot of blocks that allow relating content to other content. So selecting related content either automatically or dynamically, identifying you might want to continue reading on. In some cases that&#8217;s accomplished with custom blocks by virtue of the design system needs. So the design system sort of dictates that to accomplish this, we need to give content creators X amount of control that aren&#8217;t available in core blocks. Even things like imagery, so we&#8217;ve extended the core image block quite a bit to account for not just captioning, but credits, descriptions. There were some needs to link to, in some cases an image article, in other cases to link to the raw image that&#8217;s dynamically chosen when the block&#8217;s in use. So there&#8217;s a lot of, one of the major goals was provide compelling content and continue providing compelling content. And so, to that end, the blocks serve that purpose and go beyond what core would need specific to NASA&#8217;s needs.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. Speaking of imagery, there is this image, the hundreds and thousands of media assets, mostly probably images and videos, and know that the Hubble Telescope and now James Webb Telescope, they produce tons of images. I don&#8217;t think that goes through the WordPress media library, or am I&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Correct. Yeah, so NASA has an internal CDN that&#8217;s used. Some of that stuff, it makes sense to bring into the media library and scale for use.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. What&#8217;s the CDN?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Content distribution network, so like an S3 bucket, or some other place to store it that-</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Just for the purpose of our listeners, we all have sometimes a bit of a jargony. Just wanted to make sure. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Sorry, I&#8217;m still living in my own head in my own life.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> I know how to stop you. Yeah, CDN. Yeah. All right. Yeah, so it has its own CDN and then, but there&#8217;s still a link to the article, so that is probably custom development as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Correct. And that CDN is embedded, so if you&#8217;re in the media library, external or internal, of course you can still upload and use as appropriate. And even looking specifically at the media library, there were needs, there&#8217;s a lot of PDFs, contracts, and other information that gets updated, and one of the needs our content creators have is they need to be able to replace this thing. I&#8217;m not even sure where all it&#8217;s being linked from, so it&#8217;s not as simple as saying, &#8220;Upload a new thing to the media library, redirect.&#8221; Yeah, it&#8217;s complex. It&#8217;s complex. A lot of business logic behind it. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, I can imagine.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> It&#8217;s not like you upload your own, you think in your own WordPress website or wherever, you upload your image and maybe one or two other people use your image. You think about, you have hundreds of content creators and they&#8217;re looking for a specific image that was uploaded, and it&#8217;s used in multiple places, or the PDF is used in multiple places. You as the original person who uploaded it, have no way of knowing where it was uploaded. So you have to be able to account for that, right? If they need to update something on the PDF, make changes to that, that it gets changed everywhere.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, I can see that. And that definitely needs to scale quite a bit there, because it&#8217;s also geared towards NASA and the use case there. Were there any blocks where you considered maybe later on we could kind of public source them, or open source them and make them available for the wider WordPress community?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yeah, there&#8217;s definitely an ongoing conversation that I think it&#8217;s in the public web experience office. I think it&#8217;s intent to get to the point that we can open source, and I will say, not that there&#8217;s probably anything compelling or earth-shattering there that will change the world for developers, more so that this is a way we solve the problem. And I don&#8217;t know, I like spinning up projects like that. I think it&#8217;d be fun. If I wasn&#8217;t working on it, I&#8217;d probably be cloning it. So I don&#8217;t know when it&#8217;s available, hopefully soon. Obviously many hoops to jump through, but something on the horizon.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. Wonderful. Wonderful. No, I can see in one of the posts and we link all the posts that I&#8217;ve mentioned here to the show notes for later, for your own perusal, dear listeners, but I read in one of the posts that you had a tabbed block where you can have the tabs on top, and then four page, and then have different content in the tabs, but then you also could move the tabs around, so you create your own tabs and all that. So that was a pretty neat block to see and how it works, and it would be really cool to have that, at least for those who also have these huge publishing needs, or have a need for not only have a linear content creation or launch page, but wanted to have some additional ways to highlight things. Yeah. So you mentioned it multiple times. The CMS was chosen. What was the leaving CMS?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Drupal.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Drupal?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yep.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Drupal 7?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> There were some migration issues there, I would think.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> To say the least, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> Well, and Drupal it somewhat of a different data model, and that site was headless.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Which of course is a continuing conversation for us in WordPress land, and I think there were some interesting things to learn from that in the sense that publishing there was effectively creating JSON files that were being consumed, and so you weren&#8217;t necessarily hitting a rest API, you were hitting a static file. So from a speed perspective, it was very fast.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> So the data came out of the database into a JSON file, and then that was consumed by the CMS, is that what I&#8217;m understanding?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> By the front end, yeah. So you would publish it on the front end. Yeah, the front end would consume it, correct, yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: Okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yeah, and that content was of course the most current content, but that site also had to accommodate the previous designs as well, that were not migrated to the new design system at that last move. And part of that were all these micro sites that, maybe 10 or 15 pages that have a specific use case, but didn&#8217;t really fit any of the existing design patterns, but also told a pretty interesting story, useful information for the public and whatnot, all fell under that roof. From a migration perspective, I&#8217;ll give you a huge shout-out to Andrew Norcross, who was my colleague at Lone Rock Point, spearheading migration. The migration system is, it&#8217;d be really cool if we could just bring this stuff in and stick it right into blocks, and say, &#8220;Hey, content creator, make sure this matches what you think it is, and let&#8217;s go.&#8221; In addition to bringing content in, there was sort of a re-strategizing about navigation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So the information architecture itself changed entirely, so it wasn&#8217;t even necessarily a one-to-one, because many different people had many different responsibilities across the system. We had content that was duplicative, or incomplete, or disagreed with each other just by virtue of age, and the information hadn&#8217;t been updated to the other person was updating, what have you. So the migration worked in two phases. First content came into the staging area, and the staging area was a safe place, custom post type, where content editors could come in and it would make the first pass at trying to convert to blocks, core blocks, basically, none of our custom blocks.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And from there, content creators could apply the custom blocks and really figure out how to retell the story in the current system, and it gave them an opportunity to say, &#8220;Where does this actually fall in the new system?&#8221; And eventually get it to the appropriate post type, in the appropriate category, owned by the right people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, if you think about that, you go, &#8220;Well, that&#8217;s cool, except it&#8217;s possible that something had come in and it previously had three or four URLs as consolidating down to one.&#8221; So every piece of content that came in, we have an old URL for, in some cases that remain the same. By and large, they change, but then there&#8217;s also these pages that no longer exist that need to be accommodated for. The URLs still exist in search results and old links, and what have you, and that all has to kind of burn down to a logical system where we handle redirects.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. So the content creators must have come in pretty early in the project, because when they converted to blocks, they needed to already know how to do that. So training or the outline and the processes, they needed to work in parallel, I would think. Did that work, Stacy?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz: </em>Yeah, so early on, we had a sandbox available for the content creators, so as blocks were released and information was coming out, you have to keep in mind too, we were learning this alongside the content creators. It&#8217;s not like we could go out and Google these new custom blocks, have them built, and how does this work? We had to work closely with the development team to learn all these little great settings and fun things that had been provided for us, and so we started small, and that we would bring in smaller groups of content creators, and work with those groups. And then they could help then train their teams, and so we didn&#8217;t have to necessarily bring in hundreds of people at a time. We tried to start small and work our way out to have a bigger outreach, to help everyone get comfortable learning how everything worked.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> I think the metaphor we&#8217;re all familiar with is building the plane walls in flight, but we were building the rocket after it left the launch pad.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> That&#8217;s how Gutenberg is built, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Well, to that end, the best way to understand what users want, is to get something in their hands and get feedback. So it&#8217;s a very real feedback cycle and helps refine the product for what&#8217;s actually necessary, for sure.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> And also, it really helps to know what the people actually will do the work two years from now kind of start out and need to learn how to do it, and how that works for them in their publishing floor, and content creation is really the meat of the matter, yeah. So 70,000 pages before I divide that by 465 users, is that each user would roughly deal with 150 pages, which probably isn&#8217;t the case. Some have more and some have less of course, but that is a big amount of time to spend with a new system when you have to get some pressure on it, and sooner or later it needs to get live, and then that&#8217;s not all of it. Then you have other, as you mentioned, the image resources and the PDFs. And then there were also, did I read this right? 845 podcasts or episodes?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> I&#8217;m pretty certain that&#8217;s episodes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Episodes, okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar: </em>Yeah. Yeah. There&#8217;s only a few that are regular that continue to be published. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah. And you also needed integration with other systems. I&#8217;m thinking that NASA has huge technical systems that also need to integrate with the CMS or with the website. As you mentioned though, this, what was it? The Space Station Explorer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> The Space Station Research Explorer, yeah. And technically the back end of that is using MSSQL database. And so, there&#8217;s this wrapper in there in WordPress that&#8217;s making an external call to a Microsoft database, which is kind of cool. As part of that process, you can&#8217;t just log in to WP Admin. Within NASA, there&#8217;s a card-based system, so the SAML integration required the big one, SAML, I don&#8217;t know, don&#8217;t ask me what it stands for. I don&#8217;t know.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> It&#8217;s a single sign-on kind of security thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yeah, exactly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. Okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yeah, you have to put in your card and pin, and lick the screen, and count to 10 backwards, and all that. Yeah, yeah. All sorts of fun stuff. The really cool integration that I am excited about is, search.gov. So we&#8217;re familiar with WordPress internal search. One of the challenges here is that there&#8217;s multiple sites at play, there&#8217;s NASA Plus, there&#8217;s www.science.nasa.gov. It&#8217;s actually another installation, a WordPress. It&#8217;s not multi-site, but it&#8217;s using the same systems.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so, all this content needs to be searchable somewhere. GSA, General Services Agency, federal government provides a search index for federal agencies. And so, we worked really closely with search.gov to drop in a faceted search and replace WordPress for search. One of the benefits is that working with GSA, they&#8217;re doing what every search engine does, and they&#8217;re indexing content. So by virtue of working with them, there&#8217;s some pretty good SEO things that Bing and Google like, but also good practices to make it easy to identify content and understand, and that becomes more and more necessary the fringe content that&#8217;s not content creator direct type stuff.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> So it probably also didn&#8217;t help that Matt Cutts was part of the GSA for a long time, who was the spam fighter at Google, and he left Google to go to the General Service Agency, or to the universal data place. And I also know that Andrew Nason, one of the core lead developers, work there as well. So yeah, there are some great technical minds in there as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yeah, that&#8217;s an agency that can do mighty things for sure.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> You mentioned the mobile apps, the iOS app, as well as the Android app from NASA, in conjunction with the live stream, but you can also just see the website there, or navigate the website there, but that&#8217;s also headless then?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yeah, correct. That&#8217;s just using the rest API.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> And then, yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> No, so you build both mobiles up natively, and then just go out and pull the data from the rest API. That&#8217;s right.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Content Creators</h3>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> There&#8217;s another team that does the apps. There&#8217;s an apps team within, that we worked pretty closely with, and by and large, you&#8217;re hitting regular WordPress rest endpoints. There&#8217;s a couple of custom endpoints we rolled, but generally it&#8217;s built-in endpoints. One of the fun use of rest endpoints that I think is pertinent here, I talked a little about science and the WWW site being two different sites. As a content creator, sometimes you span, you&#8217;re working on content that spans both, and so you need to be able to link between the two, so the sites communicate with each other by the rest API. And so the blocks, when you&#8217;re linking to content, when you&#8217;re searching for content, you&#8217;re searching both sides to link to the appropriate content within blocks. So as a content creator, there&#8217;s not an apparent difference between sites other than what do I have access to? What am I allowed to edit?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, interesting. Totally interesting. Yeah. So now the site is built or somewhat built.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> It&#8217;s like the internet. It&#8217;s mostly done. It&#8217;s like the internet.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Birgit Pauli-Haack: Oh, internet is a fad, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> It&#8217;s a great fad.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. I wonder when it&#8217;ll take off, right? Yeah. Websites are similar to these Japanese design models. It&#8217;s called wabi-sabi. It&#8217;s never finished, it never lasts, and it&#8217;s never perfect, but we really want to go get close to it, and now it comes the content creators in that the blocks are built, the migration comes in. It&#8217;s kind of, yeah, what&#8217;s next? Stacy, how did you approach the whole, okay, people need to unlearn things before they can learn new things. And even that, people at NASA are probably ahead of the technical curve, but they&#8217;re all humans. They hate change, so how did that go? So they want to get their work done, they want to get the work back to the same time or faster than before, and now they are all crashing to a halt, because they have to learn this new thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> So that&#8217;s a really interesting concept to think about. I think we all kind of came in thinking, &#8220;Oh, it&#8217;s WordPress, we&#8217;ve totally got this,&#8221; and go into these training sessions and office hours, and realizing that all of our content creators have mostly been using Drupal and are very familiar with that system. And so, we were missing a key part there, because some of us didn&#8217;t understand how they had been using it before, and so we had to take a step back and help bridge that gap between we understand this is how you&#8217;re doing it before, but now this is how we do it going forward, and things that maybe we might take for granted. I think one of the things I noticed was that all the different settings and options that they had in the block itself, and each block has its own set of very specific settings, and so it really was just sitting down and taking that time with the content creators, and creating learning resources.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We&#8217;re talking videos, handwritten ones, and making sure that they got into the hands of the content creators. And we learned early on too, that just creating them and throwing a link out there, and saying, &#8220;Here you all go. Here&#8217;s the newest learning resource,&#8221; really wasn&#8217;t working, because the content creators are so busy. For a while there, they were creating double content right before we got to where we were launching. They were having to maintain content in two different places. And so, we started hosting office hours, and one-on-one support, and just making ourselves available all the time to support them, and make sure that they got the information that they needed in a timely manner, to help ease that transition and ease that frustration. It is frustrating, right? I&#8217;ve been doing it this way, now I have to learn this whole new thing, and I&#8217;m excited about it, but I&#8217;m still frustrated, because it&#8217;s just one more thing that I have to do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. So there must have been, and each person probably had a different timescale on that, or timeline on that, but there is a point where you say, &#8220;Okay, this new thing isn&#8217;t so bad, let&#8217;s kind of dive in.&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the resistance is, because I have to get this thing done, but the new thing, it takes me so much longer because I don&#8217;t know yet well enough. When was that? What was that click that made people think, &#8220;Oh, this is better. This makes me more creative?&#8221; That&#8217;s an assumption of mine, but&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> I think it was different for everyone, because some people picked it up super-fast, because they had more time to devote to it, or maybe they had used WordPress before. They were super familiar with it, so the learning curve wasn&#8217;t quite as steep for them. Maybe it took longer for something else, because they were already buried in other things, and I&#8217;m the only person that manages this content, and I manage X, Y, and Z. So I&#8217;m the only one man show over here, and I have to do all these things. And so, I think it just really depended on the person in the group. Overall though, the majority were very excited about it and still are. And when we roll out, when the development team rolls out an enhancement, something that we&#8217;ve gotten feedback on, we make sure we share that widely with our user community. And they&#8217;re all very excited, because they&#8217;ve been working on it since it was, they started in the sandbox, and it was feedback that they gave, and yay, now we have this new piece of functionality and we&#8217;re very, very excited about it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> I&#8217;ll add onto that, one of the now of being live is that we have the space and expectation to build that way. As we were getting to launch, it was get everything in, every block we can, as polished as we can get it before we get live. Once we got to beta, we had to transition into this place where we take a more refined approach. When it&#8217;s not public facing, content creators will tolerate some disruption, some, but I mean that&#8217;s reasonable. They&#8217;re understanding that things are going to break. We&#8217;re still actively developing. Once we entered beta, that changed significantly. And now, as new features roll out, there&#8217;s space for feedback and exposure prior to it going live in the system, and I think that&#8217;s made a tremendous difference in users&#8217; competence in the system and sense of stability.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, I definitely can see that. Yes. Yeah. So you mentioned that you had a lot of tools at hand to communicate changes, but it wasn&#8217;t only&#8230; So office hours, was it a monthly or a daily thing, or where 450 people? Yeah, it&#8217;s definitely in a new system. They probably want you right by them. Each one of them wants, &#8220;Sit next to me and show me this thing.&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> Yeah, so we set it up as an open, it was an open invite, and everyone was included and we just held it once a week. Actually, we still have it, and us as the web support community, all of us who are supporting, we would just go and we would be there, whether someone showed up or whether someone didn&#8217;t show up. I think the first one that we held, we hit the panic button when the ticker was going up to, we had over 200 people in office hours, and we were sending out like, oh my gosh, we&#8217;re going to need a little bit more support in here, just to help manage. If someone had a really complex conversation that someone could then take them to a breakout room type of situation, and sit down with them, and help them work the problem, but we didn&#8217;t abandon the other 199 people that were in the room.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And we were finding the process. We got to the point where we were putting up agendas and things like that, and this week we&#8217;re going to be demoing this. This was just released and come with questions. And so, it was definitely, we&#8217;ve refined as we&#8217;ve gone through it and it&#8217;s gotten better, as far as keeping it streamlined and being there to support our users. And then, we also would set up one-on-one support. We made ourselves available. We still do that. Send us an email, send us a Teams chat. If you need something, we&#8217;re here to sit down with you and work on this.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Wonderful. Yeah. It mentions also, you also had a weekly blog newsletters that gone out? I think that-</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> Yeah, we do a weekly blog and a newsletter, and we have a subscriber list that the newsletter just goes out to. It is an email blast, and then we have an internal site that the weekly blog goes up on. And then, in all of these channels that we&#8217;re communicating with our users with, we post all of these links. We cross post them everywhere, so that way people have visibility, so that they had the information in hand, and so they didn&#8217;t feel like, &#8220;We have to ask, we weren&#8217;t given the information. We have to ask.&#8221; And then it&#8217;s given to us. As soon as we have it, we share it, and then it&#8217;s always living there, so they can go back and look, &#8220;Right, oh, you&#8217;re right, this was released or this was changed,&#8221; or something like that. So that has been a really valuable resource to support the users as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, and I can imagine that at the beginning you didn&#8217;t have any FAQs, but those definitely started coming in quite a bit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> Just on and on and on and on. It was crazy. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Do you also have a central point where you collect them, so people can look them up? I always have been a little bit worried about FAQs, that they don&#8217;t have, yeah, you can&#8217;t sort them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz: </em>Yeah, so we started off with that and admittedly, I think our FAQs are probably a little out of date, but we have a form that we use, that users can submit feedback requests, or a bug report, or anything like that. And then it gets categorized and we all get a chance to review it, and decide who should take point on this specific issue, so that way that we don&#8217;t ever want our users to feel like they asked for some help of some kind, and it just fell into a black hole, and no one ever got back to them. And that can happen when you have multiple communication channels. They posted it somewhere, nobody saw it. So having this, &#8220;Please put your request here in this form,&#8221; is really useful, because then it does get dropped into a spreadsheet and we can track it, and we can see what happened to it. We don&#8217;t want to lose track of that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, wonderful. So when you say that they&#8217;re still really excited about it, so what are the things that they are really excited about with the new block system, and how they built their sites, or how they built their articles and all that? What makes the life easier in terms of the new site versus the old site?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> I don&#8217;t know that I&#8217;m qualified to make that comparison, like new versus old. I think that we can see though, just looking at the new site and how the content creators are sharing content with the spectacular images, and all of the well-written articles and content that I think it kind of speaks for itself, right? It&#8217;s its own showcase and I love watching them. Everything that is created is so visually appealing and I really enjoy looking at it, and it&#8217;s a lot of fun for me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. Well, the website is really spectacular. With all the images and all the, it flows very nicely in finding your content there. So when other people would follow, maybe not that big of a project, because that&#8217;s pretty rare, but having similar publications that kind of need to migrate over. Were there any surprises that you, and that&#8217;s both of you, any surprises where you said, &#8220;Hm, that would have been nice. I didn&#8217;t think of that?&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yeah, because the main site is launched, but the consolidation efforts continue. And as much as each site is unique, we can identify some patterns and some concepts that each of these different sites have and group them conceptually, and say, &#8220;How do we deal with a site that&#8217;s like this?&#8221; And start assigning them that level, so that everything is not custom. We can build some broad tooling that deals with that. I say that realizing that in this sprint, that&#8217;s what I&#8217;m working on. We have some existing old set of content that no one&#8217;s going to continue old, but continue to own, but it&#8217;s important that it remains online. And how do we get it out of an S3 bucket somewhere and effectively into WordPress is a question.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> How about you, Stacy? Do you have any surprises that you kind of thought, &#8220;Oh yeah, that is really something?&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> I don&#8217;t know, I&#8217;m sure that I do, Birgit. I&#8217;m going to have to pass on that one though, because I&#8217;m sitting here thinking about it. But I&#8217;m sure that I do and I&#8217;ll think of it later, but at the moment, on the top of my head, I can&#8217;t.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Well, you can always ping me on the, just like, &#8220;I got my surprise.&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> Figured it out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> I do want to throw out a developer tip though. I had this revelation. Working on the site as a developer, you&#8217;re obviously working with local development content. It&#8217;s probably weird and an image of a cat or something, and it&#8217;s placeholder stuff. I feel like a lot of developers do that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz</em>: I know where this is going.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar: </em>And when we entered beta after all this mayhem, I sat down on the couch at the end of that day, and I pulled it up on my phone, and actually looked at some of the content that the content creators put in place. And I got to have the experience of a new site user of being inspired, and really in awe of what they put together. It was so cool. And I scrolled on my phone while Netflix was on in the background for hours that night. That was what I was doing on my phone, was looking at this beta site that ostensibly I&#8217;d been aware of, but I&#8217;d been so focused on my portion of it. So I&#8217;m really thrilled they have the opportunity to work with people that can put this compelling content out there, and assemble it in such beautiful and meaningful way. It&#8217;s very cool.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> Agreed.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> So now you say they are ongoing, you&#8217;re doing additional and ongoing migrations, but you also are working on new development, new blogs, or I know that the agency is also working on the block theme for government agencies. So what&#8217;s next for you and for the NASA site?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yeah, next is I think you asked if there were more blocks coming, and I think the answer is it depends. There&#8217;s still…</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> That&#8217;s a normal developer answer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yeah. Well, some of it depends on where some of the current blocks evolve to. So the bug fixes and enhancements that we continue to work through in our sprints are in some ways fundamentally changing how some of these blocks work. And we may solve other issues without needing to create new blocks, because there is a fire hose problem. If you have so many custom and you can&#8217;t find that one, you sort of have to limit a little bit. Like you said earlier, sites are never done. And so, that&#8217;s definitely part of it. There&#8217;s ongoing work. A lot of the ongoing work is around content at this point. And so, that inherently is getting some of this content that&#8217;s not so easy to find, or is external, or couldn&#8217;t be handled at the initial pass, getting that into the system appropriately, so that it&#8217;s in search results, it&#8217;s available in all blocks to be used and embedded. Those are really the areas of focus and growing, the footprint of the WWW site.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Are you also trying to figure out how to use the new APIs that come in with the Gutenberg or WordPress, like the block bindings with the custom fields, the block hooks, and then the interactivity API? Is this also something that you&#8217;re working on, or is there something that you say, &#8220;Okay, well let&#8217;s wait for a year to settle everything, and then kind of see how that comes in?&#8221; Because Gutenberg changes every two weeks, but you&#8217;re not using the plugin in production, I would think.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Correct. We&#8217;re using Block Editor to merge to Core, yeah. Yeah. The answer is it&#8217;s a little complex. So if there&#8217;s a use case for those pieces, yes, we will definitely make use of it. I hedge my answer, I&#8217;m a developer, but also because I think the real answer is some of that we&#8217;ve baked in our own way in some systems, and what would be nice to move to the way core it, there&#8217;s a lot of momentum in the existing way. If it&#8217;s not broke, don&#8217;t fix it type attitude.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I would think long term, yes, there will be a concerted effort to identify. We need to be more in line with Core. That&#8217;s definitely the goal. WordPress is very powerful and one of the benefits of WordPress is that there&#8217;s a huge community behind it. So from NASA&#8217;s perspective, using WordPress means that I can bring in other or different disciplines to work on this stuff. And the closer we adhere to the way Core does things, even if we were doing it prior to something being merged to Core, course correcting to that is the right way to do it. And I think that there is effort to do that. At this size, it doesn&#8217;t happen quickly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> So Core now&#8230; Well, it&#8217;s still not in Core, but it will come in 6.6 days. Well, patterns have been in core for a long time, and I&#8217;m assuming some of the design systems are translated into patterns for the NASA website. But now with WordPress, you can also create your own as content creator, create your own patterns, and then make them sync over certain sites. Is there functionality that you will roll out, or that you kind of guardrail a little bit, so not to disrupt the system?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yeah, believe it or not, the initial work was done pre-patterns being available. So we have a very similar concept of, you create a new piece of content and it drops in a bunch of blocks, but I mean it&#8217;s effectively the same thing, but our implementation. So yeah, that&#8217;d be wonderful to be able to share stuff like that. I&#8217;ll say the easy way to do it, people literally, not between sites, but within the same site, people will copy and paste content and say, &#8220;That&#8217;s a great way out. I&#8217;ll copy and paste that entirely, and then replace it with my stuff, or adjust accordingly.&#8221; And it&#8217;s cool. That works well, honestly. So yes, it would be awesome if we could exchange patterns, but we do it the poor man&#8217;s way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> The analog way, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Yeah, right, right. Sneaker net. It&#8217;s sneaker net.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. So would you say, Stacy, what&#8217;s next for content creators on NASA in terms of needing more stuff from development? Are there, what are the new requirements that, the new ideas that come out that challenge the developers?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> Yeah, I think that those come in through the, oh, it would be really nice to have this, something like this. And that can be kind of hard for me to list out for you, of what all those things are that our content creators have thought of. &#8220;Oh, I have this piece of content and I would really like to be able to do X, Y, Z with it.&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I can tell you as those are reviewed, or we think about these pieces and parts for our content creators, that they&#8217;re always excited about the new things that come, or even if it&#8217;s just a tweak to an existing block. Like, now you can do this with this block, and it&#8217;s like, &#8220;Oh wow, that&#8217;s really cool. That&#8217;s something that I wanted.&#8221; So I see that for the community is always really receptive and open to the new ideas, and great at sharing feedback and letting us know what they need.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> All right, I think I&#8217;m out of my questions. I learned so much from you two. So is there anything that you wanted to share with your experience that working on the site, that we haven&#8217;t talked about or that you didn&#8217;t get to say all that you wanted to say?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> I think the last thing I&#8217;ll throw out there is, one of the things we&#8217;ve heard is like WordPress is at scale, or WordPress isn&#8217;t enterprise ready, or blah blah blah. And that&#8217;s, I mean, obviously Balderdash, but to see it succeed at this scale has been a ton of fun. My background is agency and previous agencies, I was slow to get in the water on block editor, and what it accomplishes for content creators is significant. We&#8217;re very much headed in the right way, right direction.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Excellent. Stacy, any&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Stacy Holtz:</em> I don&#8217;t have anything else to add.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> All right. Okay. Well, this was fabulous. Thank you so much for coming on the show and letting me ask you all the questions about this phenomenal project that you had on NASA.gov, and all the other sites, the live stream and all that. Dear listeners, I will have all the information that I had in the show notes for this 100th episode, and I&#8217;m really happy that Stacy, you and Gary were celebrating with me the 100th episode of the Gutenberg Changelog. It was fantastic. Thank you so much.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>As always, dear listeners, the show notes will be published on Gutenbergtimes.com/podcast. And if you have questions or suggestions, or news you want us to cover, send them to <a href=\"mailto:Changelog@Gutenbergtimes.com\">Changelog@Gutenbergtimes.com</a>. That&#8217;s <a href=\"mailto:Changelog@Gutenbergtimes.com\">Changelog@Gutenbergtimes.com</a>. And I wish you all a great weekend.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Gary Kovar:</em> Thanks for having us and congrats on a hundred episodes. That&#8217;s awesome.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Thank you.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sun, 19 May 2024 21:59:53 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:19:\"Gutenberg Changelog\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:16;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:129:\"Gutenberg Times: Site builders showing off, Gutenberg 18.3, Alternatives to Meta boxes, Blueprint gallery — Weekend Edition 294\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:35:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?p=28473\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:133:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/site-builders-showing-off-gutenberg-18-3-alternatives-to-meta-boxes-blueprint-gallery-weekend-edition-294/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:24278:\"<p>Howdy,</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s really fascinating that Germany has four bank holidays in the month of May, all close to the weekends. So we got to make some nice weekend trips. The latest to Venice, Italy visiting the exhibition space of<a href=\"https://www.labiennale.org/en/art/2024\"> Biennale Arte 20224</a>, with the &#8220;Foreigners Everywhere&#8221;. We saw incredible creative work from many countries around the world. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>It was good to get away from the computer for a few days and walk through one of the most beautiful cities in Europe and eat great Italian food. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>And now back to the exciting update on WordPress, Gutenberg, and Playground. Many great videos to watch and tutorials to read! </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Have a wonderful weekend. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yours, ?<br /><em>Birgit</em></p>\n\n\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-light-background-background-color has-background\"><div class=\"wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-flow wp-block-group-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><strong>Table of Contents</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<ol><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/site-builders-showing-off-gutenberg-18-3-alternatives-to-meta-boxes-blueprint-gallery-weekend-edition-294/#0-word-press-release-information\">Developing Gutenberg and WordPress</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/site-builders-showing-off-gutenberg-18-3-alternatives-to-meta-boxes-blueprint-gallery-weekend-edition-294/#0-p\">Plugins, Themes, and Tools for #nocode site builders and owners</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/site-builders-showing-off-gutenberg-18-3-alternatives-to-meta-boxes-blueprint-gallery-weekend-edition-294/#2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled\">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/site-builders-showing-off-gutenberg-18-3-alternatives-to-meta-boxes-blueprint-gallery-weekend-edition-294/#3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press\">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/site-builders-showing-off-gutenberg-18-3-alternatives-to-meta-boxes-blueprint-gallery-weekend-edition-294/#wordpress-playground-blueprints\">WordPress Playground + Blueprints</a></li></ol>\n</div></div>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"0-word-press-release-information\">Developing Gutenberg and WordPress</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Over on the Developer Blog, <strong>Justin Tadlock </strong>published the monthly round up of <a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/05/10/whats-new-for-developers-may-2024/\"><strong>What’s new for developers? (May 2024)</strong></a>. Highlights are Community Blueprint Gallery, WordPress 6.6 Roadmap and separate style variations for color and typography. The article also includes a ton of information on user-facing updates theme builders would need to know about. Plugin and tools developers find updates to WordPress components library as well as HTML and Interactivity API. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>First-time release lead, <strong>Jason Crist</strong>, published <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/05/08/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-3-8-may/\"><strong>What’s new in Gutenberg 18.3? (8 May)</strong></a> and highlighted:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/05/08/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-3-8-may/#full-page-client-side-navigation-experiment\">Full page client-side navigation experiment</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/05/08/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-3-8-may/#allow-negative-values-for-margin-controls\">Allow negative values for margin controls</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/05/08/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-3-8-may/#add-defaultfontsizes-option-to-theme-json-incrementing-theme-json-to-v3\">Add defaultFontSizes option to theme.json (incrementing theme.json to v3)</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/05/08/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-3-8-may/#add-publish-flow-in-site-editor\">Add publish flow in site editor</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-accent-color has-light-background-background-color has-text-color has-background has-link-color wp-elements-f177aa95d38cec3bee70ac6dc4e58ab3\">?️ Latest episode: <a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-100-nasa-wordpress-block-editor/\">Gutenberg Changelog #100 – NASA’s New Website – the Switch to WordPress and Block Editor</a> with Stacy Holtz and Gary Kovar, Lone Rock Point</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In their post, <strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/05/09/core-editor-improvement-upgrade-your-designs/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Core Editor Improvement: Upgrade your designs</a></strong>, Anne McCarthy provides insights into the design tools updates coming to WordPress, already available via the Gutenberg plugin.&nbsp;She shares a short overview of the feature and a demo video:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/05/09/core-editor-improvement-upgrade-your-designs/#variations\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Mix &amp; match style variations</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/05/09/core-editor-improvement-upgrade-your-designs/#negative\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Create overlapping designs with negative margins</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/05/09/core-editor-improvement-upgrade-your-designs/#grid\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Embrace the Grid</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>Enjoy the great videos! And all feedback is welcome on the post or on GitHub. You can also join the <a href=\"https://wordpress.slack.com/archives/C015GUFFC00\">WP Slack #outreach channel</a> to get your questions answered and to discuss things with others.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>Once armed with your knowledge, you could also use the <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/test/2024/05/09/early-opportunities-to-test-wordpress-6-6/\"><strong>Early opportunities to Test WordPress 6.6</strong></a> with detail test instructions for about nine different features: </p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/test/2024/05/09/early-opportunities-to-test-wordpress-6-6/#data-views\">Data Views</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/test/2024/05/09/early-opportunities-to-test-wordpress-6-6/#overrides-in-synced-patterns\">Overrides in synced patterns</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/test/2024/05/09/early-opportunities-to-test-wordpress-6-6/#zoom-out-view\">Zoom out view</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/test/2024/05/09/early-opportunities-to-test-wordpress-6-6/#unified-and-refreshed-publish-flow\">Unified and refreshed publish flow</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/test/2024/05/09/early-opportunities-to-test-wordpress-6-6/#mix-and-match-typography-and-color-palettes-from-all-styles-variations\">Mix and match typography and color palettes from all styles variations&nbsp;</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/test/2024/05/09/early-opportunities-to-test-wordpress-6-6/#grid-layout\">Grid layout</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/test/2024/05/09/early-opportunities-to-test-wordpress-6-6/#new-patterns-experience-for-classic-themes\">New patterns experience for Classic themes</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/test/2024/05/09/early-opportunities-to-test-wordpress-6-6/#negative-margins\">Negative margins</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/test/2024/05/09/early-opportunities-to-test-wordpress-6-6/#rollback-autoupdates\">Rollback autoupdates</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n<div class=\"ngl-articles colored ngl-articles-30_70 ngl-articles-frontend\">\n\n	\n	<div class=\"ngl-articles-wrap ngl-articles-webview\">\n	\n						\n			<div class=\"ngl-article-mobile\">\n				<div width=\"100%\" border=\"0\">\n					<div>\n						<div valign=\"top\">\n							<div class=\"ngl-article-mob-wrap\">\n							<div class=\"ngl-article-featured\"><a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/seven-talks-about-blocks-block-themes-and-beyond-at-wordcamp-europe-2024/\" target=\"_self\" rel=\"\"><img src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/wceu2024-1920x1080-1-scaled.jpg?w=652&ssl=1\" /></a></div><div class=\"ngl-article-title\"><a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/seven-talks-about-blocks-block-themes-and-beyond-at-wordcamp-europe-2024/\" target=\"_self\" rel=\"\"><span>Seven talks about blocks, block themes and beyond at WordCamp Europe 2024</span></a></div><div class=\"ngl-article-excerpt\">A curated list of block related talks at WordCamp Europe 2024</div>							</div>\n						</div>\n					</div>\n				</div>\n			</div>\n			\n			\n			\n\n		\n		\n		</div>\n\n</div>\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"0-p\">Plugins, Themes, and Tools for #nocode site builders and owners</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rich Tabor</strong> built a <a href=\"https://rich.blog/dark-mode-toggle-block/\"><strong>new block: Dark Mode Toggle</strong></a>  that adds a toggle between light and dark modes on your website. He shows off this block on his blog. You can also <a href=\"https://github.com/richtabor/dark-mode-toggle-block\">check it out on GitHub </a></p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>The recording of the <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeEhLFWIgv0\"><strong>Website Speed Build Challenge &#8211; Nick Diego and Brian Gardner</strong></a> is now available. <strong>Jamie Marsland </strong>invited two theme builders to rebuild the site of <a href=\"https://pixelgoat.io/\">Pixel Goat </a>with WordPress. Both using Gutenberg only.</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"toolbelt-video-wrapper\"></div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>In the article &#8220;<a href=\"https://alexstandiford.com/articles/blog-posts/i-built-a-knowledge-base-using-the-block-editor-and-whoa\"><strong>I Built a Knowledge Base Using the Block Editor and Whoa</strong></a>,&#8221; <strong>Alex&nbsp;Standiford</strong> shared his experience of creating a knowledge base solely using the WordPress Block Editor. Standiford started on this journey as he found existing solutions either lacking essential features or too complex. In this article, you learn about the process of developing the knowledge base, highlighting how Standiford utilized various block patterns and custom blocks to design an efficient and user-friendly interface. &#8220;Building the actual theme required that basically unlearn everything I know about theme development. After some annoyingly difficult adjustments in my mentality, I was able to get a decent WordPress theme together.&nbsp;&#8221; he also wrote.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>In the latest video from the Learn.WordPress team, Wes Theron shows how to build <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tr0nxCBDaM\"><strong>Advanced WordPress Block Layouts.</strong></a> </p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"toolbelt-video-wrapper\"></div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled\">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Daisy Olsen</strong> just published here course <a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/learning/introduction-to-wordpress-block-themes/what-are-wordpress-block-themes-and-why-build-them\"><strong>Introduction to WordPress Block Themes</strong></a> on LinkedIn. It gets you from zero to hero in 17 Lessons and quizzes. It covers using the Create Block Theme plugin and how to make the design choices via the site editor and stylebook. Olsen also covers the adjustments you need to make the navigation block transferable, so your theme can be used on other people&#8217;s site</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jessica Lyschik</strong> recorded her process for <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoUPhbhxLmo\"><strong>Turning a Adobe XD Design into a WordPress Block Theme</strong></a> using a design provided by Lesley Sim of Mailerglue.com. Sim <a href=\"https://x.com/lesley_pizza/status/1790332657475461374\">shared some frustrations</a> on X (former Twitter)  trying to replicate her site with the site editor. Lyschik was the co-lead developer for the Twenty-Twenty-Four default theme, she used to build the site and share  tips and tricks, including how to make it accessibility-friendly.</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"toolbelt-video-wrapper\"></div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>&nbsp;<a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">&#8220;Keeping up with Gutenberg &#8211; Index 2024&#8221;</a>&nbsp;</strong><br />A chronological list of the WordPress Make Blog posts from various teams involved in Gutenberg development: Design, Theme Review Team, Core Editor, Core JS, Core CSS, Test, and Meta team from Jan. 2024 on. Updated by yours truly. The previous years are also available: <strong><strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2020/\">2020</a>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2021/\">2021</a></strong>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2022/\">2022</a></strong></strong>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/gutenberg-index-2023\">2023</a></strong></p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press\">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>During the latest edition of the WordPress <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKDl_gB-IwY\"><strong>Developer Hours: Alternatives to Custom Meta Boxes in the WordPress Block Editor</strong></a>, Nick Diego and Ryan Welcher discussed ways on how to create a block editor experience for data that has conventionally handled by meta boxes. </p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"toolbelt-video-wrapper\"></div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>A new tutorial arrived at the WordPress Developer Blog! <strong>Justin Tadlock</strong> walks you through the steps to <a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/05/06/building-a-book-review-site-with-block-bindings-part-1-custom-fields-and-block-variations/\"><strong>Build a book review site with Block Bindings, part 1: Custom fields and block variations</strong></a>. In this first part, you learn how to register custom fields, connect them to blocks, create block variations for paragraph block and create a nice data input UI in the block editor.  And stay tuned for Part 2.  </p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-right\"><a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/subscribe/\"><em>Don&#8217;t ever miss a developer blog post again. Subscribe!</em></a></p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://twitter.com/gogarrio\"><strong>Greg Ogarrio</strong></a> writes about the <a href=\"https://wpvip.com/2024/05/14/reasons-love-wordpress-gutenberg-editor/\"><strong>4 Reasons to Love the WordPress Gutenberg Block Editor</strong></a>&nbsp;on the WordPress VIP blog. He emphasizes Gutenberg&#8217;s user-friendly interface, its flexibility with blocks, and the improved control it offers users over their content layout. Additionally, Ogarrio mentions the wide range of customization options available which are accessible even to those without advanced technical skills. He also highlights the active development and community support surrounding Gutenberg, ensuring it constantly evolves to meet user needs.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>Did you check out the <a href=\"https://github.com/WordPress/block-development-examples\"><strong>WordPress Block Development</strong> <strong>Examples Repo</strong></a> lately? You&#8217;ll find 25 examples of how to build different blocks for different use cases, among them a Recipe Card, an interactive count-down, block with post metadata and so on. The latest addition is a plugin on how to add a modal to update post metadata, as an alternative to conventional WordPress meta boxes.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong><a href=\"https://twitter.com/davidfcarr\">David F Carr</a></strong>, developer of the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/rsvpmaker/\"><em>RSVP Maker plugin</em></a> and online publishing expert, shared his approach of <strong><a href=\"https://davidfcarr.com/transforming-a-single-wordpress-block-into-a-block-variation-with-innerblocks/\">Transforming a Single WordPress Block into a Block Variation with InnerBlocks. </a></strong>&#8220;The virtue of block variations is they allow you to inherit all the best qualities of an existing block while adding a few tweaks, such as an InnerBlocks template or additional controls.&#8221; he wrote. The real-world examples and the shared code will &#8220;shortcut the process for someone else who might face a similar scenario.&#8221; Carr hopes. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Aurooba Ahmed</strong> and <strong>Brian Coords</strong> shared their journey <strong>Exploring the Interactivity API in WordPress</strong> in  <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZnJvnpLf2A\">Part 1</a> and <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5hUuyXMW_0\">Part 2</a>. You&#8217;ll learn  what the new API entails, how to use it and the challenges they encountered. They also cover the HTML directives, how to use them with custom blocks and how to hydrate date. </p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns alignwide is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-1 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"toolbelt-video-wrapper\"></div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<div class=\"toolbelt-video-wrapper\"></div>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>On his Live stream, <strong>Ryan Welcher</strong> built a to-do app  with the Interactivity API. You can follow along in two videos: </p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWUE2StCp_M\">Building a To-Do app with the Interactivity API</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiH9lnoYPHQ\">Final touches on the Interactivity API To-do app</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong><a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/need-a-zip-from-master/\">Need a plugin .zip from Gutenberg&#8217;s master branch?</a></strong><br />Gutenberg Times provides daily build for testing and review. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now also available via <a href=\"https://playground.wordpress.net/?blueprint-url=https://gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/playnightly.json\">WordPress Playground</a>. There is no need for a test site locally or on a server. Have you been using it? <a href=\"mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com\">Email me </a>with your experience</p>\n\n\n\n<p><img alt=\"GitHub all releases\" src=\"https://img.shields.io/github/downloads/bph/gutenberg/total?style=for-the-badge\" /></p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"wordpress-playground-blueprints\">WordPress Playground + Blueprints</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Not entirely related to the block editor or Gutenberg, though increasingly popular, is the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/playground/\">WordPress Playground</a> tool for testing, development and demos. Plugin developers use it for the Live Preview on the WordPress plugin repository, I use it for the Gutenberg Nightly. Playground gives you WordPress in the browser. No need for PHP, Apache, or Nginx or Database. <a href=\"https://playground.wordpress.net\">Just click on the link and work with WordPress. </a></p>\n\n\n\n<p>On the Developer Blog, Ronny Shani published two articles about WordPress Playground:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/04/05/introduction-to-playground-running-wordpress-in-the-browser/\">Introduction to Playground: running WordPress in the browser</a> and </li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/04/25/how-to-use-wordpress-playground-for-interactive-demos/\">How to use WordPress Playground for interactive demos</a>. </li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>This week, the Meta team announced a new community project: <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/meta/2024/05/15/the-blueprint-gallery-share-your-wordpress-creations-with-playground/\"><strong>The Blueprint Gallery: Share your WordPress creations with Playground</strong></a> &#8211; a space to find and share examples on how to configure WordPress Playground for various scenarios, depending on the use case. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>On May 28, 2024, I will also part of the <a href=\"https://www.meetup.com/learn-wordpress-online-workshops/events/301036465/\"><strong>Developer Hours: Creating WordPress Playground Blueprints for Testing and Demos</strong></a> together with Nick Diego. It&#8217;ll take place at 15:00 UTC (9 am EDT) and will be recorded. We will talk through some examples in the Blueprint Gallery. </p>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://www.meetup.com/learn-wordpress-online-workshops/events/301036465/\"><img width=\"600\" height=\"338\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/600_521082144.webp?resize=600%2C338&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-28643\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center has-small-font-size\"><em>Questions? Suggestions? Ideas? </em><br /><em>Don&#8217;t hesitate to send <a href=\"mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com\">them via email</a> or</em><br /><em> send me a message on WordPress Slack or Twitter @bph</em>.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" />\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center has-small-font-size\">For questions to be answered on the <a href=\"http://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast\">Gutenberg Changelog</a>, <br />send them to <a href=\"mailto:changelog@gutenbergtimes.com\">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a></p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>Featured Image: Gondoliers in Venice photo by Birgit Pauli-Haack</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-text-align-left\"><strong>Don&#8217;t want to miss the next Weekend Edition? </strong></p>\n\n\n<form class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-form ngl-form ngl-portrait\" action=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/feed/\" method=\"post\"><div class=\"ngl-form-container\"><div class=\"ngl-form-field\"><label class=\"ngl-form-label\" for=\"ngl_email\"><br />Type in your Email address to subscribe.</label><div class=\"ngl-form-input\"><input type=\"email\" class=\"ngl-form-input-text\" name=\"ngl_email\" id=\"ngl_email\" /></div></div><button type=\"submit\" class=\"ngl-form-button\">Subscribe</button><p class=\"ngl-form-text\">We hate spam, too, and won&#8217;t give your email address to anyone <br />except Mailchimp to send out our Weekend Edition</p></div><div class=\"ngl-message-overlay\"><div class=\"ngl-message-svg-wrap\"></div><div class=\"ngl-message-overlay-text\">Thanks for subscribing.</div></div><input type=\"hidden\" name=\"ngl_list_id\" id=\"ngl_list_id\" value=\"26f81bd8ae\" /><input type=\"hidden\" name=\"ngl_double_optin\" id=\"ngl_double_optin\" value=\"yes\" /></form>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-css-opacity is-style-wide\" />\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sat, 18 May 2024 03:37:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:18:\"Birgit Pauli-Haack\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:17;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:11:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:1:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:61:\"HeroPress: HeroPress In Bolivia, WCEU And European Parliament\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:29:\"https://heropress.com/?p=6814\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:165:\"https://heropress.com/heropress-in-bolivia-wceu-and-european-parliament/#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=heropress-in-bolivia-wceu-and-european-parliament\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:12215:\"<img width=\"1024\" height=\"683\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/8366437dda3c8568.03141111-1024x683.jpg\" class=\"attachment-large size-large wp-post-image\" alt=\"Strange button panel on a rusty elevator\" /><div class=\"wp-block-kadence-spacer aligncenter kt-block-spacer-6814_fc5ce6-1e\"><div class=\"kt-block-spacer kt-block-spacer-halign-center\"><hr class=\"kt-divider\" /></div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"kb-row-layout-wrap kb-row-layout-id6814_f5d794-b6 alignnone kt-row-has-bg wp-block-kadence-rowlayout\"><div class=\"kt-row-column-wrap kt-has-1-columns kt-row-layout-equal kt-tab-layout-inherit kt-mobile-layout-row kt-row-valign-top kb-theme-content-width\">\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-column kadence-column6814_497f3e-90 inner-column-1\"><div class=\"kt-inside-inner-col\">\n<h2 class=\"kt-adv-heading6814_7c7c0a-bd wp-block-kadence-advancedheading\">HeroPress In Italy</h2>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/wceu_updates.jpg\"><img width=\"1024\" height=\"296\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/wceu_updates-1024x296.jpg\" alt=\"WCEU Latest Updates\" class=\"wp-image-6680\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<p>WordCamp Europe 2024 is just a few weeks away! We also have some exciting news to share!</p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>WordCamp Europe has been granted a prestigious patronage from the European Parliament.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Patronage is a way for the European Parliament to grant its moral support to a selected number of non-profit quality events with a clear European dimension.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>You can <a href=\"https://europe.wordcamp.org/2024/wordcamp-europe-receives-patronage-from-the-european-parliament/\">read more about this</a> on the WCEU website.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Who are we going to see at WCEU? Stop by the <a href=\"https://heropress.com/slack/\">HeroPress Slack</a> and let is know, I&#8217;d love to touch base with you!</p>\n</div></div>\n\n</div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-spacer aligncenter kt-block-spacer-6814_d2083a-ee\"><div class=\"kt-block-spacer kt-block-spacer-halign-center\"><hr class=\"kt-divider\" /></div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"kb-row-layout-wrap kb-row-layout-id6814_35ebad-55 alignnone kt-row-has-bg wp-block-kadence-rowlayout\"><div class=\"kt-row-column-wrap kt-has-1-columns kt-row-layout-equal kt-tab-layout-inherit kt-mobile-layout-row kt-row-valign-top kb-theme-content-width\">\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-column kadence-column6814_798646-1d inner-column-1\"><div class=\"kt-inside-inner-col\">\n<h2 class=\"kt-adv-heading6814_e4e08b-65 wp-block-kadence-advancedheading\"><a href=\"https://heropress.com/\">HeroPress.com</a> &#8211; <a href=\"https://heropress.com/essays/from-blogging-to-wordpress-communities-a-bolivian-tale/\">From Blogging to WordPress Communities: A Bolivian tale – De Blogger a comunidades de WordPress: Una historia boliviana</a></h2>\n\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image is-style-default\">\n<img width=\"300\" height=\"300\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/carla-300x300.jpg\" alt=\"Carla Doria Medina\" class=\"wp-image-3624\" /></div>\n\n\n<p>We have far fewer HeroPressers from South America than I&#8217;d like, which is one reason I&#8217;m so grateful to Carla Doria Medina from Bolivia.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Soon after finding there wasn’t any community, I started to dig more information about what was needed to organize one. I talked about the idea with some colleagues and they provided good insights. But I was still debating inside myself, who would start it? Was it me? It couldn’t be. It was true I provided technical support for blogs and websites, but I knew nothing about coding, plugin or theme development. It had to be somebody else, an expert WordPress developer,  <strong>not me</strong>.</em></p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carla&#8217;s essay is <a href=\"https://heropress.com/essays/from-blogging-to-wordpress-communities-a-bolivian-tale/\">available</a> on <a href=\"https://heropress.com\">HeroPress.com</a>.</p>\n</div></div>\n\n</div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-spacer aligncenter kt-block-spacer-6814_ed973b-c1\"><div class=\"kt-block-spacer kt-block-spacer-halign-center\"><hr class=\"kt-divider\" /></div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"kb-row-layout-wrap kb-row-layout-id6814_cac35c-b3 alignnone kt-row-has-bg wp-block-kadence-rowlayout\"><div class=\"kt-row-column-wrap kt-has-1-columns kt-row-layout-equal kt-tab-layout-inherit kt-mobile-layout-row kt-row-valign-top kb-theme-content-width\">\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-column kadence-column6814_eac30b-2e inner-column-1\"><div class=\"kt-inside-inner-col\">\n<h2 class=\"kt-adv-heading6814_6ceabb-1e wp-block-kadence-advancedheading\"><a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com\">WP Podcasts</a></h2>\n\n\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com\"><img src=\"https://heropressnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/pocket_casts_single_315.png\" alt=\"Pocket Casts image\" class=\"wp-image-4316\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<p>There were <em>Twenty-five</em> WordPress podcast episodes released this week!</p>\n\n\n\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https://kitchensinkwp.com/podcast-e533-interview-with-tara-claeys/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=podcast-e533-interview-with-tara-claeys#new_tab\">Podcast E533 – Interview with Tara Claeys</a> from <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com/podcast/kitchensink-wordpress-podcast/\">Kitchensink WordPress Podcast</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://unbilleteachattanooga.com/episodio-262-vivir-del-seo-con-sofia-calle/#new_tab\">Episodio 262: Vivir del SEO, con Sofía Calle</a> from <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com/podcast/un-billete-a-chattanooga/\">Un billete a Chattanooga</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://wp-tonic-show-a-wordpress-podcast.castos.com/episodes/913-wp-tonic-show-growing-a-personal-brand-online-successfully-in-2024#new_tab\">#913 – WP-Tonic Show: Growing a Personal Brand Online Successfully in 2024</a> from <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com/podcast/wp-tonic/\">WP-Tonic</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://dothewoo.io/all-you-need-to-know-about-wceu-2024-with-organizers-hacer-liza-and-piermario/#new_tab\">All You Need to Know About WCEU 2024 with Organizers Hacer, Liza and Piermario</a> from <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com/podcast/do-the-woo-a-woocommerce-podcast/\">Do the Woo – A WooCommerce Podcast</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/the-sdm-show/episodes/Episode-415-Why-You-Should-Attend-In-Person-Events-e2jlgfe#new_tab\">Episode 415: Why You Should Attend In-Person Events</a> from <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com/podcast/the-sdm-show/\">The SDM Show</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>There are new episodes every single day, so be sure to stop by <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com\">WPPodcasts.com</a> and search for things that interest you!</p>\n</div></div>\n\n</div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-spacer aligncenter kt-block-spacer-6814_dc7090-58\"><div class=\"kt-block-spacer kt-block-spacer-halign-center\"><hr class=\"kt-divider\" /></div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"kb-row-layout-wrap kb-row-layout-id6814_fce59e-73 alignnone kt-row-has-bg wp-block-kadence-rowlayout\"><div class=\"kt-row-column-wrap kt-has-1-columns kt-row-layout-equal kt-tab-layout-inherit kt-mobile-layout-row kt-row-valign-top kb-theme-content-width\">\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-column kadence-column6814_d18914-5a inner-column-1\"><div class=\"kt-inside-inner-col\">\n<h2 id=\"wpphotos\" class=\"kt-adv-heading6814_f065c6-a1 wp-block-kadence-advancedheading\"><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos\">WP Photos</a></h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Here are some of the great photos submitted to the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos\">WPPhotos</a> project this week!</p>\n\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/495664213703fc9e1.45235693-scaled.jpg\"><img width=\"1024\" height=\"768\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/495664213703fc9e1.45235693-1024x768.jpg\" alt=\"Dramatic storm cloud formation over a highway,\" class=\"wp-image-6823\" /></a><a href=\"https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/\">CC0</a> licensed <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/4956642137/\">photo</a> by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/author/topher1kenobe/\">Topher</a> from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/286643595656cd71.30348543-scaled.jpg\"><img width=\"1024\" height=\"719\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/286643595656cd71.30348543-1024x719.jpg\" alt=\"Close-up of an Italian Stiped Bug (Graphosoma italicum) against a blurred green background.\" class=\"wp-image-6822\" /></a><a href=\"https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/\">CC0</a> licensed <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/2866435956/\">photo</a> by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/author/werkform/\">werkform</a> from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13066410673d67185.48364473-scaled.jpg\"><img width=\"1024\" height=\"683\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13066410673d67185.48364473-1024x683.jpg\" alt=\"Close up of a grasshopper.\" class=\"wp-image-6821\" /></a><a href=\"https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/\">CC0</a> licensed <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/1306641067/\">photo</a> by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/author/creativemz/\">creativemz</a> from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/36166459e30d2c216.21440976-scaled.jpg\"><img width=\"1024\" height=\"683\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/36166459e30d2c216.21440976-1024x683.jpg\" alt=\"A seagull standing alone on a sandy beach.\" class=\"wp-image-6820\" /></a><a href=\"https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/\">CC0</a> licensed <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/36166459e3/\">photo</a> by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/author/nilovelez/\">Nilo Velez</a> from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/749663dd750d260f3.91441057-scaled.jpg\"><img width=\"1024\" height=\"683\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/749663dd750d260f3.91441057-1024x683.jpg\" alt=\"Typical Spanish road sign over a yellow wheat field.\" class=\"wp-image-6819\" /></a><a href=\"https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/\">CC0</a> licensed <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/749663dd75/\">photo</a> by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/author/nilovelez/\">Nilo Velez</a> from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/130663dac7543d114.47420552-scaled.jpg\"><img width=\"1024\" height=\"768\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/130663dac7543d114.47420552-1024x768.jpg\" alt=\"Cloudy Afternoon in Village with Sunset\" class=\"wp-image-6818\" /></a><a href=\"https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/\">CC0</a> licensed <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/130663dac7/\">photo</a> by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/author/rafs45/\">Sayemur Rahman</a> from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.\n\n\n\n\n<p>Be sure to check out the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">hundreds of other great photos</a>!</p>\n</div></div>\n\n</div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-spacer\"></div>\n\n\n\n<p>The banner at the top of this post is a <a href=\"https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/\">CC0</a> licensed <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/8366437dda/\">photo</a> by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/author/nilovelez/\">Nilo Velez</a> from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s it for this week! If you&#8217;d like to get this post in your email every week, <a href=\"https://heropressnetwork.com/newsletter\">make sure you sign up</a>!</p>\n<p>The post <a href=\"https://heropress.com/heropress-in-bolivia-wceu-and-european-parliament/\">HeroPress In Bolivia, WCEU And European Parliament</a> appeared first on <a href=\"https://heropress.com\">HeroPress</a>.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 17 May 2024 18:00:41 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:18;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:80:\"Do The Woo Community: What’s Happening with Do the Woo at WordCamp Europe 2024\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=83509\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:76:\"https://dothewoo.io/whats-happening-with-do-the-woo-at-wordcamp-europe-2024/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:134:\"You can meet us at contributor day, our sponsor table, or the many other side events going on. 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My name Is Nathan Wrigley.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jukebox is podcast which Is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, one person&#8217;s story about the struggles of transitioning from a freelancer into an agency manager.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com forward slash feed forward slash podcast. And you can copy that URL in to most podcast players.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com forward slash contact forward slash jukebox, and use the form there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So on the podcast today, we have Alexander Gilmanov. Alexander comes to us today from Belgrade, Serbia. He&#8217;s a full stack developer with a rich heritage of freelance and agency work. His company officially launched in 2014 and they&#8217;ve continued to work with clients as well as creating a range of WordPress plugins, and their own SaaS apps.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Slightly unusually for this podcast, I decided to break the content up into two parts. You&#8217;ll hear the first part today, and part two will be coming out in the next episode.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re a developer and are in the weeds of writing code, perhaps you&#8217;ve thought about a change of direction. This could be changing the place where you work, but it could also mean starting an agency and moving towards a more managerial role. This is what Alexander did, and this podcast charts, his journey. The highs and the lows, the epiphanes and the moments of regret.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We explore Alexander&#8217;s transition from hands-on coding to strategic management. He shares insights into his initial roles, where he juggled multiple tasks and managed client expectations as a freelancer. This foundation, not only honed his technical skills, but also prepared him for the complexities of leading a business.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We talk about how Alexander&#8217;s management style has evolved over the years. Starting out,</p>\n\n\n\n<p>he faced the typical challenges of delegation and supervising a growing team. Trying to understand individual personalities and communication styles to create a functional working environment. His approach emphasizes the need for breaking down large tasks into smaller, more achievable goals. A method that has proven instrumental in managing both projects and people effectively.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also discussed the critical role of autonomy in the workplace, particularly how Alexander has learned to trust and empower his employees based upon their experience levels, leading to greater productivity and satisfaction for everyone.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>He reflects on the key lessons learned from the earlier phase of his career, where he underestimated the importance of project managers. And how this realization led him to restructure his business operations to optimize efficiency and output.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s a fascinating conversation, and if you&#8217;ve wanted to start an agency, but have concerns about what that might bring, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>A quick note before we begin the recording quality on Alexander&#8217;s side, wasn&#8217;t superb, but I&#8217;ve done my best to make the audio as easy to listen to as possible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com forward slash podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so without further delay, I bring you. Alexander Gilmanov.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:07] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I am joined on the podcast today by Alexander Gilmanov. Hi, Alexander.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:18] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Hi. Thank you for having me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:20] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You are really welcome. You were brought to my attention, actually, what I&#8217;m about to say is not entirely true, and I&#8217;ll tell you why in a moment. But you were brought to my attention recently by Tammie Lister, who was recently on this podcast, and she mentioned that on a different podcast, she had been chatting to you about a subject which is going to be the main course of the podcast today. It&#8217;s all about moving away from being a developer, into being a manager.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the reason that I have known about you, if not spoken to you before, is because of the products that you&#8217;ve got in the WordPress space. And so let&#8217;s talk a little bit about that. First of all, Alexander, would you mind just introducing yourself? Maybe talk about the plugins that you&#8217;ve got in the WordPress space, just so that we know a little bit about you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:04] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Of course. Yeah, so as you already mentioned, I am the founder and CEO at the software products company. My own background used to be full stack development, a little bit of desktop development, and web development, and WordPress development. And I had a transition from being a developer to becoming a manager, and the founder, and the CEO of the company. Currently we are at 43 people, and still growing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So yeah, it was quite a journey. But before talking with Tammie and Jonathan, I didn&#8217;t realise actually that it might be of interest, and it might be useful to some developers out there, that are maybe also considering switching to managerial roles, or becoming founders.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Then a couple of words on the products. Our first product that helped us to start the company was wpDataTables. It was initially a data management, but more a table plugin, a plugin that helped you create interactive tables on the website. Later we added charts, data management, database management, and now it does more and more in the area of data management, data visualisation, data manipulation, and so on.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The other plugin that probably more people know is called Amelia. It&#8217;s a booking plugin, mostly appointments, bookings for businesses like salons, healthcare industry, home services, photographers. We have so many different use cases. So practically, any business that provides certain services within certain timeframes, and can use scheduling tools, accept online bookings, online payments, and there are lots of things around it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And our third product is called Trafft. It is actually something like a SaaS version of Amelia. It&#8217;s not a WordPress plugin, it&#8217;s a standalone platform, but we do have a native integration with WordPress. And the reason for that, why we decided to make it as a separate product, was because we saw that once businesses get to grow, they no longer want to manage the website, and the bookings from the same dashboard, from the same place.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And also, many of them don&#8217;t want the burden of monitoring, backing things up, et cetera. Everything that an average WordPress hosting, many hostings don&#8217;t do that. And we do that for them on our platform. So yeah, that&#8217;s in short what we do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:39] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That&#8217;s great. Thank you. A really interesting collection of products there. We are going to be telling the story really though of a part of your life. We&#8217;re not going to get into the personal things, but we&#8217;re going to talk about a real change in your life. Your move away from being a developer to being a manager of, currently, a company of 43 people. Which is no small task, I&#8217;m sure.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You were saying to me, before we hit record, that you weren&#8217;t really sure that this story would be of interest to people. And obviously I&#8217;m in disagreement with that, because I&#8217;ve got you on the podcast to have that conversation. But there&#8217;s going to be a very large amount, I would&#8217;ve thought, of developers who listen to this podcast, people who are writing the code, working in an agency.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And maybe there&#8217;s a proportion of them who are thinking about, well, what could I do with my life differently? Do I always have to be a developer? Is that something that I can move away from? And maybe management, owning a company, running a company, and all of that, would be of interest to them. So, okay, let&#8217;s rewind the clock. How far are we going back in time, before you had an intuition that development, for you, wasn&#8217;t going to be the rest of your life?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:48] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> I can&#8217;t think of an exact moment in time when it clicked. And also, I really have hopes that I will get the chance to code again one day. I really miss it, to be honest. But I would say, for me, it was a transition from being a developer, to being an entrepreneur and a founder. And being a manager is just one of the roles within being an entrepreneur.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think, almost from the beginning of my career, I did have an ambition of creating something of my own. So it was out there more or less all the time, I just didn&#8217;t know how to do that. I transitioned through being a developer. I didn&#8217;t start my company right away, but I created my first plugin, my first piece of code, and started selling it. And this was maybe the moment when the exact transition happened.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But some changes in the mindset, I would say, happened before that, because I was freelancing a lot. I was doing a lot of freelance development back in my hometown, for some local companies. Later started working on some platforms like, I&#8217;m not going to call the names, but there are many freelance based platforms where you can get either a website, or part of the website to develop, as a freelancer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I think being a freelancer really trains you for being your own manager. And that&#8217;s the first thing you learn, to first manage your own time, your own budgets, expectations of the client, all that. It helps you to start managing other people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:20] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I think that managing other people is quite a skill. So being able to manage your own time is one thing, I&#8217;m okay at that. But if that were to stretch beyond the confines of my own life, I think that would be really difficult. And my guess would be that you&#8217;ve probably, in the growth of your business, you&#8217;ve probably had moments where it&#8217;s gone really well, and the management of the people has gone really well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Equally, I&#8217;m sure that there&#8217;s moments where you&#8217;ve looked at yourself and thought, oh gosh, this is not going so well. Are there any kind of fundamental skills, looking back over the last period of time, you think that you are equipped with? Whether that was through education, or whether that was just through the genetics that you were given. Are there any things that you think, looking back, okay, this thing equipped me to be a boss, and without that thing, have a long, hard think about acquiring that thing?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:14] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Yeah, there were a few things in my career, and my personal life that helped me with that. And I think there are two parts of that. First is, I&#8217;d say managing tasks and understanding the whole, and then dividing the whole into subtasks. Seeing the wider picture, and then dividing it into details, is like one skill.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Very important for a manager, for a product manager, whatever you name it. I mean, it can have different variations. It can be just developer manager, or like engineering manager. But more or less, this is the fundamental skill.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You need first to understand, what are we working on? What is something we want to achieve, the end value? We want to give our users, our customers, and then divide it into independent tasks. This is not something that to get equipped with, I&#8217;d say.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For me, I think the first very large project was my PhD study, because it&#8217;s project that lasts for, for me it lasted almost four years. It had lots of components, very different ones like writing the study itself, writing the software, preparing the scientific part, writing scientific publications, leading some courses in the university, finding opponents in the scientific world.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>All of this takes a lot of time. Most of the things won&#8217;t go as planned. You need to take a step back 9 out of 10 times. This trains your brain to approach this very calmly, not rush things. This creates sort of a skillset you need to manage. First manage yourself, then other people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is, I&#8217;d say, more or less a hard skill. Something you can manage through project management software, task lists, checklists, this sort of thing. But more importantly, you need to understand how to communicate with people. How to talk with people. How to explain things to people. So all of this falls under soft skills.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I think it was one of the key things for me, because I always worked with computers. And then you start working with human beings that don&#8217;t have algorithms, don&#8217;t have buttons, procedures. You have two developers, but both have different characters, and you need to approach them differently.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And yeah, this is also not something I&#8217;d say you come equipped with, and you need to learn that. For example, initially I tried to solve every issue that arises with an email. And sometimes when I was a little bit scared of something or frustrated, I would write a very angry email, and write it to the whole company and say like, this is your final warning, and things like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And it took me maybe a year or two to realise that it&#8217;s actually the wrong way to solve things, and I only create internal pressure and frustration for people, and create more distance between us, and ultimately doesn&#8217;t serve the end purpose.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So yeah, for me, as a developer, it was maybe one of the hardest parts. To have internal meetings with the team, to speak with people one-on-one, in the team meetings have retrospectives, share openly what maybe frustrates me, and allow them to share openly what frustrates them, and not be afraid that I as a boss, as a manager, will punish them somehow. So I&#8217;d say those are the categories of skills you need to develop to become a manager.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:36] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I think that&#8217;s really interesting. You know, you talked about the PhD, obviously this giant four year project, where you can imagine the goal, the goal line, the finish line, four years away, and you&#8217;re on day one. You know that this giant thing is stretching out ahead of you, I guess it is a process of just, okay, breaking it down. What can I do this year, this month, this day?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that atomising of it all, just sort of trying to distill it into different jobs, that&#8217;s really important. I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m good at that. I&#8217;m sure that my characteristics aren&#8217;t very good at taking in the whole, and breaking it down in a calm way. But having that capability, I guess could be learnt. But learning and having that capability over time, really important.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But also, like you said, the human element is maybe even more important at the end of the day. Because you&#8217;re not going to get anything out of your coworkers, your employees, if they don&#8217;t feel compelled to work with you, and for you. If there&#8217;s just tension or, goodness, even hatred, then the whole thing is going to collapse like a house of cards.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But forgive me, dear listener, you are listening to this. I have this intuition that developers, now, this is not going to be the case for everybody, but I think that developers can have a certain tendency to, there&#8217;s just a way of being a developer, isn&#8217;t it? There&#8217;s a certain mindset which works effectively with code, and it doesn&#8217;t always translate into working with humans.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so being able to stop yourself and say, oh hang on, that is not an algorithm standing over there. If I tell it to do this thing, it might go off and do something entirely unexpected, and I need to be able to accommodate that. I need to be able to understand that. So identifying that in yourself is, yeah, it&#8217;s pretty impressive.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And the fact that you&#8217;ve been able, over time, to unpick that in yourself and say, well, hang on Alexander, slow down. Don&#8217;t write that email because they&#8217;re not an algorithm. Think about the human, we&#8217;ll see where this goes. Okay, this is really interesting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:33] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Just one thing came to my head. One thing I remembered while we were talking. One of the switches I had in this process was, at first when I started working with a team, the team of developers, I tried approaching those people as processors, servers, something like that. And like really giving them detailed instructions on what we need to do, and how we need to do this.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then when something didn&#8217;t quite work out, I think, okay, maybe the instruction isn&#8217;t detailed enough, so let&#8217;s take every step, and give an instruction for every step. And in the end, it turned out to be harder to prepare all those instructions, instead of just doing things all by myself.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s sometimes easier to write a piece of code myself, than to create an instruction on like how the coach should look, where to put all the classes and methods, and all that. And this is something, it didn&#8217;t come overnight. I realised that, first of all, you need to hire the right people for the job. So you can&#8217;t just hire a student and give a senior grade task, and expect it to be delivered.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Then when you have the right person, yes, you do need to give them guidelines, and the end goals, and the problem, and good description of what we need to achieve in the end, but you don&#8217;t need to guide them all the way through. And especially for developers, when you are managing developers, you are like taking away all the juice from their job if you&#8217;re giving them too precise instructions. Because they want to create, they want to think of their own architecture, how they write their own elegant code. And if they receive an instruction, like if they&#8217;re a script or a server, it&#8217;s just not interesting for them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:08] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I think that&#8217;s really interesting. The idea being that, obviously as a manager, you have to manage. There has to be a certain amount of that. But also there has to be an element of, okay, here&#8217;s the task, just go ahead and do it. Not prescriptively writing the exact instruction for every single facet of that job.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Obviously, enough instruction so that the job can be understood by that person, but not standing over them every minute of every day just worrying about whether it&#8217;s going to be achieved. I guess the better employees will figure that out for themselves. They&#8217;ll go away, they&#8217;ll have autonomy, if they&#8217;re confused, they&#8217;ll come back, you can have a conversation. It&#8217;s not always top down that works most effectively.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:48] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> I would say you need to approach different employees differently. So when interns just join us, developer interns, actually they do want this kind of instruction. And it&#8217;s better to have someone mentor them, do peer review, give them guidance, and provide instructions for how to develop a task. They would actually enjoy it much more because, if they join a company after, for example, graduating, and they didn&#8217;t yet have some practical coding experience, they want this from the company. They want to get some guidance, some mentoring, some senior developer to evaluate their code, and point the mistakes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But as they get more senior, actually autonomy is a very important motivation factor. And if you take it from them, you demotivate them. Because seniors want to research modern technology, libraries, services. And if they receive instructions like, use this library, the task gets too dull for them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:48] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, so having a handle on each employee, and judging where they are in the hierarchy of all of that. So, like you said, somebody that&#8217;s new may want to be shepherded and guided much more, because they are really unfamiliar with the company culture, the expectations of the work that they need to output on a monthly basis. But as experience develops, and your relationship with them grows, I guess, you know where the boundaries lie a little bit more, because you&#8217;ve built up that relationship.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You know that if you give them an incredibly difficult task, and don&#8217;t give them too many instructions, they can do it. But that other person over there, they might need a bit more shepherding, even though they&#8217;re, I don&#8217;t know, more senior. Okay, so getting to know your employees is a crucial part.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, I have to say, Alexander has shared with me some show notes which are amazing. It&#8217;s very rare that the guest goes into such enormous detail, and so I&#8217;m incredibly grateful for that. I know that it&#8217;s also so that you can structure your own thoughts about blog posts, and things in the future about this topic.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But one of the sections which I thought was of most interest was how you charted your personal journey from, well, the different kind of work that you did. So from being a freelance, to working with friends. And I&#8217;d just like you to jump through that history for us, because it may be that somebody listening to this is somewhere on that ladder of different things. And the evolution that you&#8217;ve gone through over time, beginning with freelancing, maybe it&#8217;s hard for you to sum all of that up, but I&#8217;m going to hand it over and see if you can do that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:21:11] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> So yes, I mentioned initially, and as you mentioned right now, I started with freelancing, and it taught me a lot about managing. Because management, especially when you&#8217;re not the owner, and when it&#8217;s more like an agency work, where you develop something for clients, is about organising tasks, about organising time, maybe managing others. But it&#8217;s also about managing the client&#8217;s expectations, understanding what they want.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And this is sometimes the hardest part, especially for freelancers. People keep coming back and saying, they know what they don&#8217;t want, but they&#8217;re not sure about what they want to achieve in the end. And getting a specific requirement out of this conversation is very hard. But it&#8217;s also a very tough school, and it helped me later in the journey.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And as my freelancing evolved, at one point the projects started growing, and at one point it wasn&#8217;t just small website that I could develop in three, four weeks. It was something like a web app that people want developed maybe in a month or two, and this is something I cannot deliver on my own. I had to start thinking about building a team back then.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I had a couple of friends, and naturally we started working with them. And because they were my friends, we were relatively similar in the coding styles. We understood each other really well. The management part came very natural. So I would just prepare the requirements, divide it between three of us. And we sat in the same room, and it was very easy to think. And actually the first experience was very inspiring. We were able to deliver things. We scaled the development and it went well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:22:50] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Can I just interrupt there? Just very briefly. Do you ever look back on that time and think, I wish I&#8217;d stayed there? Because that sounds like a really, a nice environment to work in. I mean, obviously, you know, the financial reward of that probably isn&#8217;t quite so great. Maybe the complexity of the work that you can take on, maybe isn&#8217;t so great. But I imagine there&#8217;s a lot of people who are there and thinking, well, actually that&#8217;s okay. I&#8217;ve got my friends around me, the code is something that we can all share and understand, life&#8217;s good.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:19] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Sometimes it is. For me particularly, it wasn&#8217;t, because it was still early in the journey, the level of projects wasn&#8217;t something which I wanted to have. The good thing is, one of the friends is right here with me today in the office, so he stayed with me on the journey.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:36] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It does sound, from what you&#8217;ve just said there, that you&#8217;ve always maybe been driven by growth, complexity, a difficult challenge.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:44] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Yeah, that&#8217;s the entrepreneur gene, I would say. There is something inside entrepreneurs that always pushes us to develop, to grow, to find for what&#8217;s next, all the time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:55] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay. So, sorry for the interruption. You were working with your friends and I&#8217;ll let you continue.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:59] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> When we could work on the same project, it was great. But at certain points they had projects of their own, because they were also freelancing. And I started my first experiments with hiring other freelancers that I didn&#8217;t know. Finding them through job ads, tried finding them through also freelance platforms like subcontractors. Tried finding them through recommendations. And that&#8217;s where my first real life entrepreneurial and managerial challenges came in.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Most of the managers go through all these steps. They find a guy that, he&#8217;s the right guy for the job. We start working, everything is fine for the first few days, and then he disappears, or he delivers something that is far from what was agreed, or he&#8217;s constantly late, or they try to cut corners. Developers can identify pretty easy when logic is mixed with templates, or things like that. Which is much faster to code, but then it doesn&#8217;t scale, and creates constant problems for ongoing development.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah, all those things started happening to me, and the first failures came when some of them disappeared completely, like two days before the deadline, without sharing the code with me. Things like that happened, and oftentimes I would say it&#8217;s just easier to stay freelancing on my own. If you want something done right, do it yourself. Yeah, this is kind of the belief that is common between many people, but I don&#8217;t find it to be true today.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:25:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I&#8217;m going to interrupt there just summarise, if that&#8217;s alright? So the journey begins with you freelancing. The freelancing then gets mixed up with friends and colleagues, and people that you know. Then the complexity of that, because you&#8217;ve got projects and you need more people, you have to begin finding people. And so at this point, problems start to occur because the people don&#8217;t do what you expect them to do. So maybe there&#8217;s a story in there about how you communicate with what are essentially complete strangers, you know, what&#8217;s the level of that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But also, you know, they&#8217;ve just got their own agendas, and they miss work, they cut corners, and what have you. And so all of a sudden, you want to grow this business, but you&#8217;re now, everything&#8217;s collapsing around you a little bit, because of unexpected problems that the first time around you wouldn&#8217;t anticipate. You&#8217;re not going to go into it thinking people are going to let me down, presumably. You&#8217;re going to go into it thinking, well, I&#8217;m going to hire somebody, they&#8217;ve got a good reputation, they&#8217;re going to deliver me quality code, and then life gets in the way, and all of these problems occur. Okay, right. Keep going, this is great.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:32] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Thank you for summarising. I didn&#8217;t plan it so much in advance, so I might be jumping from one thought to another. So yeah, this is the time in my journey where I realised that I am actually lacking some experience in large scale projects, in larger teams. I don&#8217;t know how the really big projects are developed.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And back then when we worked with friends, when I worked as a freelancer, most of those projects didn&#8217;t survive after 12 months initial period. Those were very early startups, and most of the time I felt like we are developing stuff for the trash can practically, because we are working hard on it, and then the project isn&#8217;t funded anymore, and just basically dies.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that&#8217;s why I decided to take a break in this entrepreneurial journey, and moved to a larger city, joined a large German company, a MarTech company, and stayed with them for three and a half years. It really helped me structure the thinking, and understand how project management, and the development process, and the continuous integration, many other things in large scale projects.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>How do all these things work? And this is probably the first time in my career when I encountered, real project managers. Before that it was more or less informal, unofficial, people that started their own startup were managing the project.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And in this company we had teams of five developers. Every team had a project manager. We were using a specific development process with sprints, with tasks assigned, with a way to test the tasks, staging environment, development environment, all of these. Many of those things we previously, we did intuitively. In this larger company, I had the opportunity to learn it from the inside, and it really helped me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:28:21] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So, I don&#8217;t know how to phrase this question. I&#8217;ll try my best. Did you begin working for this larger agency intentionally to learn? Or is it that you now look back and realise that you learned? Because I&#8217;m imagining, again, people listening to this, maybe they&#8217;re in the moment that you were, where there were lots of freelancers, and it was all a bit of a muddle. And they&#8217;re looking to fix that problem.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Your way around that was to go and work for three years. I mean, three years is a good long time, isn&#8217;t it? Where you would be surrounded by people who already had the structure. You would learn it by osmosis, it would be part of your daily work to figure all this stuff out, with the help of others.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, did you deliberately go knowing that you were going to do it for a short amount of time to learn the processes? Or is it just that after three years you thought, oh, look what I&#8217;ve learned?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:29:11] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> It was, I&#8217;d say a mix of both, but more so it was intentional. At one point I looked back and I like, okay, we&#8217;ve delivered 50 websites maybe, and two or three small platforms that never survived. Do I really have the experience and seniority, and the level of knowledge and understanding that I wanted to. And when I honestly admitted that I don&#8217;t, I realised that, okay, maybe I shouldn&#8217;t be rushing into entrepreneurship. Take a step back, join a company that had it figured out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And initially when I joined the company, I thought it was going to be only about maybe 4, 12, 18 months. But the company was so good, and people were so good. At one point after the first year, I didn&#8217;t even think about getting back to the entrepreneurial journey, because when you have everything figured out around you, even when you do have these entrepreneurial genetics, it&#8217;s nice to have the pay date on the first of every month, and you have predictability, and you have other people worrying about things. So that&#8217;s one of the reasons why I stayed for three years there and not for one year.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:30:16] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Can I ask, okay, after three years, why then change? Was it just the entrepreneur in you, who just couldn&#8217;t quite reconcile the deep desire that you had to do your own thing with your reality? You know, you&#8217;re turning up to work and getting a paycheck, and all of that. I&#8217;m guessing that&#8217;s more likely. You just evolved out of it and thought, I want that in my life again, I want to be in charge of things, figuring things out again.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:30:40] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> I think that in the essence, yes, it was that. Because at one point I started freelancing again in my own spare time. Practically, I moved to a larger city and I didn&#8217;t have friends, I didn&#8217;t have a girlfriend, I had all the time in the world. After a full-time job, I also had a few more hours where I could do something.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So at one point I started freelancing again, but I could do it on a different level. And this is when I started the pet project, which ended up being first PHP data tables, a PHP script for rendering tables. And then I wrapped it as WordPress plugin, and published the WordPress plugin.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It was still a pet project, but then when I started seeing people buying it, liking it, enjoying it, using it in different parts of the world, people started sending me requests for more features. I started receiving support requests.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For me, it was so inspiring, and I realised that maybe $100 earned through selling my own piece of software, are more dear to me than $1000 earned through working at a full-time job.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:31:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Oh that&#8217;s such an interesting sentence. That&#8217;s really interesting. Okay, alright. Sorry to interrupt. I just thought that was worth calling out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:31:53] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> At one point, I just couldn&#8217;t help but invested more and more time into my own thing, my own baby. When you see it&#8217;s growing, it&#8217;s a feeling you don&#8217;t get from anything else really. At one moment it started selling really well. It wasn&#8217;t still enough to become a substitute for a full-time job. People were using the plugin, and they wanted also to add features X, Y, Z, and they were ready to pay for it. And I started charging higher and higher hourly rates. I figured out, people are still happy to pay those higher hourly rates. And I just decided to take the risk, to quit my full-time job, and to start a company.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I was still relatively young, I was like 27, 28 back then. I decided that, what do I get to lose? Maybe I will lose one or two years. I can always get back to full-time job, some other company. And there is nothing like this experience. Yeah, it was a very interesting moment in my journey. And this is actually the next step.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:50] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I was just going to say though, you&#8217;re in a really different place, aren&#8217;t you? Because if you go back to your hiring freelancer moment, there were all the trip wires that you went through, and the things that you did, in air quotes, incorrectly. You are now armed with three years of knowledge of working at an agency. There&#8217;s a whole bunch of things that you will now not get wrong, because you&#8217;ve seen how to grow a business, what kind of processes need to be in place. And so, okay, let&#8217;s go, starting my own company.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:17] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Yeah, that was the next step. And this is when I needed, had to become project manager, the office manager, finding an office, changing bulbs, finding furniture, hiring manager, developer, all that. I had to divide my day in small shifts. For two hours I&#8217;m an office manager, for two hours I&#8217;m a product manager.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It was an interesting time, and I think I did it at the right moment, I was still full of energy. I mean, I&#8217;m still full of energy, but I don&#8217;t know if I would have the guts now to enter the same journey once again. I have family now, I need my own time. Back then I did have the luxury of waking up at whatever time I wake up, and then just work for 12, 14 hours, and then just go back to sleep. This was the whole life for the first year or two of my company in the beginning.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:34:04] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You just described it as an interesting time. You know, changing light bulbs, picking out furniture. Interesting is an interesting word. It&#8217;s kind of implies that there&#8217;s a little bit of frustration there maybe. Jobs that you probably don&#8217;t need or don&#8217;t wish to do, but need to be done. Basically, it&#8217;s got to be you, I guess. You know, the light bulb&#8217;s gone, okay, who&#8217;s going to change it? Let&#8217;s look around, oh me. The carpet, somebody spilled the coffee on the carpet, who is going to, oh me. That&#8217;s a big change in life, suddenly. I guess, yeah, interesting sort sums it up. Frustrating, but useful and necessary.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:34:38] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Yes, exactly as you described it. And this is something that happens with bootstrap founders. It&#8217;s not like you become a boss, and everybody starts running around you. For the first year or two, it&#8217;s the other way around. You have to round around everybody and everything, and make sure things don&#8217;t fall apart. Because when you start something new, it has a tendency to die initially, in the first year or two.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean, things just fall apart. Servers are falling, light bulbs are going out, the first developer you hire decides to change the job in two months, and you need to rehire, and to onboard, and to go through everything once again. So I think only after it was maybe 10 or 15 people working in the company, I could relax a little bit. Okay, there are people now who take care of different segments of the job.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But initially, especially as we were combining developing our own product, and working as an agency on clients, on software. It was an interesting time. It was frustrating. It was tough. It was a lot of stress, because you practically depend on every client. If one client decides to stop working with you, you immediately don&#8217;t have the funds to keep paying the salaries that you are already committed to.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So there is a lot of stress involved in the first years, but also a lot of inspiration. A lot of great emotions, because you see how things grow, and they grow really fast in the first year or two. Because growing from two people to ten people is X5 growth. These initial steps, it&#8217;s wow, amazing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Right now we would add seven or eight people. I wouldn&#8217;t even notice much of a difference, but back then it&#8217;s changing things completely. And yeah, so you are growing your baby, and getting to do things you&#8217;ve never done before.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Getting back to the project management side of things, initially I didn&#8217;t even think about hiring project managers, mostly because of the funding restrictions. And also mostly because, initially when we started doing agency work, we were outsourcing developers. We were outsourcing developers on hourly basis, or per seat basis. And I would say there was no chance, back then in 2013, 14 to sell project manager seats to a client.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I actually, for few years after that, it took maybe five or six years for the market, this kind of market outsourcing market, for clients to figure out the project managers are actually crucial to project success. But back then I had to do it all on my own. And when we had eight or ten developers, I realised that it&#8217;s physically impossible to do it like this anymore.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I had to be project manager on every project, including our own product, plus three or four client ongoing projects. I had to know exactly what happens, what piece of code was released, what we are planning to do. And I just realised, I am losing quality on all fronts.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:37:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Of all of the bits and the pieces that I read, that bit stuck out to me as a real moment for you. The realisation that, I need to hire people to shepherd the people. I can&#8217;t do everything myself, and I have to allow people to be in charge of bits of my business, and to manage those projects.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And maybe that is a difficult thing to let go of, because in so many ways, project management from a developer point of view probably looks like, well, that&#8217;s a strange role. What are they actually doing? They&#8217;re just going to meetings all day, and they have more meetings after the meetings. And yet it&#8217;s really essential, or at least that&#8217;s the conclusion I think you drew.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:38:14] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Yes, exactly. And I remember my own thoughts, my own perception of project managers, while I was still a full stack developer in a large company. And we would talk, as developers, we would talk between each other like, why do these guys get to evaluate our job? They know nothing about coding, they know nothing about elegance of the code, coding standards, they don&#8217;t contribute to the software, yet they are our bosses, and they rate our work, they try to push us to do more. This is really unfair, that was my own perception.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And to a certain extent, unfortunately, I must say, some less experienced managers can do that. They can push people too much, they can come across as bosses, which I think is unnecessary in the software world. You don&#8217;t need really a boss, like a manager to be a boss and to be above you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>When I started doing all of that myself, I quickly realised that like, there is no way around syncing all the stakeholders, but having meetings. And at some point you get to 10 meetings per day, or something like that, if you have many projects. This is something that&#8217;s unavoidable, and actually it&#8217;s the most efficient way to sync, and to coordinate things.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:39:26] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Would it be fair to say, now, that you are, you know, you&#8217;ve really removed yourself from the coding side of things, and you are basically project manager for the entire business. So maybe you are a project manager of project managers, which sounds strange to say. But you are managing, and you&#8217;ve totally moved away, and you&#8217;ve realised that this is now the bit of the business which you are best placed into.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:39:49] <strong>Alexander Gilmanov:</strong> Yes. I think the key for scaling is focus. Whenever the revenue allows, whenever project scale allows, I like to identify things that were shared, things that one person combined, maybe two projects or two different roles, and to hire people that would do just one thing with 100% focus.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I am now maybe even on the third level of abstraction, third layer as developer. Developers call this like abstraction layer. So I&#8217;m managers, above managers, above managers. And we do have different role names in the company, like product owners, product managers, team leads. We also try to, when possible, maybe separate people management from processes management, because different mindsets are needed for those.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s great when one person can combine both. Many people are great at that. Sometimes it&#8217;s better to give the processes management to person who really likes the admin stuff, and people management to someone who is an extrovert, and is just great with people naturally, without some tension. Because for me still, I&#8217;m very introverted. Dealing with people still comes with a certain tension for me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:41:03] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I&#8217;d like to say a big, thanks to Alexander for talking with me on the jukebox podcast today. Don&#8217;t forget that the conversation will continue next week, where we explore some of the practical steps of growing a business.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<p>On the podcast today we have <a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexander-gilmanov-tms/\">Alexander Gilmanov</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Alex comes to us today from Belgrade, Serbia. He’s a full-stack developer with a rich heritage of freelance and agency work. His company officially launched in 2014, and they’ve continued work with clients, as well as creating a range of WordPress plugins, and their own SaaS apps, mainly in the online booking space.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Slightly unusually for this podcast I decided to break the content up into two parts. You’ll hear the first part today and part two will be coming out in the next episode.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you’re a developer and are in the weeds of writing code, perhaps you’ve thought about a change of direction. This could be changing the place where you work, but it could also mean starting an agency and moving towards a more managerial role. This is what Alexander did, and this next podcast charts his journey. The highs and the lows, the epiphanies and the moments of regret.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We explore Alexander’s transition from hands-on coding to strategic management. He shares insights into his initial roles, where he juggled multiple tasks and managed client expectations as a freelancer. This foundation not only honed his technical skills but also prepared him for the complexities of leading a business.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We talk about how Alexander’s management style has evolved over the years. Starting out, he faced the typical challenges of delegation and supervising a growing team, trying to understand individual personalities and communication styles to create a functional working environment. His approach emphasises the need for breaking down large tasks into smaller, more achievable goals, a method that has proven instrumental in managing both projects and people effectively.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also discuss the critical role of autonomy in the workplace, particularly how Alexander has learned to trust and empower his employees based on their experience levels, leading to greater productivity and satisfaction for everyone. He reflects on the key lessons learned from the earlier phase of his career, where he underestimated the importance of project managers, and how this realisation led him to restructure his business operations to optimise efficiency and output.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It’s a fascinating conversation, and if you’ve wanted to start an agency but have concerns about what that might bring, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Useful links</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wpdatatables.com/\">wpDataTables</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wpamelia.com/\">Amelia booking plugin</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://trafft.com/\">Trafft</a></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 15 May 2024 15:37:11 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Nathan Wrigley\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:21;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:21:\"Matt: Sabbatical Wrap\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=114289\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:38:\"https://ma.tt/2024/05/sabbatical-wrap/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4436:\"<img width=\"604\" height=\"453\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/ma.tt/files/2024/05/IMG_6094-1024x768.jpg?resize=604%2C453&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-114293\" />\n\n\n\n<p>Today is my first day post-<a href=\"https://automattic.com/benefits/sabbatical/\">sabbatical</a>, getting back in the swing of things with <a href=\"https://automattic.com/\">Automattic</a>. <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/\">W.org</a>,  all the <a href=\"https://audrey.co/\">things</a>. What a unique experience! I found the lead up to the sabbatical and planning process to be infinitely valuable, the sabbatical itself to be interesting experentially, and I&#8217;m curious to see what the post-sabbatical effects are. I have that nervous excitement like it&#8217;s the first day of school, which I haven&#8217;t felt in years.<em> What should I wear? Who will sit with me at lunch?</em></p>\n\n\n\n<p>I could now <a href=\"https://ma.tt/2024/02/samattical/\">give a much better talk about the value of sabbaticals</a>, having finally done one myself vs observing the hundreds that have taken place at Automattic. Like having a kid, it&#8217;s something you can understand intellectually but the direct experience is profound in ways that are hard to articulate.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>There&#8217;s so much to catch up on and it&#8217;s kind of delightful to check in on progress of things after a few months rather than day-to-day like I normally do. If I had one bit of advice it would be to not get a big surgery  (I had a sinus one) or plan for other major health things during a sabbatical, that should be on a different track if you can help it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>At <a href=\"https://ma.tt/2024/02/samattical/\">the beginning</a> I allowed myself two goals around sailing and chess. Sailing I decided to postpone to take advantage of a peak opportunity in July, but chess has been a fun incorporation into my daily habits and also incredibly humbling playing with folks who have been at it longer. The thing I didn&#8217;t plan for that became actually really important to me was getting back to the saxophone, not even trying to perform but the ritual and zen of long tones and practice is incredibly grounding in a way I didn&#8217;t know I was missing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>A few bullet point highlights:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Rowed to Alcatraz.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Got Covid the 4th time.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Went to Super Bowl.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Spent time at my alma mata University of Houston.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Toured the modern cathedrals of datacenters.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Did a ton of health scans, blood tests, doctor meetings.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Got my DEXA body fat down to 17.9%.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Skied Big Sky and Yellowstone Club.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Went to friend&#8217;s 40ths and 50ths.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Got a major sinus surgery.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Hosted an <a href=\"https://ma.tt/files/2024/05/644-upload.jpeg\">epic eclipse party from a plane</a> with 100+ flash talks.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Studied <a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qigong\">Qigong</a> and yoga.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Spent time in Houston, San Francisco, Big Sky, Austin, Orlando, Tokyo, Taipei, Amsterdam, Paris, and Mallorca.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Cleaned up a ton of personal projects.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Read a ton.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Swam in the ocean.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Played saxophone at 40k feet.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Equine therapy.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>A lot of progress on renovation projects in Houston and San Francisco.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Hiked many places, walking in general more than normal.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Tweaked my back. :/</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Couple of podcasts and interviews, a few meetings.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Binged <a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Body_Problem_(TV_series)\">Three Body Problem</a>.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Did a lot of solo time and introspection.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>Also, there was actually a lot of Automattic stuff happening most notably the <a href=\"https://ma.tt/2024/04/beeper-texts/\">acquisition of Beeper</a>! I wasn&#8217;t able to unplug as much as I hoped, but I did definitely reverse my normal priorities. One thing I really missed was that I had very high hopes to see a lot of people, but a lot of stuff came up so outside of the events it was probably smaller social circle than I normally have.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It does make me think about apophatic theology or <a href=\"https://fs.blog/a-wonderfully-simple-heuristic-to-recgonize-charlatans/\">how Nassim Taleb talks about <em>via negativa</em></a>. Whatever you&#8217;ve been doing, it&#8217;s nice to try the opposite for a while, just to see what happens.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 15 May 2024 13:35:01 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:22;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:60:\"Akismet: What is CAPTCHA? How Do CAPTCHAs Work to Stop Spam?\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"http://akismet.com/?p=283920\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:41:\"https://akismet.com/blog/what-is-captcha/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28639:\"<p>Solving CAPTCHAs can seem like playing an endless game of “I Spy”. Everyone who’s tried to fill out a form on a website knows the feeling of being deemed a robot by these digital bouncers.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Since the early 2000s, CAPTCHAs have been asking us to prove our humanity by identifying squiggly letters, solving random puzzles, and identifying all manner of real-world items, from bicycles to traffic lights.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>They’re a big deal on the web. <a href=\"https://trends.builtwith.com/widgets/captcha\">BuiltWith found</a> a CAPTCHA on at least one third of the top one million active websites. 90% of those were using Google’s ReCAPTCHA service.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<p>In this article, we’ll look at what CAPTCHAs are and some of the different versions available. We&#8217;ll review a brief history of CAPTCHAs, explore how they work, and consider whether CAPTCHAs really help sites control spam and bots. Then, we’ll see how CAPTCHAs compare to services like Akismet, which keeps spam and bots at bay without requiring users to decipher twisted texts or grainy images.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<span id=\"more-283920\"></span>\n\n\n\n<h2 id=\"what-are-captchas-how-do-they-work \" class=\"wp-block-heading\">What are CAPTCHAs? How do they work?&nbsp;</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>CAPTCHAs are used to distinguish between humans and bots. It stands for “Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart”. What’s a Turing test?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The idea of using Turing tests to deal with spam was developed in the late 1990s and was <a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAPTCHA\">first used commercially</a> by idrive.com and then-fledgling company PayPal. The term was officially named by Luis von Ahn and his colleagues at Carnegie Mellon University in 2003, though other researchers mentioned it in published papers <a href=\"https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24701475.2020.1831197\">as early as 2001</a>.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>CAPTCHAs are based on the idea that some simple human tasks are quite difficult for computers to do, like recognizing distorted text, images, and even audio. Most CAPTCHAs are two-step tests:&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><strong>The website generates some random string of characters or images and embeds them in a webpage</strong>. The text and images are usually distorted to make them harder for optical character recognition (OCR) software to read. Images are usually categorized by theme, like animal, vehicle, or streetlights.&nbsp;</li>\n\n<li><strong>The website asks the user to either enter the right characters or select the images according to some criteria</strong>,<strong> like “click on all images that contain a streetlight”</strong>. If the user’s response matches the answer, they pass the test.&nbsp;</li></ol>\n\n\n\n<p>CAPTCHAs are used to stop bots from spamming, abusing, and attacking websites. Bots are programs that can do things repetitively online, like create a new account, enter a new comment, scrape (steal) content, or even gather email addresses.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<p>Businesses sometimes rely on CAPTCHAs to filter out bots from real human interactions to save administrative time and performance bandwidth. Keeping spam at bay can also contribute to a safer environment for both visitors and the assets of the business&nbsp;itself.</p>\n\n\n<h2 id=\"the-history-of-captcha  \" class=\"wp-block-heading\">The history of CAPTCHA&nbsp;&nbsp;</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>There’s a bit of controversy around the history of CAPTCHAs in the U.S. This is mostly because researchers worked on the idea of using Turing tests to handle spam and abusive bots years before any patents were filed, research papers were published, or CAPTCHA became a common term.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<h3 id=\"the-creation-of captcha\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">The creation of&nbsp;CAPTCHA</h3>\n\n<p>They were first introduced on websites in the early 2000s, but the concept of CAPTCHAs was <a href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/19/magazine/who-made-that-captcha.html\">born in 1996</a>, when Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) created a site for opinion polls and instead was inundated with votes from&nbsp;spambots.</p>\n\n<p>To combat this unexpected issue, they tried to use a distorted U.S. flag image, and asked users to click on it to verify they were humans. It worked at first, but over time, the bots outsmarted the&nbsp;test.</p>\n\n\n<p>DEC worked with other scientists to turn that idea into a reverse Turing test — something that was easy for humans, but hard for machines. They eventually defeated the bots (for a little while, anyway) by using distorted characters on the screen.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<p>In 1997, search engine AltaVista <a href=\"https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24701475.2020.1831197\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">had a similar issue</a> with bots overwhelming their submission form to add new websites to their library. The AltaVista team developed an automated system to generate an image of printed text randomly, which was distorted enough that optical character recognition software couldn’t read it.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<p>They were victorious against the bots, with their system reducing the number of spam URLs by 95% within that first year. It also became the first time an automated system was known to be able to tell humans from machines.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What&#8217;s a Turing&nbsp;test?</h4>\n\n\n<p>The Turing test is named after Alan Turing, a British mathematician who wanted to be able to evaluate a machine’s ability to act intelligently (a precursor to our understanding of artificial intelligence).&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Turing’s test is a way to see if a computer can act like a human. The tester (human) asks questions to both a computer and another human without knowing who is giving each response.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If the tester can’t tell the difference between the two, the machine is deemed to have passed the test.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>CAPTCHAs rely on the idea of a reverse Turing test, where the machine tries to tell the difference between another machine (or bot) and a human.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<h3 id=\"how-captcha-got-its name\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">How CAPTCHA got its&nbsp;name</h3>\n\n\n<p>Engineer and researcher Luis von Ahn and his team at Carnegie Mellon University worked on the idea of using a Turing test to defeat the bots by expanding on DEC’s and AltaVista’s work. They distorted random letters and numbers using software, then embedded it in the webpage, asking users if they were human by completing the simple test. They coined the term “CAPTCHA”, which stood for “Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart”.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<h3 id=\"the-evolution-of captcha\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">The evolution of&nbsp;CAPTCHA</h3>\n\n\n<p>CAPTCHAs continued to evolve, from using just text, to images, to a combination of the two, and then even multiple images and text. Engineers and researchers at universities and companies used different types of CAPTCHA tests with varying levels of effectiveness.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The earliest version of CAPTCHA used distorted text, a combination of text and numbers, in tests. At the time, this was a big deal because it was easy for humans to figure out, but automated bots encountered significant difficulty.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In 2009, Google bought the CAPTCHA technology and created reCAPTCHA. reCAPTCHA was groundbreaking for a couple of reasons — it used new ways of testing people’s humanity, and it turned those tests into productive contributions to larger projects (essentially crowdsourcing work through millions of tiny tests).&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<h3 id=\"the-rise-of recaptcha\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">The rise of&nbsp;reCAPTCHA</h3>\n\n\n<p>reCAPTCHA pushed the boundaries of automated testing and offered new options to website owners who wanted a more user-friendly process for visitors to prove their humanity. It also added auditory CAPTCHA options to increase accessibility.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<p>More controversially, Google used reCAPTCHA as part of its digitization&nbsp;project.</p>\n\n\n<p>They created a two-part CAPTCHA. The first part was like the original, but the second part used letters or whole words from text the machine was translating from old books and newspapers.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"710\" height=\"300\" src=\"https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image.png\" alt=\"reCAPTCHA example\" class=\"wp-image-283921\" />\n\n\n\n<p>If a user passed the first part — proving their humanity —&nbsp;it also accepted their second contribution (the translation) as accurate.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In this way, Google outsourced the digitization of old books and newspapers with minimal labor costs.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<p>As with anything on the internet, spammers and other bad actors eventually found ways to counter CAPTCHAs and other security features. With the use of increasingly smarter artificial intelligence (AI) options, bots were eventually able to figure out most CAPTCHAs with <a href=\"https://developers.google.com/search/blog/2014/12/are-you-robot-introducing-no-captcha\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">99.8% accuracy</a>, according to Google. In 2014, they announced the now infamous (and sometimes dreaded), “Are you a human?” checkbox as part of their reCAPTCHA improvements.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<img width=\"656\" height=\"220\" src=\"https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-1.png\" alt=\"\" />\n\n\n<p>reCAPTCHA rose to the challenge and over the next several years grew in popularity among websites that used CAPTCHAs. In fact, of sites that use some sort of CAPTCHA, reCAPTCHA is used <a href=\"https://trends.builtwith.com/widgets/captcha\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">90% of the&nbsp;time</a>.</p>\n\n<h2 id=\"types-of recaptcha\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Types of&nbsp;reCAPTCHA</h2>\n\n<p>Today, websites can choose from two main versions of reCAPTCHA (v1 support was dropped in&nbsp;2018).</p>\n\n\n<img width=\"784\" height=\"278\" src=\"https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-2.png\" alt=\"reCAPTCHA options\" class=\"wp-image-283924\" />\n\n\n\n<h3 id=\"recaptcha-v2 \" class=\"wp-block-heading\">reCAPTCHA v2&nbsp;</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>This version of reCAPTCHA has two primary options, one that includes the “I’m not a robot” checkbox and another with an invisible reCAPTCHA badge.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><strong>reCAPTCHA v2 with the “I’m not a robot” checkbox</strong>. This version analyzes the user’s behavior on a page and makes an automated determination to tell if they’re a human. If the user passes, it will include the “I’m not a robot” checkbox alone.&nbsp;</li></ul>\n\n\n\n<p>If the user’s behavior is suspicious —&nbsp;indicating they may be a bot — they’ll need to complete a test (usually an image or puzzle challenge) before being given a chance to click to confirm they are, in fact, human.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><strong>reCAPTCHA v2 with the invisible reCAPTCHA badge</strong>. This version uses a JavaScript API call to look at combined behavior for a user to determine if they’re human. If they pass, based on the algorithm, they are passed silently. Only users who fail will receive a challenge.&nbsp;</li></ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 id=\"recaptcha-v3 \" class=\"wp-block-heading\">reCAPTCHA v3&nbsp;</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>This version is the newest and most subtle option for website owners. With it, visitors will rarely even know their humanity is being judged in the background. It uses a JavaScript API (like v2) but is more advanced. It scores users based on different actions they make in the browser or on the page.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Based on their score, users are silently approved (or failed with no regress, causing confusion). This version allows developers to customize the integration to meet their needs.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 id=\"different-types-of-captcha-beyond-recaptcha \" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Different types of CAPTCHA (beyond reCAPTCHA)&nbsp;</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Besides reCAPTCHA, there are other types of CAPTCHAs that websites harness to verify human users and prevent automated bots from abusing their services. Here are some of the most common ones:&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 id=\"image-based-captcha\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Image-based CAPTCHA</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>These CAPTCHAs require users to find and select images that match a given category or query. For example, people may be asked to click on all the pictures that contain cars or animals.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"888\" height=\"998\" src=\"https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-3.png\" alt=\"CAPTCHA asking users to identify red spheres\" class=\"wp-image-283925\" />\n\n\n<p>These CAPTCHAs can be more user&#8209;friendly and accessible than text&#8209;based ones, but they may also pose challenges for visually impaired users. Moreover, image recognition algorithms can <a href=\"https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3524010.3539498\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">sometimes defeat these CAPTCHAs</a> by using machine learning techniques&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<h3 id=\"logic-based-captcha\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Logic-based CAPTCHA</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>These CAPTCHAs test users’ logical reasoning by asking them to solve simple puzzles or answer questions. For example, visitors may be asked to solve math problems, complete word games, or “find the odd one out”. These CAPTCHAs can be more engaging and fun than other types, but they may also exclude users with cognitive differences or who are not familiar with the language or culture of the website’s primary audience.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 id=\"audio-based-captcha\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Audio-based CAPTCHA</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>These CAPTCHAs serve an audio clip that has a series of numbers or letters that users need to type in. These CAPTCHAs are designed to accommodate those who have difficulty seeing or interpreting text, but they may also be hard to hear or understand for users in noisy environments or who have hearing impairments. So, these audio CAPTCHA tests can cause more accessibility issues than they solve.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 id=\"how-do-captchas-work-to-stop-spam \" class=\"wp-block-heading\">How do CAPTCHAs work to stop spam?&nbsp;</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>The whole purpose of CAPTCHAs is to root out automated programs or malicious bots so that they can’t spam or abuse websites and online services. For example, CAPTCHAs can prevent bots from creating fake accounts, sending unwanted messages, posting malicious links, filling out forms, or accessing and stealing restricted content.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<p>So, while it can be annoying, requiring users to prove their humanity helps reduce the amount of spam and increase the performance of online platforms and the security of everyone&nbsp;involved.</p>\n\n\n<p>CAPTCHAs rely on the assumption that human and machine intelligence have different capabilities and limitations. For instance, humans recognize different patterns than machines. Most humans can easily identify objects, faces, emotions, or voices in noisy or distorted inputs. On the other hand, machines can perform calculations, store information, and process data faster (and usually more accurately) than humans.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, CAPTCHAs are not infallible. Remember, Google’s own research showed that AI could solve CAPTCHAs a vast majority of the time.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 id=\"the-inaccessibility-of-captchas \" class=\"wp-block-heading\">The inaccessibility of CAPTCHAs&nbsp;</h2>\n\n\n<p>CAPTCHAs are designed to prevent automated bots from accessing websites or services that require human verification. Unfortunately, they often prove inaccessible for humans. Who hasn’t selected all the traffic lights in each image only to be told they were&nbsp;wrong?</p>\n\n\n<p>They also pose a significant barrier for those with different abilities, who may not be able to solve them due to visual, auditory, cognitive, or motor impairments.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>CAPTCHAs are often inaccessible, even to real human users. For example:&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>Users with visual impairments may not be able to see or read the distorted text or images that are sometimes used in CAPTCHAs.&nbsp;</li>\n\n<li>Those with color blindness may not be able to differentiate the foreground and background colors.&nbsp;</li>\n\n<li>People with dyslexia or other learning disabilities may not be able to decipher the scrambled letters or words.&nbsp;</li>\n\n<li>Visitors with hearing impairments may not be able to interpret the audio&#8209;based CAPTCHAs.&nbsp;</li>\n\n<li>Individuals with motor impairments may not be able to use a mouse or keyboard to select or type the correct answer.&nbsp;</li>\n\n<li>Users with low bandwidth or slow internet connection may not be able to load the CAPTCHA in time or at all.&nbsp;</li>\n\n<li>People who use screen readers or other alternative communication devices might not pass automatic CAPTCHAs since their activity online differs significantly from other users. E.G. they might use the tab key to skip to different areas on the page, ignore some elements entirely, or have the content read to them, which affects how they scroll through the web&nbsp;page.</li></ul>\n\n\n\n<p>These challenges can result in frustration, fatigue, and exclusion for users with disabilities. This severe impact on accessibility directly works against many organizations’ stated goals of inclusion. And from a purely business standpoint, it reduces the potential customer base for an organization&#8217;s product or service.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 id=\"other-limitations-of-captchas \" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Other limitations of CAPTCHAs&nbsp;</h2>\n\n\n\n<h3 id=\"an-inconvenient-user-experience \" class=\"wp-block-heading\">An inconvenient user experience&nbsp;</h3>\n\n\n<p>CAPTCHAs interrupt user interaction and force visitors to perform tasks that aren’t related to their goals. This can annoy and frustrate people, especially if the CAPTCHAs are hard to solve, take too long, or appear repeatedly. CAPTCHAs can be confusing or unclear for users who are not familiar with the language or the content of the&nbsp;challenges.</p>\n\n<h3 id=\"inadequate-spam prevention\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Inadequate spam&nbsp;prevention</h3>\n\n\n<p>The whole point of using CAPTCHAs is to stop malicious bot activity. But research shows that CAPTCHAs don’t always work. And even when they do, they come with side effects businesses don’t like.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>CAPTCHAs can be defeated by sophisticated bots that use computer vision, machine learning, or artificial intelligence to crack the challenges. Some newer AI tools, like GPT-v4, have even been used to <a href=\"https://cheq.ai/blog/testing-ai-gpt-4v-against-captcha/\">solve CAPTCHA challenges</a>.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>reCAPTCHA v2, which relies on behavioral analysis and risk scores, can be fooled by bots that mimic human actions and mouse movements. Additionally, there are online services that offer to solve CAPTCHAs for a fee, either by using <a href=\"https://www.zenrows.com/blog/bypass-captcha-web-scraping\">automated software</a> or by employing low-paid human workers. These services can be used by spammers, hackers, or malicious actors to bypass CAPTCHAs and access restricted websites or resources.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 id=\"poor-conversion-rates-and-user-engagement \" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Poor conversion rates and user engagement&nbsp;</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>CAPTCHAs can negatively impact the functionality and profitability of websites, especially when it comes to user registration, online transactions, or user-generated content. CAPTCHAs add a step, creating friction in the user journey. As a result, this can reduce the number of people who sign up, purchase, or comment.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Using CAPTCHAs not only reduces spam, but conversion rates, customer loyalty, and revenue, too.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<p>A <a href=\"https://web.stanford.edu/~jurafsky/burszstein_2010_captcha.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Stanford study</a> found that conversions can drop by up to 40% with a CAPTCHA challenge.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<p>So, if CAPTCHAs aren’t the best option, what is?&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<h2 id=\"akismet-a-superior-alternative-to-captcha technology\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Akismet: a superior alternative to CAPTCHA&nbsp;technology</h2>\n\n\n<p>CAPTCHAs aren’t always effective at stopping bots — their primary job — and negatively impact engagement and conversions from real humans. So, are there other options?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Akismet is a simple-to-implement solution to handle not only spam comments, but spam form submissions, and even spam user registrations.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Since its launch in 2005, Akismet has blocked over 500 billion pieces of spam. It uses machine learning technology that has a 99.99% accuracy rate in identifying spam. It’s also constantly learning from the more than one hundred million sites that use its service.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"1600\" height=\"637\" src=\"https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-4.png\" alt=\"Akismet homepage\" class=\"wp-image-283926\" />\n\n\n\n<h3 id=\"how-akismet-works \" class=\"wp-block-heading\">How Akismet works&nbsp;</h3>\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://akismet.com/features/\">Akismet works behind the scenes</a>, without requiring any input or action from the user. It automatically filters out spam and bot comments, trackbacks, pingbacks, contact form submissions, and other unwanted&nbsp;content.</p>\n\n<p>It does all of this by comparing each submission to its massive database of known spam patterns and behaviors, continuously being refined by a network of over 100 million&nbsp;sites.</p>\n\n\n<p>These anti-spam activities happen on the cloud — meaning it doesn’t impact your site’s performance.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Akismet is popular for sites using WordPress and works with numerous plugins like Jetpack, Contact Form 7, Gravity Forms, and WooCommerce.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<p>However, Akismet has an incredibly&#8209;flexible API that also allows it to be integrated into any&nbsp;application</p>\n\n\n<p><strong>Akismet simply works.</strong> And even if the algorithm <em>does </em>make a mistake (it’s bound to happen 0.01% of the time) and accidentally flags a comment or contact form message as spam, website administrators can see it in the dashboard and immediately address the problem. So, it learns from any mistakes it makes.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<p>Plus, if your business needs a custom solution, Akismet’s <a href=\"https://akismet.com/enterprise/\">enterprise team</a> stands ready to&nbsp;help.</p>\n\n\n<img width=\"1600\" height=\"746\" src=\"https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-5.png\" alt=\"Akimet page with text \" />\n\n\n<h3 id=\"comparing-akismet-and captcha\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Comparing Akismet and&nbsp;CAPTCHA</h3>\n\n\n<p>While Akismet and CAPTCHAs work very differently, it’s worth comparing a few important features:&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>CAPTCHAs force visitors to prove they aren’t human, while Akismet works behind the scenes, requiring no input or action from the user.&nbsp;</li>\n\n<li>CAPTCHAs require people to complete a challenge, like identifying images or typing distorted text. Akismet doesn’t interrupt or annoy users with any extra steps.&nbsp;</li></ul>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>CAPTCHAs can reduce conversion rates and user satisfaction, as well as exclude visitors with disabilities or low bandwidth. Akismet doesn’t affect the accessibility or usability of the site.&nbsp;</li>\n\n<li>CAPTCHAs often make mistakes that website owners never even know about. Akismet, on the other hand, has a dashboard on the backend of the website where any mistakes can be seen and corrected. And it learns from any mistakes it makes.&nbsp;</li></ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 id=\"captcha-or-akismet-â-the-choice-is-clear \" class=\"wp-block-heading\">CAPTCHA or Akismet — the choice is clear&nbsp;</h2>\n\n\n<p>You definitely need something to protect your site from spam. So, should you opt for CAPTCHAs’ proof of humanity tests or Akismet’s behind&#8209;the&#8209;scenes low&#8209;friction&nbsp;solution?</p>\n\n\n<p>CAPTCHAs are no longer the best way to protect your site from spam and bots. They annoy, exclude, and discourage visitors, making them less likely to engage with your content or services.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But Akismet stops many different kinds of spam with near perfect accuracy! And it doesn’t make users jump through hoops. The result is better engagement, higher conversion rates, and a healthier business and community.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://akismet.com/pricing/\">Get started with Akismet</a>.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 id=\"frequently-asked-questions \" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Frequently asked questions&nbsp;</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Want to know more about CAPTCHAs? We’ve got answers below.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 id=\"what-does-captcha-stand-for \" class=\"wp-block-heading\">What does CAPTCHA stand for?&nbsp;</h3>\n\n\n<p>CAPTCHA stands for “Completely Automated Public Turing Test to Tell Humans and Robots&nbsp;Apart.”</p>\n\n\n<h3 id=\"who-invented-captcha \" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Who invented CAPTCHA?&nbsp;</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Engineer and researcher Luis von Ahn and his team at Carnegie Mellon University are largely credited with advancing and naming CAPTCHA as we know it today. However, Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) and AltaVista used more primitive versions in the years leading up to Luis Von Ahn’s work.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<h3 id=\"what-are-the-most-common-use-cases-for captcha\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">What are the most common use cases for&nbsp;CAPTCHA?</h3>\n\n\n<p>CAPTCHAs were most commonly used to stop automated bots from performing damaging functions, like flooding comments sections of websites with irrelevant or dangerous content.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n<h3 id=\"what-are-the-main-advantages-of captcha\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">What are the main advantages of&nbsp;CAPTCHA?</h3>\n\n<p>There are some clear advantages of CAPTCHA. It can be a somewhat effective way to stop spam comments on your site, comes from a trusted source (it’s a Google service), and is a completely free&nbsp;solution.</p>\n\n<h3 id=\"what-are-the-main-drawbacks-of captcha\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">What are the main drawbacks of&nbsp;CAPTCHA?</h3>\n\n<p>CAPTCHAs are now too simple to detect most bots, as computers have learned to accurately solve the challenges they present. They also disrupt the user experience — causing humans to abandon legitimate efforts. Finally, they add weight to sites, potentially impacting&nbsp;performance.</p>\n\n<h3 id=\"what-is-the-best-alternative-to-captcha-for-spam prevention\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">What is the best alternative to CAPTCHA for spam&nbsp;prevention?</h3>\n\n<p>Akismet is, by far, the best alternative to CAPTCHA. Unlike CAPTCHA, it doesn’t require website visitors to take any action on your site to prove their humanity. This makes for an enhanced user experience, better accessibility, and higher conversion rates. At the same time, it’s incredibly accurate, with a 99.99% accuracy&nbsp;rate.</p>\n\n<h3 id=\"how-many-websites-use-akismet-for-spam prevention\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">How many websites use Akismet for spam&nbsp;prevention?</h3>\n\n<p>Over 100 million websites, across platforms like WordPress, Drupal, phpBB3, and Joomla, use Akismet to stop all kinds of spam without detracting from the user&nbsp;experience.</p>\n\n<h3 id=\"are-there-any-case-studies-of-companies-that-use akismet\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Are there any case studies of companies that use&nbsp;Akismet?</h3>\n\n<p>Yes, absolutely! If you&#8217;re interested in reading more, find out how <a href=\"https://akismet.com/blog/convertkit-customerstory/\">ConvertKit</a> uses Akismet to protect the creator economy from spam. You can also read about how <a href=\"https://akismet.com/blog/saying-no-to-spam-on-smitten-kitchens-popular-food-site/\">Smitten Kitchen</a> protects their popular blog using&nbsp;Akismet.</p>\n\n\n<img width=\"1446\" height=\"1052\" src=\"https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-6.png\" alt=\"comment section on a food blog\" class=\"wp-image-283928\" />\n\n\n<h3 id=\"where-can-i-learn-more-about akismet\" class=\"wp-block-heading\">Where can I learn more about&nbsp;Akismet?</h3>\n\n\n<p>You’ll find a full list of <a href=\"https://akismet.com/features/\">Akismet features on their site</a>. Most website owners can choose a plan and get started from the <a href=\"https://akismet.com/pricing/\">pricing page</a>. Representatives for enterprise organizations can <a href=\"https://akismet.com/enterprise/\">learn more about advanced solutions here</a>.&nbsp;</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 15 May 2024 13:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:11:\"Jen Swisher\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:23;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:77:\"Do The Woo Community: Meet New Hosts Marcel and Mike Talking WooCommerce HPOS\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=83529\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:76:\"https://dothewoo.io/meet-new-hosts-marcel-and-mike-talking-woocommerce-hpos/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:176:\"Marcel and Mike discuss their recent work with WooCommerce\'s High-Performance Order Storage (HPOS) updates, including challenges with plugin compatibility and database cleanup.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 15 May 2024 10:58:04 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:24;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:19:\"Matt: Karaoke Hacks\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=114208\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:36:\"https://ma.tt/2024/05/karaoke-hacks/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1631:\"<p>You can&#8217;t sing. I can&#8217;t sing. But we both should sing, from the depths of our bellies because it&#8217;s good for your soul. We don&#8217;t sing enough in modern society! Hence, my love of karaoke.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Live band karaoke is the best, which I&#8217;ve done everywhere from the basement of Hill Country BBQ in New York to someplace random in Davao after a WordCamp, but when you don&#8217;t have a four piece band there are electronic substitutes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The first hack to do karaoke anywhere, which I&#8217;m surprised more people don&#8217;t know, is just search YouTube for [the song you&#8217;re looking for] + karaoke. You get something <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvjWl7lvrnk\">like this Fly Me To The Moon</a>. Every modern TV has YouTube and you&#8217;ll be singing along with the TV in no time. I went down a long rabbit hole of <a href=\"https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GR69D9L/?tag=photomatt08-20\">wireless mics</a>, <a href=\"https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004OA6JU2/?tag=photomatt08-20\">auto-tuners</a>, speakers, etc, and I have emerged back concluding that a <a href=\"https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0B8HZK281/?tag=photomatt08-20\">USB-C wireless speaker microphone</a> gives a lot of the benefits without as much hassle.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The next level up, and worth the subscription, is that the <a href=\"https://www.karafun.com/\">Karafun apps are actually pretty good</a>. You can even run it on MacOS with an HDMI cable to the TV and they have a QR code and queuing system. Pretty slick, pretty fun, <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vhFnTjia_I\">Sweet Caroline</a>.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 15 May 2024 03:28:28 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:25;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:49:\"BuddyPress: BuddyPress 12.5.0 Maintenance Release\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:32:\"https://buddypress.org/?p=334031\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:69:\"https://buddypress.org/2024/05/buddypress-12-5-0-maintenance-release/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1718:\"<p>Immediately available is <a href=\"https://downloads.wordpress.org/plugin/buddypress.12.5.0.zip\">BuddyPress 12.5.0</a>. This maintenance release fixes <strong>8</strong> bugs. We are releasing this new version pretty soon after our <a href=\"https://buddypress.org/2024/05/buddypress-12-4-1-security-release/\">latest security release</a> in order to fix 5 regressions introduced by it. Thanks in advance for your understanding.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For details on all changes, please read the <a href=\"https://codex.buddypress.org/releases/version-12-5-0/\">12.5.0 release notes</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Update to BuddyPress 12.5.0 today in your WordPress Dashboard, or by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/buddypress/\">downloading it from the WordPress.org plugin repository</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-spacer\"></div>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Many thanks to 12.5.0 contributors <span class=\"dashicons dashicons-heart\"></span></h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/yagniksangani\"><a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/respawnsive/\">respawnsive</a></a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/johnjamesjacoby\"><a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/gingerbooch/\">gingerbooch</a></a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/boonebgorges\">boonebgorges</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/r-a-y\">r-a-y</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/vapvarun\"><a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/johndawson155\">johndawson155</a></a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/testovac\"><a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/poojasahgal\">poojasahgal</a></a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/emaralive\">emaralive</a> &amp; <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/imath/\">imath</a>.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 14 May 2024 19:48:22 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:12:\"Mathieu Viet\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:26;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:93:\"WordPress.org blog: WP Briefing: Episode 79: Why Start a WordPress Media Corps (and Why Now?)\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:53:\"https://wordpress.org/news/?post_type=podcast&p=17253\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:92:\"https://wordpress.org/news/2024/05/episode-79-why-start-a-wordpress-media-corps-and-why-now/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:11962:\"<p>There’s a new initiative in the WordPress community: the WordPress Media Corps. In today’s episode of the WordPress Briefing, you’ll find out how it came to be, first as a nugget of an idea during the pandemic and now as an active experiment. Learn how this shift in focus values the ongoing impact, and often invisible effort, of independent WordPress media—and seeks to help them more easily deliver engaging, high-quality WordPress content to their audiences.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Credits</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Host:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/chanthaboune/\">Josepha Haden Chomphosy</a><br />Editor:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/dustinhartzler/\">Dustin Hartzler</a><br />Logo:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/javiarce/\">Javier Arce</a><br />Production:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/bjmcsherry/\">Brett McSherry</a><br />Song: Fearless First by Kevin MacLeod</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Show Notes</h2>\n\n\n\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/marketing/2024/03/20/making-a-wordpress-media-corps/\">Making a WordPress Media Corps</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/marketing/2024/04/29/wordpress-media-corps-next-steps/\">WordPress Media Corps Next Steps</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/media-corps/2024/05/03/wordpress-media-corps-initial-roadmap/\">WordPress Media Corps Initial Roadmap</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://wordpress.slack.com/archives/C0723V9S7CY\">#media-corps</a>&nbsp;Slack channel</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Small List of Big Things</strong>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/04/23/wordpress-6-6-call-for-volunteers-update/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">WordPress 6.6 call for volunteers update</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/news/2024/05/wordpress-6-5-3-maintenance-release/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">WordPress 6.5.3 maintenance release</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/openverse/2024/04/16/introducing-collection-views-for-tags-creators-and-sources/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Openverse Introduces Collection views for Tags, Creators, and Sources</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://europe.wordcamp.org/2024/schedule/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">WordCamp Europe 2024 Schedule Released</a></li>\n</ul>\n</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Have a question you&#8217;d like answered? Submit them to&nbsp;<a href=\"mailto:wpbriefing@WordPress.org\">WPBriefing@WordPress.org</a>.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript</h2>\n\n\n\n<span id=\"more-17253\"></span>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:00:00]&nbsp;<strong>Josepha:</strong>&nbsp;Hello, everyone, and welcome to the WordPress Briefing, the podcast where you can catch quick explanations of the ideas behind the WordPress open source project, some insight into the community that supports it, and get a small list of big things coming up in the next two weeks.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;m your host, Josepha Haden Chomphosy. Here we go!&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:00:28] (Intro Music)&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:00:39] <strong>Josepha:</strong> If you&#8217;ve been keeping an eye on the WordPress marketing space for the past few months, today&#8217;s topic will be no surprise to you. Today, we&#8217;re talking about the WordPress Media Corps. It&#8217;s a bit of a controversial topic; there&#8217;s no point denying that, so today, I want to take a little journey through its history.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The WordPress Media Corps is an idea that goes back probably four, maybe five years ago. I don&#8217;t know what year it is—four years, five, four, or five years ago. It was the height of our COVID isolation. So I was spending a lot of time with our WordPress media folks, people who hosted podcasts, who gathered weekly roundups, and who were writing these nuanced and thoughtful newsletters.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:01:19] <strong>Josepha:</strong> And during the prep phases for these, I was witnessing all the work that goes into them, researching questions and topics, marketing both before and after any appearance, and consistently engaging with the audiences they had grown over time. Over the course of the year, I wound up in two or three different conversations with these hosts about how this does or doesn&#8217;t fit in the WordPress project as a way to contribute.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, invisible contributions are a persistent concern for any open source project and is one of the problems I am often most desperate to solve. As with so many long-standing problems, if the solution were easy, it wouldn&#8217;t still be a problem. And that&#8217;s the case here as well. I&#8217;ve got a quick side note on why this is a hard problem to solve at the end of the episode. It&#8217;s relevant to the overall discussion, but not if you&#8217;re only here to learn about how we arrived at the Media Corps. So, choose your own adventure!&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:02:16] <strong>Josepha:</strong> So, during one of those discussions, Allie Nimmons reminded me that we have always relied on third-party supporters to share information about WordPress. It was a smaller group than we have now, much less variety in the format, but they didn&#8217;t have contribution acknowledgments either, right?&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And she was right. They were included in something called the WP Planet. And I remember that I said to her what I wouldn&#8217;t give to be able to acknowledge the value that WordPress media folks bring to our ecosystem. These folks who have more flexibility than us can be a little more, more nimble who are canonical power users of WordPress, sharing not only what they are excited about now and in the near future but also the things that they had to learn in order to get the most out of the features and the software.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:07] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Like that&#8217;s practically a gold standard of the people that we want to have talking about us.&nbsp; And, for folks who&#8217;ve worked with Allie, you probably can predict what&#8217;s next. You know she&#8217;s not afraid to call it like she sees it, and she called me on my excessive dreaming. She asked me what actually was stopping me from getting that done. I don&#8217;t recall if I had an answer for her at the time. I, I probably didn&#8217;t, but ultimately, I think the answer was, most likely, that I was afraid to try. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>So you might be asking yourself, what has changed my mind since then? What has changed since 2020, when I was maybe too scared to get this done? Why does now feel like the right time compared to when I was first thinking through it? Well, for starters, when we look at then, we look at the context of then; it was my second year leading us. It was 2020, the year of COVID. And I was desperately trying to roll out a disaster recovery plan, incomplete though it was.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:06] <strong>Josepha:</strong> I wasn&#8217;t sure how much more disruption we as a community could stand, so I didn&#8217;t want to take any more risks than I had to. Which brings us to today. One of my big obstacles to tackle this year is our plateauing growth. I said it right there in my big-picture post for 2024. Re-engaging those gold standard users who are talking about us while making it clear that their contributions add to the success of the project seems like a high-impact opportunity to me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We&#8217;ve kicked off our initial experiment for the Media Corps. As with many high-impact projects, there&#8217;s also a high potential for risk, so I&#8217;m trying to get a clear indication of success as early as possible. Because of that, the experiment is time-limited and has pretty strict guidelines up front. It&#8217;s also being paired with a pause on the current work with the marketing team, just so that we can focus as much attention to get that signal sooner rather than later.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:01] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Not everyone agrees with this plan, which is to be expected. There are so many seasoned marketing professionals in WordPress, myself included, and I mean, our software is a primary tool in so many marketing tool belts. It probably would be odd if we didn&#8217;t have any marketers around. So there you have it, a brief explanation of how we got to today&#8217;s Media Corps experiment.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Quick side note on why it&#8217;s a hard problem is that a good first step to acknowledging invisible work is removing the need for human recognition of the work. I&#8217;ve worked with teams, guided them since I got here to define contributions as granularly as possible so that we can find ways to attach automated triggers to them so that you don&#8217;t have to do a ton of invisible things for someone to notice them and give you props for them. Obviously, the more automation, the more dehumanization, and of course, the work of breaking things into tiny chunks feels like micromanagement; it feels like value assessment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:06:01] <strong>Josepha:</strong> It also often felt like kind of a toxic tallying of who was doing what where. None of that is what any of us wanted when I started that work, and it&#8217;s certainly not what I want now. But because it is so often misread as a way to, like, separate out good contributions from bad, not all teams have embarked on that journey with me. And for those who have done that with me, not all of them have actually implemented, kind of that definition of the individual types of contributions you can make so that we can do that kind of automated acknowledgment of the work.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:06:40] (Music interlude)&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:06:47] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Which brings us now to our small list of big things. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>First on our list is WordPress 6.6. It&#8217;s our next major release. There are still a few volunteer roles that are available. I think documentation lead is one. So, if you are the sort of folk who just loves to write the docs, it&#8217;s been a while since you have done that for the WordPress project, with the WordPress project. That&#8217;s a great opportunity for you to kind of dip your toe in and see what&#8217;s going on in the world of WordPress. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:15] <strong>Josepha:</strong> The second thing on our list is a minor release that actually came out last week. It&#8217;s a maintenance release, but it&#8217;s one of those where it&#8217;s really important to get upgraded and make sure that you have the latest security and maintenance releases on all of your sites that are in production.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The third thing on our list is about Openverse. Openverse is now offering a new way to explore our collection. We&#8217;ve got over 800 million images and audio files in there. And so, the collection search makes it easier to view works that are belonging to an individual tag, creator, or source. It just kind of helps you filter it out a little bit more so that there are more decisions than there are options available in there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And the fourth thing on my list is that the WordCamp Europe 2024 schedule has been released. We&#8217;ll be talking a bit more about this event as we get closer and closer to it. We are racing our way. It&#8217;s like a month away as we go. So take a look, plan your activities, and come and check out our community.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:16] <strong>Josepha:</strong> And that, my friends, is your small list of big things. Don&#8217;t forget to follow us on your favorite podcast app or subscribe directly on WordPress.org/news. You&#8217;ll get a friendly reminder whenever there&#8217;s a new episode. If you liked what you heard today, share it with a fellow WordPresser. Or, if you had questions about what you heard, you can share those with me at WPBriefing@WordPress.org. I&#8217;m your host, Josepha Haden Chomphosy. Thanks for tuning in today for the WordPress Briefing, and I&#8217;ll see you again in a couple of weeks.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:44] (Music outro)&nbsp;</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 14 May 2024 12:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Brett McSherry\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:27;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:100:\"Do The Woo Community: All You Need to Know About WCEU 2024 with Organizers 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Taeke\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=83420\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:68:\"https://dothewoo.io/advancing-web-accessibility-with-anne-and-taeke/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:144:\"Hosts Anne and Taeke discussing their commitment to web accessibility, legal and ethical implications, and the business impact of accessibility.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Mon, 13 May 2024 08:30:03 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:29;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:66:\"Gravatar: OAuth 2.0 Simplified: Unraveling Authorization Protocols\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:32:\"http://blog.gravatar.com/?p=1408\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:93:\"https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/05/10/oauth-2-0-simplified-unraveling-authorization-protocols/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:20173:\"<p>When it comes to web security and user authentication, <a href=\"https://oauth.net/2/\">OAuth 2.0</a> is one of the most crucial protocols for managing access permissions without risking user passwords.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, if you’re looking to implement OAuth 2.0, this guide will go through its main characteristics and essential components, such as different roles, grant types, and endpoints that create a flexible authorization framework.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>What is Oauth2, and how is it used?</strong></h2>\n\n\n\n<p>An evolution of the now-obsolete OAuth 1.0, OAuth 2.0 is an industry-standard protocol for authorization, facilitating secure access to user data across the internet. It enables applications to obtain user data from a service provider, all without requiring the user to share their password with the application. This protocol acts as the middle man, granting access rights rather than exchanging sensitive login credentials. Here’s how:</p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>An application requests access to resources controlled by the user and hosted by a service provider. </li>\n\n\n\n<li>Upon user approval, the application receives an access token from the OAuth 2.0 server. </li>\n\n\n\n<li>This token then allows the application to access the user’s data, but only within the scope that the user has approved.</li>\n</ol>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"330\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-24.png?w=660\" alt=\"OAuth Protocol\" class=\"wp-image-1409\" />\n\n\n\n<p></p>\n\n\n\n<p>OAuth 2.0 greatly improves security and reduces potential vulnerabilities, as applications do not need to store, manage, or directly handle user passwords. It helps protect user privacy by ensuring that applications can only access specific, user-approved information. This selective access is important in minimizing the risk of over-sharing personal data.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>One of the most visible applications of OAuth 2.0 in everyday internet use is the “Log in with…” feature found on many websites. This allows users to access multiple platforms using a single set of credentials, streamlining the login process while maintaining high security and privacy standards.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"660\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-25.png?w=660\" alt=\"Example of sign-in window \" class=\"wp-image-1410\" />\n\n\n\n<p></p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Roles in the OAuth 2 framework</strong></h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Understanding the different roles and their interactions within the OAuth 2.0 framework is necessary for developers and IT professionals aiming to implement OAuth in their applications. Let’s take a look:</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Resource owner</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>The resource owner is the person or entity that has the authority to grant access to their private resources (like personal information or data) stored on a server. This person decides whether an application can access that data and what level of access it can have.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For example, if you are using a service like a social media platform and a third-party application requests permission to access your profile information or post updates on your behalf, you, as the resource owner, have the authority to approve or deny such requests. This approval often comes in the form of an authentication process followed by an authorization step, where you explicitly grant permissions to the application.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Resource server</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>The resource server safely stores the resource owner’s data and is responsible for validating the access tokens presented by the client, ensuring that only authorized requests are fulfilled.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Upon receiving a request, the resource server checks the accompanying access token to verify its authenticity and relevance for the requested resources. If the token is valid, the resource server proceeds to serve the requested data, following strict security measures.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Besides the token validation, the process includes Secure Sockets Layer (SSL)/Transport Layer Security (TLS) encryption, scope restriction, rate limiting and monitoring, and secure token storage.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Client</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>The client refers to the application seeking access to the resource owner’s account. It initiates the authorization process by generating an authorization request Uniform Resource Identifier (URI), which redirects the resource owner to a consent page. Here, the resource owner can approve or deny the request for access.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Upon receiving authorization, the client is issued access tokens by the authorization server. These tokens are critical for accessing protected resources because they prevent unauthorized access and ensure the continued trust of the resource owner.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is why the client must manage them with utmost security, including storing them securely and handling token renewal processes efficiently.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Authorization server</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>The authorization server checks the resource owner’s login details and gives access tokens to the client. It has two main parts: <strong>the authorization endpoint </strong>and <strong>the token endpoint</strong>. The authorization endpoint is where the resource owner says yes to the client’s request for access. The token endpoint is where the client trades a special code for an access token.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>These parts help make sure that the client and the authorization server can talk safely and clearly and that access tokens are given out only after the resource owner’s details are correctly checked and approved.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Diving into OAuth 2.0 grant types</strong></h2>\n\n\n\n<p>OAuth 2.0 offers several grant types, each designed to cater to specific authorization scenarios. Understanding these grant types, their applications, advantages, and potential drawbacks is vital for implementing secure and effective authorization mechanisms.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Authorization code</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Web and mobile applications primarily utilize the authorization code grant type to obtain an access token after the resource owner grants access. This process is simple: </p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>The application redirects the user to the authorization server, where they can log in and approve the access request. </li>\n\n\n\n<li>Upon approval, an authorization code is sent back to the application, typically via a callback URL – this is called “redirection.”</li>\n\n\n\n<li>The application then exchanges this code for an access token at the authorization server. </li>\n</ol>\n\n\n\n<p>This method enhances security by using “verifiers” or “secrets” that prevent the interception of the access token. The redirection mechanism, coupled with the code exchange, forms a secure foundation for granting access while mitigating risks associated with direct token exposure.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Refresh token</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Refresh tokens are used to maintain long-term application access without requiring the user to authorize repeatedly. Once an access token expires, the application can use a refresh token to obtain a new one, thus ensuring continuous access. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>This mechanism is particularly beneficial for applications that require prolonged access to a user’s resources. However, it introduces security considerations, such as the potential for refresh token theft, so users have to be extremely careful to protect these tokens and limit unauthorized access.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Client credentials</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>The client credentials grant type is tailored for scenarios where an application needs to access its own resources rather than acting on behalf of a user. In this flow, the client authenticates itself with the authorization server using its own credentials and receives an access token in return.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This grant type simplifies the authorization process for accessing the client’s resources, making it suitable for internal applications that require no user interaction.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>These include: </p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Application authentication for <strong>accessing cloud resources</strong> to perform operations like backups, data analysis, or scaling resources based on load.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Authorization for <strong>automated tasks like database cleanup or software updates</strong>.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Application <strong>access to public APIs without user data</strong>.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Authentication for applications <strong>retrieving metrics, performing health checks, or executing management commands</strong>.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>However, since it does not involve user authorization, it is not applicable for accessing user-specific data.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Resource owner password</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>The resource owner password grant type assumes a high level of trust between the user and the client, as it involves sharing sensitive login details. It works like this:&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>User provides username and password to the client.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>The client sends these credentials to the authorization server.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Authorization server verifies credentials.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>If valid, the server issues an access token (and optionally a refresh token) to the client.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>The client uses the access token for authenticated requests on behalf of the user.</li>\n</ol>\n\n\n\n<p>Due to its inherent security risks, such as the potential for credential theft, this grant type should be used sparingly and only in contexts where other, more secure methods are impractical.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Implementing additional security measures, like using this grant type exclusively with confidential clients and adding extra layers of authentication, can help mitigate these risks.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Understanding endpoints in the OAuth2 framework</strong></h2>\n\n\n\n<p>In the OAuth2 framework, there are two key endpoints – ‘/authorize’ and ‘/oauth/token’. Using an OAuth library or framework can greatly simplify the management of these endpoints, handling much of the complexity behind the scenes.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>/authorize endpoint</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>The ‘/authorize endpoint’ serves as the initial step in the authorization process, where the resource owner authenticates with the service and grants access to the application. This endpoint is crucial for obtaining an authorization code in grant types like the ‘authorization code’ and, historically, the ‘implicit’ grant type.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, it’s important to note that the implicit grant type is no longer recommended by OAuth best practices and may be prohibited on some servers due to security concerns.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>When a user accesses the ‘/authorize endpoint’, they are presented with a consent screen. The URL for this endpoint typically includes several key parameters:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>Client ID: </strong>The public identifier for the application.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Redirect URI:</strong> The location where the authorization server sends the user after granting or denying access.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Response type:</strong> Indicates the authorization processing flow, typically set to “code” for the authorization code flow.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Scope:</strong> Specifies the level of access that the application is requesting.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>State:</strong> A Cross-Site Request Forgery (CSRF) token that can be used to mitigate CSRF attacks.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>These parameters help ensure the authorization request is explicit about its intentions and secure against potential threats.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>/oauth/token endpoint</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>The ‘/oauth/token endpoint’ is where the application can make a POST request to exchange an authorization code for an access token, renew an access token using a refresh token, or obtain an access token directly through the client credentials grant. This endpoint supports various grant types, including ‘authorization code’, ‘password’, ‘client credentials’, and ‘refresh token’.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>When generating tokens, the authorization server must ensure they are created securely and include any optional refresh tokens. This process is essential for maintaining the security and integrity of the access tokens. To prevent CSRF and other attacks, tokens must be handled securely, necessitating the use of HTTPS for all communications with this endpoint.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>A POST request to the ‘/oauth/token endpoint’ requires specific parameters depending on the grant type being used:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>Grant type: </strong>Specifies the grant type of the request.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Client ID and client secret:</strong> Credentials that authenticate the client to the server.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Code:</strong> The authorization code received from the ‘/authorize endpoint’ (for the authorization code grant type).</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Redirect URI:</strong> Must match the URI used in the original authorization request.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Understanding the authorization code flow</strong></h2>\n\n\n\n<p>The authorization code flow is designed to facilitate secure interactions between the client, the authorization server, and the resource server.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This flow is particularly important because it ensures that access tokens are not exposed in environments that are not fully secure, such as a user’s browser, thereby significantly reducing the risk of token interception.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Step 1: User authorization request</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>The process begins when the client directs the user to the authorization server. Here, the user authenticates themselves and consents to the client’s request for access to their resources.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This step is initiated through a URL that the client constructs, which includes parameters like the client ID, the requested scope, the redirect URI, and a state parameter for CSRF protection. An example URL might look like this:</p>\n\n\n\n<table class=\"has-fixed-layout\"><tbody><tr><td><a href=\"https://authorization-server.com/authorize?response_type=code&client_id=CLIENT_ID&redirect_uri=CALLBACK_URI&scope=REQUESTED_SCOPE&state=CSRF_TOKEN\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://authorization-server.com/authorize?response_type=code&#038;client_id=CLIENT_ID&#038;redirect_uri=CALLBACK_URI&#038;scope=REQUESTED_SCOPE&#038;state=CSRF_TOKEN</a></td></tr></tbody></table>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Step 2: Redirection and authorization code</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Upon successful authentication and authorization by the user, the authorization server redirects the user back to the client using the redirect URI provided in the initial request. This redirection URI includes an important element: the authorization code. It may also contain the state parameter if it was included in the initial request, ensuring that the request has not been tampered with.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Step 3: Exchanging the authorization code for an access token</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>The client then takes this authorization code and makes a backend request to the authorization server’s ‘/oauth/token’ endpoint to exchange it for an access token. This step is crucial because it occurs server-to-server, far from the potential prying eyes of malicious actors in the user’s browser environment. The request includes the authorization code, the client’s ID and secret (for confidential clients), and the redirect URI to verify the request’s authenticity.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The authorization code flow offers significant security advantages. By obtaining the authorization code through a user-agent redirect and exchanging it for an access token in a server-to-server call, the access token is kept away from the user’s browser history, reducing the risk of exposure.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This method provides a mechanism that caters to confidential and public clients while upholding the security integrity of the OAuth 2.0 framework.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Pairing Gravatar with your authorization server</strong></h2>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"403\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-26.png?w=660\" alt=\"Gravatar homepage\" class=\"wp-image-1412\" />\n\n\n\n<p></p>\n\n\n\n<p>The security of your users doesn’t stop with authentication but also extends to the way you manage their data. <a href=\"https://gravatar.com/\">Gravatar</a>, widely recognized for its globally unique avatars, is a profile management tool suitable for all kinds of websites, applications, and eCommerce stores.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If your website is integrated with Gravatar, then you’ll be able to import profiles from anyone who signs up with you and has a Gravatar profile. You’ll get access to any data that users have consented to reveal – and this not only streamlines the profile creation process but also ensures you don’t have to directly store user data from your end.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You can set Gravatar up in minutes and provide your clients with a great user experience while enjoying enhanced privacy and security measures.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Here is why Gravatar is an essential pairing with your OAuth authorization server:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>Easy integration:</strong> Developers can integrate <a href=\"https://docs.gravatar.com/general/hash/\">Gravatar’s API</a> into their applications in a matter of minutes. The process is straightforward, allowing for quick setup and minimal configuration.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Leveraging user data:</strong> Gravatar allows client applications to access and utilize users’ Gravatar profiles and functionalities. This capability enables developers to create a more personalized and cohesive user experience by incorporating user avatars and profile information seamlessly within their applications. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Security and data management: </strong>With Gravatar acting as the digital identity management platform, all user data is securely stored on Gravatar’s servers, relieving client applications of the burden and responsibility of managing sensitive user information. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Improved onboarding experience:</strong> By leveraging Gravatar’s platform, users can carry their online identities across different sites and applications seamlessly. This continuity promotes a sense of familiarity and personalization, as users can instantly recognize their own Gravatar profiles, facilitating smoother and more welcoming user interactions from the outset.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Take action: Secure your app with OAuth 2.0</strong></h2>\n\n\n\n<p>With its capability to protect sensitive information and ensure a seamless user experience, OAuth 2.0 stands as one of the best authorization protocols to keep websites and applications safe while facilitating access to user data. Choosing a professional authorization service can significantly streamline the integration of OAuth 2.0, enhancing your app’s security and user experience.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Furthermore, by integrating your website or web app with Gravatar, you get a reliable way of verifying your users when they sign up, a streamlined way for them to create profiles, and a secure third-party system for storing user information.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Don’t wait to secure your app with the industry-standard tool in digital identity management and authorization. <a href=\"https://docs.gravatar.com/\">Explore more about how Gravatar can be used alongside your authentication platform</a> and take the first step towards a more secure, user-friendly application experience.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 10 May 2024 17:39:51 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:11:\"Ronnie Burt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:30;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:11:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:1:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:53:\"HeroPress: HeroPress in Taco Land, and in Pizza Land!\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:29:\"https://heropress.com/?p=6773\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:147:\"https://heropress.com/heropress-in-taco-land-and-in-pizza-land/#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=heropress-in-taco-land-and-in-pizza-land\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14850:\"<img width=\"1024\" height=\"683\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/196639fbe23c9bd8.61422393-1024x683.jpg\" class=\"attachment-large size-large wp-post-image\" alt=\"A yellow motorcycle parked on the sidewalk of a narrow urban alleyway with white buildings and graffiti on the walls.\" /><div class=\"wp-block-kadence-spacer aligncenter kt-block-spacer-6773_3be450-2d\"><div class=\"kt-block-spacer kt-block-spacer-halign-center\"><hr class=\"kt-divider\" /></div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"kb-row-layout-wrap kb-row-layout-id6773_2e6ddb-21 alignnone kt-row-has-bg wp-block-kadence-rowlayout\"><div class=\"kt-row-column-wrap kt-has-1-columns kt-row-layout-equal kt-tab-layout-inherit kt-mobile-layout-row kt-row-valign-top kb-theme-content-width\">\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-column kadence-column6773_ff075e-83 inner-column-1\"><div class=\"kt-inside-inner-col\">\n<h2 class=\"kt-adv-heading6773_7ae94a-21 wp-block-kadence-advancedheading\">Memories</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Yesterday would have been my mother&#8217;s birthday, <a href=\"https://topher1kenobe.com/fifteen-years-without-my-mom/\">it&#8217;s been 15 years</a>. Here&#8217;s a photo of her in her beloved forest with a grand daughter.</p>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/anne_and_granddaughter_walking-840x341-1.webp\"><img width=\"840\" height=\"341\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/anne_and_granddaughter_walking-840x341-1.webp\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-6775\" /></a>\n</div></div>\n\n</div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-spacer aligncenter kt-block-spacer-6773_8a1faf-ac\"><div class=\"kt-block-spacer kt-block-spacer-halign-center\"><hr class=\"kt-divider\" /></div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"kb-row-layout-wrap kb-row-layout-id6773_7b9e14-9e alignnone kt-row-has-bg wp-block-kadence-rowlayout\"><div class=\"kt-row-column-wrap kt-has-1-columns kt-row-layout-equal kt-tab-layout-inherit kt-mobile-layout-row kt-row-valign-top kb-theme-content-width\">\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-column kadence-column6773_3ea4b3-86 inner-column-1\"><div class=\"kt-inside-inner-col\">\n<h2 class=\"kt-adv-heading6773_195a97-37 wp-block-kadence-advancedheading\">HeroPress In Italy</h2>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/wceu_updates.jpg\"><img width=\"1024\" height=\"296\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/wceu_updates-1024x296.jpg\" alt=\"WCEU Latest Updates\" class=\"wp-image-6680\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<p>WordCamp Europe 2024 is just about exactly one month away. We&#8217;re going through Detroit and Paris-De Gaulle, and arriving at about 10:30am on Tuesday. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Who are we going to see? Stop by the <a href=\"https://heropress.com/slack/\">HeroPress Slack</a> and let is know, I&#8217;d love to touch base with you!</p>\n</div></div>\n\n</div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-spacer aligncenter kt-block-spacer-6773_763cc5-10\"><div class=\"kt-block-spacer kt-block-spacer-halign-center\"><hr class=\"kt-divider\" /></div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"kb-row-layout-wrap kb-row-layout-id6773_d10ec9-b7 alignnone kt-row-has-bg wp-block-kadence-rowlayout\"><div class=\"kt-row-column-wrap kt-has-1-columns kt-row-layout-equal kt-tab-layout-inherit kt-mobile-layout-row kt-row-valign-top kb-theme-content-width\">\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-column kadence-column6773_10001b-72 inner-column-1\"><div class=\"kt-inside-inner-col\">\n<h2 class=\"kt-adv-heading6773_0e2b08-02 wp-block-kadence-advancedheading\"><a href=\"https://heropress.com/\">HeroPress.com</a> &#8211; <a href=\"https://heropress.com/essays/being-a-freelancer-can-be-the-most-stable-thing-in-taco-land/\">Being a freelancer can be the most stable thing in Taco land</a></h2>\n\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image is-style-default\">\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/essays/being-a-freelancer-can-be-the-most-stable-thing-in-taco-land/\"><img width=\"300\" height=\"300\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Jos-Velasco-3-min-300x300.jpg\" alt=\"Jos Velasco\" class=\"wp-image-4086\" /></a></div>\n\n\n<p>When Jos wrote his essay he lived in Mexico, but has since moved to Bogotá!</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>As time goes by, you realize that it is a good idea to choose your battles. And that there are things that you can achieve little by little if you have enough continuity.</em></p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jos&#8217;s essay is <a href=\"https://heropress.com/essays/being-a-freelancer-can-be-the-most-stable-thing-in-taco-land/\">available</a> on <a href=\"https://heropress.com\">HeroPress.com</a>.</p>\n</div></div>\n\n</div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-spacer aligncenter kt-block-spacer-6773_d40e4d-dd\"><div class=\"kt-block-spacer kt-block-spacer-halign-center\"><hr class=\"kt-divider\" /></div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"kb-row-layout-wrap kb-row-layout-id6773_792db0-92 alignnone kt-row-has-bg wp-block-kadence-rowlayout\"><div class=\"kt-row-column-wrap kt-has-1-columns kt-row-layout-equal kt-tab-layout-inherit kt-mobile-layout-row kt-row-valign-top kb-theme-content-width\">\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-column kadence-column6773_5ac0da-65 inner-column-1\"><div class=\"kt-inside-inner-col\">\n<h2 class=\"kt-adv-heading6773_fa6ad8-b2 wp-block-kadence-advancedheading\"><a href=\"https://heropress.com/\">Press Releases!</a></h2>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image is-style-default\">\n<img src=\"https://heropressnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/pressitwp_logo-300x130.jpg\" alt=\"Press It WP\" class=\"wp-image-4736\" /></div>\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://pressitwp.com\">PressItWP.com</a> has been a part of the <a href=\"https://heropressnetwork.com\">HeroPress Network</a> for almost a year now, if you ever release Press Releases, please consider <a href=\"https://pressitwp.com\">PressItWP</a>!</p>\n\n\n\n<p></p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-the-wp-community-collective-and-godaddy-launch-new-program-to-empower-and-promote-underrepresented-speakers-in-wordpress\"><a href=\"https://www.thewpcommunitycollective.com/2024/05/06/press-release-godaddy-wc-fellows/#new_tab\">The WP Community Collective and GoDaddy Launch New Program to Empower and Promote Underrepresented Speakers in WordPress</a></h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Dateline: May 7, 2024 Source:  <a href=\"https://pressitwp.com/source/courtneyr_dev/\">The WP Community Collective</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p>The WP Community Collective, in partnership with GoDaddy, is thrilled to announce the WC Fellowship program, which aims to support and promote underrepresented speakers within the WordPress community. This initiative not only offers financial support and networking opportunities but also strengthens the collective voice by increasing diversity at WordPress events.</p>\n</div></div>\n\n</div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-spacer aligncenter kt-block-spacer-6773_f38b4f-91\"><div class=\"kt-block-spacer kt-block-spacer-halign-center\"><hr class=\"kt-divider\" /></div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"kb-row-layout-wrap kb-row-layout-id6773_eccff4-f3 alignnone kt-row-has-bg wp-block-kadence-rowlayout\"><div class=\"kt-row-column-wrap kt-has-1-columns kt-row-layout-equal kt-tab-layout-inherit kt-mobile-layout-row kt-row-valign-top kb-theme-content-width\">\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-column kadence-column6773_f99cd6-55 inner-column-1\"><div class=\"kt-inside-inner-col\">\n<h2 class=\"kt-adv-heading6773_9b9fab-5d wp-block-kadence-advancedheading\"><a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com\">WP Podcasts</a></h2>\n\n\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com\"><img src=\"https://heropressnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/pocket_casts_single_315.png\" alt=\"Pocket Casts image\" class=\"wp-image-4316\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<p>There were <em>Twenty-three</em> WordPress podcast episodes released this week!</p>\n\n\n\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https://dothewoo.io/take-the-gender-equality-in-wordpress-businesses-survey/#new_tab\">Take the Gender Equality in WordPress Businesses Survey</a> from <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com/podcast/do-the-woo-a-woocommerce-podcast/\">Do the Woo &#8211; A WooCommerce Podcast</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://wpcoffeetalk.castos.com/episodes/wpcoffeetalk-courtney-pk#new_tab\">WPCoffeeTalk: Courtney P.K.</a> from <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com/podcast/wpcoffeetalk/\">WPCoffeeTalk</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://share.transistor.fm/s/60a94427#new_tab\">6 Biggest WordPress Moves While Mullenweg Was On Sabbatical</a> from <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com/podcast/the-wp-minute/\">The WP Minute</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://unbilleteachattanooga.com/episodio-261/#new_tab\">Episodio 261: Ensalada de WordPress</a> from <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com/podcast/un-billete-a-chattanooga/\">Un billete a Chattanooga</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/the-sdm-show/episodes/Episode-412-Legends-of-WordPress-Podcasting--Lessons-Learned-Podcasting-e2jcnln#new_tab\">Episode 412: Legends of WordPress Podcasting- Lessons Learned Podcasting</a> from <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com/podcast/the-sdm-show/\">The SDM Show</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>There are new episodes every single day, so be sure to stop by <a href=\"https://wppodcasts.com\">WPPodcasts.com</a> and search for things that interest you!</p>\n</div></div>\n\n</div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-spacer aligncenter kt-block-spacer-6773_c83c58-4a\"><div class=\"kt-block-spacer kt-block-spacer-halign-center\"><hr class=\"kt-divider\" /></div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"kb-row-layout-wrap kb-row-layout-id6773_ab7a51-8c alignnone kt-row-has-bg wp-block-kadence-rowlayout\"><div class=\"kt-row-column-wrap kt-has-1-columns kt-row-layout-equal kt-tab-layout-inherit kt-mobile-layout-row kt-row-valign-top kb-theme-content-width\">\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-kadence-column kadence-column6773_d07d75-1f inner-column-1\"><div class=\"kt-inside-inner-col\">\n<h2 id=\"wpphotos\" class=\"kt-adv-heading6773_96a801-ec wp-block-kadence-advancedheading\"><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos\">WP Photos</a></h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Here are some of the great photos submitted to the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos\">WPPhotos</a> project this week!</p>\n\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/196663889b7942d38.44952149-scaled.jpg\"><img width=\"1024\" height=\"683\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/196663889b7942d38.44952149-1024x683.jpg\" alt=\"Three silhouetted people walking along the shoreline with waves coming in at sunset.\" class=\"wp-image-6783\" /></a><a href=\"https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/\">CC0</a> licensed <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/196663889b/\">photo</a> by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/author/nilovelez/\">Nilo Velez</a> from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4716638d22c433f60.38289070-scaled.jpg\"><img width=\"768\" height=\"1024\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4716638d22c433f60.38289070-768x1024.jpg\" alt=\"A serene waterfall cascading down mossy rocks into a tranquil pool surrounded by lush green foliage.\" class=\"wp-image-6782\" /></a><a href=\"https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/\">CC0</a> licensed <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/4716638d22/\">photo</a> by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/author/neerajk1409/\">NEERAJ K</a> from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2676638b92c995028.14192632-scaled.jpg\"><img width=\"1024\" height=\"685\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2676638b92c995028.14192632-1024x685.jpg\" alt=\"A close-up of a purple water lily with raindrops on its petals, surrounded by green lily pads.\" class=\"wp-image-6781\" /></a><a href=\"https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/\">CC0</a> licensed <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/2676638b92/\">photo</a> by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/author/mkrndmane/\">Makarand G. Mane</a> from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1446639ceeface483.76965581-scaled.jpeg\"><img width=\"768\" height=\"1024\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1446639ceeface483.76965581-768x1024.jpeg\" alt=\"A serene landscape with a wide-open field in the foreground leading to a small fence, with a backdrop of majestic mountains under a vast sky with a few wispy clouds. Couralam, Tamilnadu.\" class=\"wp-image-6780\" /></a><a href=\"https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/\">CC0</a> licensed <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/1446639cee/\">photo</a> by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/author/nejwrks/\">Nebu John Thaliyath</a> from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/977663b946e6b2813.71280860-scaled.jpg\"><img width=\"1024\" height=\"576\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/977663b946e6b2813.71280860-1024x576.jpg\" alt=\"A seating bench under the shades of tree which is golden in color.\" class=\"wp-image-6779\" /></a><a href=\"https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/\">CC0</a> licensed <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/977663b946/\">photo</a> by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/author/mkrndmane/\">Makarand G. Mane</a> from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/351663b47acdc70a7.19440880-scaled.jpg\"><img width=\"1024\" height=\"768\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/351663b47acdc70a7.19440880-1024x768.jpg\" alt=\"A blue motorboat floating on the clear turquoise waters in Maldives near a sandy beach with tropical foliage in the background.\" class=\"wp-image-6778\" /></a><a href=\"https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/\">CC0</a> licensed <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/351663b47a/\">photo</a> by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/author/sourav926/\">Keramot UL Islam</a> from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.\n\n\n\n\n<p>Be sure to check out the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">hundreds of other great photos</a>!</p>\n</div></div>\n\n</div></div>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-spacer\"></div>\n\n\n\n<p>The banner at the top of this post is a <a href=\"https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/\">CC0</a> licensed <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/196639fbe2/\">photo</a> by <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/author/nilovelez/\">Nilo Velez</a> from the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/photos/\">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s it for this week! If you&#8217;d like to get this post in your email every week, <a href=\"https://heropressnetwork.com/newsletter\">make sure you sign up</a>!</p>\n<p>The post <a href=\"https://heropress.com/heropress-in-taco-land-and-in-pizza-land/\">HeroPress in Taco Land, and in Pizza Land!</a> appeared first on <a href=\"https://heropress.com\">HeroPress</a>.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 10 May 2024 13:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:31;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:101:\"Do The Woo Community: Local UK WordPress Events and More with Dan Maby, Paul Smart and Nathan Wrigley\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=83451\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:99:\"https://dothewoo.io/local-uk-wordpress-events-and-more-with-dan-maby-paul-smart-and-nathan-wrigley/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:146:\"Dan Maby, Nathan Wrigley and Paul Smart talk about the shift and challenges in hosting WordPress events in the UK, from virtual back to in-person.\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 10 May 2024 09:11:44 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:32;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:55:\"Gravatar: Unveiling the Best Single Sign-On Solutions \";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:32:\"http://blog.gravatar.com/?p=1396\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:62:\"https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/05/09/single-sign-on-solutions/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:15925:\"<p>Single Sign-On (SSO) is an innovative technology designed to simplify your online experience. SSO allows users to log in to multiple applications or platforms using just one set of credentials, eliminating the need to remember numerous passwords. This enhances user experience and boosts security by reducing password fatigue.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In this article, we’ll be taking a closer look at the best SSO solutions, catering to a wide range of needs – from internal user management within enterprises, businesses, schools, and other organizations to online, user-facing platforms.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Let’s begin!&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Understanding Single Sign-On (SSO) solutions</strong></h2>\n\n\n\n<p>SSO is a popular approach to digital identity management, allowing users to access multiple applications with just one set of credentials. This method simplifies the login process, enhances security, and reduces the need for multiple passwords.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Here’s how it works:</strong> Upon the initial login, SSO verifies the user&#8217;s identity and generates an authentication token to access other connected systems, eliminating repeated login prompts.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This method brings many benefits, such as increased user convenience, lower IT costs for managing password recovery, and heightened security by minimizing password-related risks.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, it&#8217;s important to differentiate SSO from cloud identity and access solutions, which offer broader identity management features beyond SSO, such as password vaults, directory services, user provisioning and de-provisioning, authorization, and role-based access control.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>SSO is particularly useful in:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>Corporate settings</strong>, where employees access numerous platforms.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Educational institutions</strong>, for easy access to learning resources.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Websites and eCommerce</strong>, enhancing user experience with quicker logins.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Social media </strong>for streamlined access across platforms.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>If you want to add SSO to your workflow, keep reading as we look into the various options available.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Exploring Top SSO solutions&nbsp;</strong></h2>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>OneLogin</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"247\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-16.png?w=660\" alt=\"OneLogin homepage\" class=\"wp-image-1398\" />\n\n\n\n<p></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.onelogin.com/product/sso\">OneLogin</a> is a leading SSO provider designed for IT systems and organizations, including enterprises and educational institutions. It simplifies identity and access management, offering a secure and efficient way to manage access across numerous applications.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Key features and benefits:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>Multi-Factor Authentication (MFA):</strong> Adds an extra layer of security by requiring users to provide multiple forms of verification before accessing applications.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Multiple logins:</strong> Allows admins to create any number of logins for the same type of application. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>User management and reporting: </strong>Enables administrators to easily manage user access, monitor login activities, and generate reports for insights into user behavior and system performance.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Social logins: </strong>This feature lets end users log in with their social media credentials from sites like <a href=\"https://www.facebook.com/\">Facebook</a>, <a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/\">LinkedIn</a>, and <a href=\"https://twitter.com/?lang=en\">X (Twitter)</a>. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>User experience: </strong>Provides a smooth and intuitive interface, ensuring users can easily navigate and access needed applications.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Cisco Duo&nbsp;</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"331\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-17.png?w=660\" alt=\"Cisco Duo homepage\" class=\"wp-image-1399\" />\n\n\n\n<p></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/security/duo/index.html\">Cisco Duo</a> is recognized for its comprehensive security solutions tailored for organizations seeking advanced protection and seamless user access. This includes government institutions, educational organizations, healthcare, legal, retail, and financial services.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Key features and benefits:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>Device security health checks:</strong> Before granting access, Cisco Duo assesses the security health of the device, ensuring it meets your organization&#8217;s standards. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Adaptive authentication:</strong> The authentication process is dynamic, adjusting requirements based on the user&#8217;s location, device, and network environment. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Security compliance and data privacy:</strong> The platform supports organizations in meeting security compliance standards and upholding data privacy regulations. It provides tools and features designed to maintain accountability and protect sensitive information.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Customer support: </strong>Cisco Duo is renowned for its exceptional customer support, offering extensive resources, including documentation, tutorials, and a responsive support team, to ensure users can effectively implement and utilize its access management solution.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Microsoft Entra ID&nbsp;</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"274\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-18.png?w=660\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-1400\" />\n\n\n\n<p></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/security/business/identity-access/microsoft-entra-id\">Microsoft Entra ID</a>, part of the broader <a href=\"https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/security\">Microsoft security ecosystem</a>, is a leading identity and access management solution. It’s designed to work within modern enterprises, providing secure and seamless access to applications on-premises and in the cloud.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Key features and benefits:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>Conditional access and control features:</strong> Microsoft Entra ID enables administrators to define and enforce policies that control access to applications and data based on user, location, device state, and behavior. This ensures that access is securely managed and compliant with organizational policies.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Multifactor authentication: </strong>The platform adds an extra layer of security, requiring users to provide two or more verification factors to access applications. These include <a href=\"https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/security/mobile-authenticator-app\">Microsoft Authenticator</a>, <a href=\"https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/entra/identity/authentication/concept-authentication-passwordless\">FIDO2 security keys</a>, and <a href=\"https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/entra/identity/authentication/concept-certificate-based-authentication\">certificate-based authentication</a>. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Data security and privacy measures: </strong>Microsoft Entra ID provides different tools for ensuring data security and privacy, including encryption in transit and at rest. It also offers advanced auditing and reporting features, allowing organizations to monitor and review access logs and activities for compliance and security analysis.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Integrations: </strong>The tool’s integration within the Microsoft ecosystem allows full compatibility with a wide range of Microsoft products and third-party applications. </li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>JumpCloud</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"370\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-19.png?w=660\" alt=\"JumpCloud homepage\" class=\"wp-image-1401\" />\n\n\n\n<p></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://jumpcloud.com/\">JumpCloud</a> is another comprehensive platform for cloud-based directory services, offering great single-sign-on solutions to businesses that want to improve user management and enhance security.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Key features and benefits:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>User management and directory services: </strong>JumpCloud&#8217;s directory services act as a central hub for managing user identities, allowing IT teams to control access to resources across the network. This simplifies user provisioning and de-provisioning and ensures access rights are accurately reflected across all systems.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Security compliances and system-management capabilities: </strong>The platform adheres to strict standards, offering features like end-to-end encryption and regular security assessments. JumpCloud&#8217;s system management capabilities provide users with tools for device and app management that enhance overall security posture.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>User experience:</strong> JumpCloud is known for its focus on creating a positive user experience, offering a user-friendly interface that simplifies access management for both administrators and end-users. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Available support resources: </strong>These include a large knowledge base, community forums, and responsive customer support. These resources are designed to help users maximize the platform&#8217;s capabilities and address any issues swiftly.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Okta</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p><img src=\"https://lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/r7e6e0jm3Id3bfh2yuYFV7v9FWEi4PhCqbVJex9tSguEFVXdBXXZbgm3yeRkgNw-cZpCHeqk1h168Cwfm_IwAbDOpoUfeOhZSMvRAVzsa9Qit9vp0FtQNP4Su4LQki3a-y05MhSW7t0FBbK7lXJnLQg\" width=\"624\" height=\"236\" /></p>\n\n\n\n<p></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.okta.com/\">Okta</a> has established itself as a leader in the SSO space, offering a versatile platform that supports businesses in securely managing and automating user identities and access controls.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Key features and benefits:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>Adaptive Multi-Factor Authentication: </strong>Okta&#8217;s adaptive MFA requires additional verification based on the context of the access request, such as user location, device, and the application being accessed. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Identity providers: </strong>There is support for over 40 social login providers and easy configuration of enterprise connections, such as Active Directory, LDAP, ADFS, SAML, and more. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>User experience: </strong>Okta prioritizes a frictionless user experience, providing a straightforward and intuitive interface for administrators and end-users. The ease of navigating its platform and accessing applications contributes to higher productivity and user satisfaction.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Management capabilities: </strong>These include centralized provisioning and de-provisioning of user accounts, support for coarse-grained and fine-grained authorization protocols, and advanced analytics for personalized targeting and user growth. </li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>The role of Gravatar in web-based SSO</strong></h2>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"403\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-20.png?w=660\" alt=\"Gravatar homepage\" class=\"wp-image-1403\" />\n\n\n\n<p></p>\n\n\n\n<p>Gravatar, short for &#8220;Globally Recognized Avatar,&#8221; is a service that allows users to create a profile and avatar that accompany them across various online platforms. It&#8217;s designed for anyone looking to maintain a consistent identity online, solving the problem of fragmented digital personas, particularly web applications, customer portals, membership sites, <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/\">WordPress</a> websites, newsletters, eCommerce sites, and online courses.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Unlike traditional SSO services that focus solely on login mechanics, Gravatar extends its functionality to manage online identities, enhancing users&#8217; digital presence across different platforms.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>What this means is that when users with Gravatar profiles can carry over their profile information across any website or web app that has integrated with the Gravatar API – which streamlines the profile creation and onboarding process for them.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>How Gravatar works</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>A Gravatar is a unique avatar automatically associated with the user&#8217;s email address, following them from site to site. It appears next to their name when they comment on blogs, sign up for websites, or participate in online discussions. This universality means users can maintain a consistent image across the web, enhancing recognition and trust.</p>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"414\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-21.png?w=660\" alt=\"Gravatar profile example\" class=\"wp-image-1404\" />\n\n\n\n<p></p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>User privacy and control</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Gravatar places a strong emphasis on user privacy and control. Users can manage their profiles and decide how much information to share, ensuring their online presence aligns with their privacy expectations. This focus makes Gravatar particularly appealing to privacy-conscious users and those who frequent multiple web platforms.</p>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"281\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-22.png?w=660\" alt=\"Gravatar profile security settings\" class=\"wp-image-1405\" />\n\n\n\n<p></p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Implementation and online experience</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>For website, app, and eCommerce store owners, Gravatar simplifies the profile creation and user registration process. Allowing users to bring their Gravatar profiles to new sites can significantly increase registration rates and, consequently, conversion rates. This ease of integration and the enhancement of the online experience make Gravatar an attractive option for both users and developers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For web developers, Gravatar offers easy integration, enabling personalized and streamlined sign-ups while adhering to user privacy principles.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"289\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-23.png?w=660\" alt=\"Gravatar developer feature\" class=\"wp-image-1406\" />\n\n\n\n<p></p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Make the smart SSO choice for your needs</strong></h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Including single sign-on in your organization and websites is a great way to convenience users while paying attention to data security and personal privacy. Throughout this article, we&#8217;ve explored a variety of top-tier SSO solutions tailored for internal organizational use in enterprises and educational institutions, each offering its unique set of features, security measures, and integration capabilities.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, for developers focused on creating user-friendly experiences for websites, stores, or apps, Gravatar is arguably one of the best identity management solutions built around the principles of SSO.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Unlike conventional options, this tool excels in creating a unified online identity, allowing users to carry their profiles and avatars across various platforms effortlessly, fostering a sense of trust and continuity.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Gravatar&#8217;s commitment to privacy, its status as an open-source leader, and its developer-friendly API make it an invaluable tool for those prioritizing user control over personal information.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, if you’re intrigued by the unique benefits and potential of Gravatar for web development, <a href=\"https://docs.gravatar.com/\">find out how Gravatar is revolutionizing SSO</a> for the online space, and subscribe to our newsletter to stay tuned for more information.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Thu, 09 May 2024 16:50:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:11:\"Ronnie Burt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:33;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:66:\"Gravatar: Crafting a Custom User Profile Page on WordPress: How-To\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:32:\"http://blog.gravatar.com/?p=1384\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:60:\"https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/05/09/wordpress-profile-page/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14157:\"<p>The default WordPress user profile options are a bit bare-bones, allowing users to enter only the most basic details when they sign up on your website. This not only leads to a lackluster user experience but also limits the valuable data and insights you can gather as a website owner.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Imagine, instead, a WordPress site where every user profile is a unique, dynamic representation of the individual behind it. By creating custom profile fields on the sign-up page, you can allow users to share their stories, interests, and expertise.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the benefits of customized user profiles go beyond just the user experience. By gathering rich, detailed information about your users, you can gain valuable insights into your audience demographics, preferences, and behavior. This data can inform everything from content strategy to product development, helping you tailor your offerings to better serve your community.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So how do you unlock the full potential of user profiles on your WordPress site? In this article, we&#8217;ll dive into the world of front-end user profile customization, exploring powerful plugins and tools like <a href=\"https://gravatar.com/\">Gravatar</a> that make it easy to create a cohesive, engaging brand experience across every user profile.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>The limitations of WordPress&#8217; built-in user profile system</strong></h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/\">WordPress</a>’ native user system is simple and straightforward. However, it might be a little <em>too </em>simple for website owners who want to implement custom frontend profiles for users. Here’s a look at its limitations:&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>Limited information storage: </strong>When someone signs up on your website, WordPress only saves the essentials, like username and email address. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>No frontend editing capabilities:</strong> Unless you grant a user backend access, they won’t be able to directly edit their information within WordPress. </li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Lack of personalization: </strong>By default, WordPress user profiles don’t have fields for personal details, which means users can’t provide details such as their phone number, location, or address, or personalize their profiles with their bio or links to their social media accounts.<strong> </strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Limited customization options for profile fields: </strong>Extending profile fields or functionalities requires additional plugins or coding.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Absence of integrations: </strong>The standard WordPress profile lacks integrations with social media and external platforms, limiting user engagement and connectivity across different online channels.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Unsuitable for advanced sites: </strong>While the WordPress profile is great for simple use cases, complex sites, like those focusing on memberships, eCommerce, or community-driven interactions, require advanced profile management solutions.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Exploring plugins for frontend user profile management</strong></h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Frontend user profile plugins make it easy for users to update their <a href=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/2013/10/02/add-your-wordpress-sites-to-your-gravatar-profile/\">WordPress user profile pages</a> without needing backend access.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>As the name suggests, these plugins let users tweak, edit, and manage their profiles right from the site&#8217;s front end. By offering various customization and integration options, front-end user profile plugins play an important role in addressing the limitations of the default WordPress profile. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Let’s explore some of the popular plugins and their essential features:&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>User Registration</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"305\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-9.png?w=660\" alt=\"User Registration Homepage\" class=\"wp-image-1386\" />\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/user-registration/\">User Registration</a> is a versatile plugin that allows users to create custom registration forms for their WordPress sites.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>With an intuitive drag-and-drop form builder and unlimited customization options for fields and forms, this plugin is ideal for websites that require flexible and customizable user registration forms, such as membership sites, online communities, and eCommerce platforms.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, you need to upgrade to a premium version to access advanced features, such as integrations with payment gateways, email marketing platforms, and other third-party services. User Registration’s pricing ranges from $79 per year for a single site to $299 per year for unlimited sites.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Profile Builder Pro</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"334\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-10.png?w=660\" alt=\"ProfileBuilderPro Homepage\" class=\"wp-image-1387\" />\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.cozmoslabs.com/wordpress-profile-builder/\">Profile Builder Pro</a> comes packed with features like social login, customizable forms, and even multi-step forms for a great user experience. While its sleek design and integration with <a href=\"https://woocommerce.com/\">WooCommerce</a> are big pluses, some advanced features might need add-ons.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Although it isn’t the simplest tool for beginners, if you&#8217;re running a website that requires advanced profile management capabilities, like an online directory or a job board, this plugin could be the right fit. Profile Builder Pro’s plans range from €69 per year for a single website to €429 one-time payment for unlimited websites.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>ProfilePress</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"315\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-11.png?w=660\" alt=\"ProfilePress Homepage\" class=\"wp-image-1388\" />\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://profilepress.com/\">ProfilePress</a> simplifies user registration, login, and profile management on WordPress. It comes with customizable forms, social login, and user verification features.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>ProfilePress is known for its easy-to-use interface, making it a great choice for beginners and those who want to create a basic user-friendly website.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, accessing advanced features, like payment gateways and multilingual support, requires purchasing a premium ProfilePress plan and enabling the relevant add-ons. ProfilePress is also the most expensive option on this list, starting at $125 per year for a single website and going up to $499 per year for unlimited websites.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Toolset</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"1600\" height=\"971\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-15.png\" alt=\"Toolset Homepage\" class=\"wp-image-1394\" />\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://toolset.com/\">Toolset</a> allows you to create custom post types, taxonomies, and fields on your WordPress site. It&#8217;s perfect for building complex websites with unique content structures.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Thanks to its drag-and-drop interface, Toolset is user-friendly and allows for custom views, queries, and layouts. Toolset is ideal for developers and large-scale agencies looking to build custom, data-driven websites with advanced features.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>However, the pricing for Toolset can be steep, especially for those with simpler website requirements. The plugin starts at €69 per year for a single site and goes up to €299 per year for unlimited sites.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Why Gravatar is an even better solution for WordPress profile pages</strong></h2>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"354\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-12.png?w=660\" alt=\"Gravatar Homepage\" class=\"wp-image-1389\" />\n\n\n\n<p>Though not a plugin, <a href=\"https://gravatar.com/\">Gravatar</a> by <a href=\"https://automattic.com/\">Automattic</a> is a powerful tool that helps users maintain their online identities across the internet with a universal profile. Here’s how it stands out from the rest:&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Simplifies the user experience</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"332\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-13.png?w=660\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-1390\" />\n\n\n\n<p>Integrating your website with the Gravatar Application Programming Interface (API) can seriously streamline the user sign-up process. When a user signs up with an email address linked to their <a href=\"https://support.gravatar.com/profiles/your-profile/\">Gravatar profile</a>, you can automatically pull their profile information, such as avatar, name, and bio, to pre-fill the corresponding fields on your website. This enables the functionality you want and makes the process extremely straightforward for your users!</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Symbiotic relationship with WordPress</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Gravatar and WordPress share a symbiotic relationship: <a href=\"https://automattic.com/\">Automattic</a>, the company behind <a href=\"http://wordpress.com\">WordPress.com</a>, also happens to be the brains behind Gravatar. This means site owner profiles on WordPress.com are all pulled from Gravatar. Plus, across the WordPress ecosystem, Gravatar is the go-to for avatars in default user profiles and comments.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Data and security</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>At Gravatar, we take a privacy-forward approach. This means users have complete control over their personal data and can decide what’s public or private. They can also manage all their profile information in one centralized location for added security.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This approach offers several benefits for website owners. You don’t actively store any data, and you can build personalized experiences for your users based on the information they choose to share with you.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Ease of integration and developer support</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"660\" height=\"310\" src=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/image-14.png?w=660\" alt=\"Gravatar for developers \" class=\"wp-image-1391\" />\n\n\n\n<p>Gravatar&#8217;s straightforward setup process and compatibility with various platforms make it easy to integrate. And, for developers, Gravatar comes with full API support, meaning you can customize and extend its functionality to suit your needs.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Maximizing Your Website&#8217;s Profile Potential with Gravatar</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>Gravatar offers a suite of powerful customization options that enable you to tailor user profiles to perfectly align with your brand and community. Here are just a few ways Gravatar can help you maximize your website&#8217;s profile potential:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>Offer extensive profile customization:</strong> With Gravatar, you can give your users the flexibility to tell their stories on their own terms. From adding bios and profile links to adjusting privacy settings, Gravatar&#8217;s user-friendly interface makes it easy for your community to create rich, dynamic profiles that showcase their individuality.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Build user credibility:</strong> By integrating Gravatar&#8217;s verification features into your website, you can give your users the ability to confirm their identities <a href=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/04/10/personal-branding-tools/\">unify their digital presence</a> by adding social links. With Gravatar, users can add multiple popular platforms, including <a href=\"http://wordpress.org\">WordPress</a>, <a href=\"https://www.instagram.com/\">Instagram</a>, <a href=\"http://x.com\">X/Twitter</a>, <a href=\"http://tumblr.com\">Tumblr</a>, <a href=\"http://tiktok.com\">TikTok</a>, <a href=\"https://github.com/\">GitHub</a>, <a href=\"https://www.twitch.tv/\">Twitch</a>, and more.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Foster creative expression:</strong> A picture is worth a thousand words, and Gravatar allows your users to express themselves visually through custom photos and designs. Encourage your community to get creative with their avatars – a makeup artist could showcase their range with multiple looks, while a graphic designer could feature their most eye-catching work.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\"><strong>Optimize your WordPress profiles with Gravatar</strong></h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Setting up custom frontend profiles isn’t possible by default, but with <a href=\"https://gravatar.com/\">Gravatar</a>, it is! Here’s how it makes life easier for you and your users:&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>Syncs profile images: </strong>Gravatar ensures that your users&#8217; online identity follows them wherever they go. By syncing their profile images across different sites, Gravatar spares them the hassle of <a href=\"https://blog.gravatar.com/2010/03/26/gravatar-profiles/\">setting up profiles</a> time and time again, making it easier for you to maintain a consistent user experience.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Ease of management: </strong>Gravatar allows your users to manage and update their profile information from a single location. This helps ensure that they maintain a consistent online identity without the headache of managing multiple profiles separately.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Enhanced security: </strong>With Gravatar, your users have complete control over their profile information. They can make their profile as public or private as they want, giving them the flexibility to share only the information they feel comfortable with.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>By optimizing user profiles with Gravatar, you can enhance user engagement, trust, and site loyalty, which could open doors for monetization opportunities on your WordPress site. <a href=\"https://docs.gravatar.com/\">Explore all the possibilities that are available with Gravatar</a> and start creating fantastic user experiences today!</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Thu, 09 May 2024 16:42:57 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:11:\"Ronnie Burt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:34;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Matt: Bay Lights Are Returning!\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=114203\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:47:\"https://ma.tt/2024/05/bay-lights-are-returning/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1591:\"<p><a href=\"https://illuminate.org/\">Illuminate</a> has crossed the funding threshold it needed to actually kick off the project of bringing the Bay Lights back to San Francisco, <a href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/02/us/bay-bridge-lights.html\">as Heather Knight writes for the New York Times</a>. The upgraded lights will be visible not just from San Francisco but also in Oakland, Treasure Island, Berkeley&#8230; all across the Bay. It&#8217;s felt like the lights have been the lumen-physical embodiment of San Francisco&#8217;s struggles: sparkling and inspiring at the start, then facing troubles, a trough of darkness, and now hope for something better sparked and on the horizon.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;d love to get as many citizens and addresses in San Francisco as donors, however small, <a href=\"https://illuminate.org/the-bay-lights-360/\">to round out the last bit of the funding</a>, so that as many people as possible can feel the ownership and pride of making the city better. Back in January when I promoted this last it was on a terrible platform, it&#8217;s now been <a href=\"https://givewp.com/\">re-done by the GiveWP team to be totally native WordPress and a slick donation experience</a>, easy to do on mobile and with Apple Pay. (Major kudos to <a href=\"https://devin.org/\">Devin Walker</a> there!) Please share <a href=\"https://illuminate.org/the-bay-lights-360/\">the link</a> to your friends, especially ones that see the bridge from their home, for $10 it&#8217;s the cheapest pro-social dopamine boost you can have every time you look at the bridge.</p>\n\n\n\n<p></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Thu, 09 May 2024 11:58:33 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:35;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:75:\"WPTavern: #119 – Paolo Belcastro on How AI Is Shaping WordPress Wordflows\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:48:\"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=155685\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:89:\"https://wptavern.com/podcast/119-paolo-belcastro-on-how-ai-is-shaping-wordpress-wordflows\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:61945:\"Transcript<div>\n<p>[00:00:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, how AI is shaping WordPress workflows.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com forward slash feed forward slash podcast. And you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head over to wptavern.com forward slash contact forward slash jukebox and use the form there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So on the podcast today, we have Paolo Belcastro. Paolo works at Automattic, where he&#8217;s focused on Jetpack and .blog products. He&#8217;s been working remotely since 1994, and managing distributed teams since 1998.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>He&#8217;s on the podcast today to talk about AI. And he certainly brings a wealth of knowledge and experience in integrating AI with web development. .</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Paolo brings detailed insights into how they&#8217;re making decisions about what to develop in Jetpack AI. This is to take it beyond simple tasks like typo corrections, and grammar adjustments, to more sophisticated functions, such as content translation, tone adjustment, and even complex texts summarizations. All done directly within the WordPress editor.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The focus isn&#8217;t just on the functionality AI brings, but also on the efficiencies it introduces for developers and content creators alike. Allowing them to shift their focus from tedious tasks to more creative and challenging aspects of web development.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also tackle the broader implications of AI in the tech industry. Discussing potential risks, the ongoing concern about AI&#8217;s impact on jobs, and the ethical considerations of AI in creative roles.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We get into an exploration of the balance between AI&#8217;s utility, and the indispensable value of the human touch in crafting meaningful digital experiences.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>With Paolo&#8217;s insights into the recent advancements in open source AI models and the collaborative efforts within the AI community to keep platforms accessible but innovative, you&#8217;ll gain a comprehensive view of where AI in web development stands today, and where it might head tomorrow.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re a developer, a tech enthusiast, or anyone interested in the intersection of AI and creative processes, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com forward slash podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>A quick note before we begin, this was recorded live at WordCamp Asia. There was quite a lot of background noise to contend with, and I&#8217;ve done my best to make the audio as easy to listen to as possible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so, without further delay, I bring you Paolo Belcastro.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I am joined on the podcast by Paolo Belcastro. Hello. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:48] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> Hi Nathan.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:59] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong>  Very, very nice to have you on the podcast today. We&#8217;re going to talk about AI, the topic which keeps on giving, throughout the year 2023, and probably throughout 2024 and 2025. Because we&#8217;re talking about AI, I guess, Paolo, it would be useful to know what your credentials are. To get some understanding of why what you say carries weight. So will you just tell us a little bit about you, what you do for a living, who you work for. Biography, really.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:15] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> Yes. So I work at Automattic, the company behind wordpress.com, Jetpack, WooCommerce, and I work particularly on Jetpack.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And my AI credentials, so to speak, are that, since last May, so about a year ago, we started working on Jetpack AI, that we launched in June 2023 at WordCamp Europe. And we have been developing this set of tools for people to use AI in the editor directly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;m also a very heavy user of AI tools. So for that you have to take my word, but I&#8217;ve been using them a lot. Yeah, and I made a presentation about AI yesterday, here at WordCamp Asia.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:58] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Was it well attended? I imagine AI is popular at the moment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:01] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> Yeah, it was actually as attended as the room allowed, like people were sitting on the floor, so I couldn&#8217;t. But yeah, it&#8217;s not a very big room, but I actually like a small room packed much more than a large room half empty, so I was pretty happy.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:14] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> How have you managed to integrate AI into the Jetpack suite of things? I&#8217;m guessing this is all still fairly new.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:22] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> Yeah it&#8217;s fairly new, still experimental. We are really trying to produce experiences, and listen to users who use them, and adapt them. Our first iteration was really about saying, let&#8217;s just bring the tools that everybody can now access in ChatGPT, or at the time was called Bard, it&#8217;s now I think Gemini. And basically bring them to the editor. Why would you have to go and copy paste with all the formatting problems that can arise?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we extended the Gutenberg editor with a block, an AI block, that is a chat interface, where you can chat with the AI assistant. And we also extended a certain number of blocks, like the paragraph, the title, the headers, the table, and the forms, with an AI button that you can use to ask for a certain number of operations. And we started with what AI does best, which is text transformation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So say you have written something, you can ask, of course, for typo and grammar correction, that&#8217;s the most used feature. You can ask for translation, which is really useful for people who, like a lot of people might want to publish in English, but that&#8217;s not their primary language. Of course, there&#8217;s other translation tools out there but, again, having it in the auditor is practical. And it does, of course, translation across many languages, not just to English.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We have also a tone transformation. If you, say you wrote something and you feel like it should be a little more formal, or more informal, maybe humorous, so you can choose one of the tones. You can of course summarise text, you can ask it to expand on something you wrote. So those are all tools to help you polish your text.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, I am a strong believer of the fact that AI is very valuable. Use it as a tool to improve what you are writing, as opposed to a tool that is going to write for yourself. So I don&#8217;t really believe we can get to any good results, at least today, by starting with a blank page and telling AI, hey, write me an article about Taipei, because I went to WordCamp Asia and I&#8217;m too lazy to blog. I don&#8217;t think that works. It&#8217;s going to write the same article for everyone, or roughly. And so that&#8217;s not interesting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>What is interesting is, I write a draft about Taipei because I&#8217;m here, and I write my experiences, and maybe it comes out a bit like a stream of consciousness. And then I can ask the AI, can you take all that text I wrote and make an outline for me?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So now I can organise my ideas that I put in that text. And maybe I feel that, okay, I should move that up, I should move that down, I should remove this. And once my outline has been polished, and has become a little more clear, I can actually tell the AI, can you take my original draft, this new outline, and reorganise my draft to match this new outline?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So now I have a new draft where I&#8217;ve been working with AI, like I would be working with an assistant, or with a colleague, or with someone helping me. I find that&#8217;s where the value really lies, because then it&#8217;s still me. It means that someone else, doing the exact same steps, will get to a completely different result, because it&#8217;s their mind, their content, their experience.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But we can accelerate the process, because it&#8217;s all about producing more, not for quantity, but because more writing leads to better writing. The quantity leads to quality. It&#8217;s not just about putting out more content. It&#8217;s that, whatever the craft you are in, whether it&#8217;s writing, photography, recording podcast, it doesn&#8217;t matter, the more you do it the better you get.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:53] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So your key takeaway there, it feels like is that the human is at the center of all the things. You still need a human in order to produce something that humans would like to consume. So it&#8217;s not, you know, if you write the article about Taipei, and you don&#8217;t in any way inspect what&#8217;s been written, the chances are you&#8217;re going to end up with something that is, no human is going to wish to consume.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It will fill up the words on a page. It will look like 10,000 words, in the same way that everything else with 10,000 words would look. But you&#8217;ll get into it and you&#8217;ll immediately have an intuition that, actually, what is this? There was no care taken in this. Okay, that&#8217;s interesting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:31] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> And what&#8217;s interesting is that, that happens of course. The tools are there available to everyone, and so definitely people started using them to produce tons of content. It&#8217;s not very different from what they were doing before. There were already content farms before, and people writing tons of articles about subjects that they know nothing about.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I don&#8217;t know if you like cooking, but if you have looked for a recipe online, you have all these sort of SEO content, that is completely irrelevant for cooking the cake, but it&#8217;s there. That existed before. AI allows you to do more of that, but it&#8217;s not more value than before. If you don&#8217;t share your experience, if you don&#8217;t share your feelings, if you haven&#8217;t lived through the things, then it&#8217;s not Interesting, interesting for humans.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> There was something that you said a moment ago, and I&#8217;ve written down a series of questions and I&#8217;ve shared them with you. But there was a couple of things that you said which interested me, and I&#8217;d like to pursue that for a moment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You talked about the different things that Jetpack AI can do. And you mentioned you can do translation, you can change the tone. There was a bunch of other things. Are you only able to do those variety of things that the AI companies provide with their API? I don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s how it&#8217;s working. So they offer the capacity to change the tone, they offer the capacity to change the, I don&#8217;t know, the language or what have you. Is there a limited subset of things that you can do because of what they provide to you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:51] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> Well, we actually do a bit more because, yeah, I got on a tangent and we haven&#8217;t finished what Jetpack AI can do for you. So the way those API work, and this is the very interesting part is that those tools, those large language models as they&#8217;re called, manipulate text, generate text basically. The core abilities generate text, actually their core abilities figure out what the next most likely word is after a given text.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But text is not only content. Text can also be instructions, or text can be a configuration file, text can be a JSON object, it&#8217;s all text. So we can do more sophisticated things than just generating text. For example, the first very basic step is that, if you go to Jetpack AI and oh, can you give me the list of the 10 most visited monuments in the world, ranked by order of traffic, and put them in a table.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now the AI is going to do couple of things. First is going to, of course, go and seek that data in the training data they have. Or online because now they can actually go online and check on other websites and get fresh data. Then it&#8217;s going to create content you asked, but then it can also format it, in this case for a table using markdown, so that in your editor you get a table block inserted, as opposed to a list of things.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s when the AI becomes interesting, is that, anyone who has used a table block in Gutenberg knows that, once the table is there, if you want to reorder it, for example, it&#8217;s a little bit of an annoying work, because you don&#8217;t really have a way to select all and say, sort by this field. The AI can do that, so you can say, reorder this table by alphabetical order, and it&#8217;s going to do that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And we push the experiment a little further with Jetpack Forms. So Jetpack Forms allow you to create forms, a recipe form, a contact form, a subscription form, whatever. And the standard way we have been doing it for a while was that, when you insert a form block, we offer you seven templates. You choose one, or you choose an empty. And once you have your form, then you are manipulating manually. You can add blocks, remove blocks, all the sub elements of the form.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And now we have added the AI system to the form. So you can ask for a form that does exactly what you need. So for example, your RSVP form, let&#8217;s say it&#8217;s for a dinner, you can say, well, add menu to indicate allergies to food. It&#8217;s going populate it with the most common ones. Of course, you can ask for more if you need. Oh, actually I want to know where people come from, so can you add a menu with all the cities in Austria, because maybe I&#8217;m organising a dinner in vienna and I want to know that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that is very interesting because on the one hand it&#8217;s practical, because filling those menus with all the options is very long. But also now the AI is manipulating Gutenberg blocks. So we had to figure out how do we get, because typically, for example, something interesting is that the API will stream the result back to us. So we get that as a stream of data, but we cannot display it as a stream of data, because otherwise blocks would be invalid as long as they&#8217;re not closed.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we had to learn how to buffer those elements, so that we only show blocks. But we don&#8217;t want to wait for the whole stream to be finished, because it&#8217;s nice to stream the result. And so now what we do is that we buffer the stream, so that we showed block by block, and so we stream in bigger chunks. This is all experimentation that is made possible by the fact that, yes, those API only manipulate language, but actually everything we do is language, because coding is language.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:32] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It just occurred to me, sitting here now having this conversation, three years ago, if we were to sit here, the same conversation that we&#8217;re having now would&#8217;ve been absolutely unimaginable. There&#8217;s not one part of it where any of that was plausible. That was science fiction, what you just said, three years ago, that you write something in and a service which has seriously large amounts of data at its disposal, gives you information back, and then the website that you run puts it into a table, you can then tell it to be reordered, and we could go on. There&#8217;s a million different permutations.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Completely impossible. And yet now, well, not mundane, that&#8217;s the wrong word, but you get the point. It&#8217;s now trivial, and it&#8217;s what everybody expects. And that&#8217;s really remarkable.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:18] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> Yeah, that tells something about how progress doesn&#8217;t happen always in a continuous line, there&#8217;s steps. And we have seen those before. I mean, I was one of those people old enough to watch the presentation first iPhone. That keynote, that is almost ridiculous to think that this is just a consumer device, it&#8217;s like a piece of metal and silicon and everything.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But back then it made me happy, curious, excited to try a new gadget. Today, it almost makes me cry when I watch it because it&#8217;s a pivotal moment. Our lives have changed. Our lives were some way, and now are a different way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>As much as someone can disagree with, you cannot disagree really with that. You can be angry about it if you want, but the reality is that having internet in your pocket has changed the world. There were other moments like that, you know, your first dialup internet connection.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For me, that&#8217;s where it stops because I was born in 1970, so I had a computer in 1982, and that&#8217;s the first of those moments. I assume other people might have that with television, or the car in the past. So there&#8217;s those pivotal moments in our history that are really important. So I think this is one of those, that&#8217;s why it&#8217;s so critical.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then though, it tells also something about our ability to adopt new technology fast. Because the first computer, I got one in 1982 in my house. It took years before there was a computer in every house. And then the iPhone took a lot less, but still a few years before everybody had an iPhone, or a Android equivalent phone in their pocket. And now because each one of those layers has enabled the next one, well, when the pivotal moment is an app, and everybody has a phone with internet in their pocket, the path is very short.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:08] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> To say that AI is available to a significant proportion of humanity, I think is true. And it was available right out of the gate, because you can do it from the phone, you can do it from your laptop. Incidentally, my moment there was the first time that I saw a flat LED color screen. I remember just staring at that thinking, how did they get color into that? It was remarkable.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Okay, so, absolutely true, there&#8217;s AI everywhere. Tell us what it can do at the moment to help WordPressers. Obviously you&#8217;ve been through that you can create forms, you can ask it to create content for you in the form of text, and what have you. Can it do other things? Is it possible to, for example, create entire pages, or entire websites, or images that can drop in?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:51] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> It can. So in terms of images, for example, we launched a feature recently that is actually not in Jetpack AI yet. We launched it on wordpress.com, which is a logo creator. And so what it does is that when you say, oh, I need a logo, because most WordPress themes have a space for a logo somewhere, generally on the top left corner. It takes whatever content is already in the site, maybe the tagline, the site name. There isn&#8217;t much generally, because that&#8217;s often something you do at the beginning, but it takes that and generates a logo for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then of course you can alter it. You can chat with the assistant to say, I don&#8217;t like this, or I want it monochrome, or I want it more stylish, or I want it more modern. So that&#8217;s one example. We started with the logo because we figured that was one of those situations where you generally want to create an image out of nothing, as opposed to modify existing images.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, there&#8217;s other developments at Automattic, for example, on the WooCommerce side. I have to admit, I&#8217;m not up to date with the latest things they launch, because it&#8217;s a big company Automattic now, and it&#8217;s hard to follow everything in real time. But they are launching features centered around managing a store online.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>There are a few tools you probably have heard out of WordPress, that allow you to create websites, or landing pages with AI. I cannot really go into detail because there are experiments running inside Automattic right now, they&#8217;re not yet ready for prime time. I only can say stay tuned. AI can do a lot more than just manipulating text.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:25] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It feels like the goal for many people, the desire for many people, is to put a non-technical user in front of a computer, and within five minutes, something approximating a finished website will appear. So like you say, you can handle the logo right at the outset.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We install WordPress, vanilla version of WordPress, and we go through some kind of process. Tell me about your website, just give me a few sentences. Where are you based? Do you want a contact form? Yes. And then out the back, five minutes later comes a website.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s ever going to deliver the perfect website, but it feels like a lot of people would love something like that. And I think there are commercial products that do things like that, but I don&#8217;t really know.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:20:10] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> So there&#8217;s two interesting things here. I want to put a pin on the non-technical user that you mentioned, because I think we should come back to it later. It&#8217;s a very interesting point of discussion. But going to the creating the site, yes of course, everybody wants to be able to very quickly get to something that resembles what they need, or what they have in mind.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s not a new thing. For example, WordPress through themes has always allowed something like that, where you look at a theme repository, you&#8217;re like, oh, I really like this one and I can picture it with my images and this. And then, yes, once you install that theme, it took a little bit of knowledge to get it really where you want it. So definitely, we can have AI tools that accelerate this process.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And what&#8217;s interesting here is that , I go back to what the human puts in, it&#8217;s still going to need an understanding of how should a website, for example, you are building a restaurant website, the fact that you have tools that make it easier and faster to get the result you want, still require you to know exactly what is the best way to present a restaurant, so that it has more appeal, that people want to book it, that people understand the menu.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So what&#8217;s interesting here is that, again, we build tools that accelerate the process, but the value of the human remains the same. If someone has built sites for 35 restaurants, and someone else has never built one, the results that person that has experience will get with AI will be much better than the person who has never built one. Because, out of the box without the human input, the AI will have a tendency to, again, go average. That&#8217;s the whole point of figuring out the most likely token that comes out of a suite of tokens is converging to the middle. And so the presence of the human makes the whole difference.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then there&#8217;s the question of, oh, is this a tool for an end user building one site, or is this a tool for a professional building sites for clients? I would argue for both, because the professional, probably the AI will save them less time per site, because they already had processes, they already had templates, they already a system to streamline launching a new site. But maybe they save less time per site, but because they do that hundreds of times a year, the benefit is huge.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Whereas the end user, they will save a lot more time on a given site. But maybe they build only one, so that&#8217;s going to be a one time gain. I think also about the fact that now we can customise the way AI behave a lot. There&#8217;s custom instruction, there&#8217;s system prompt, there&#8217;s a number of tools. I want this AI to consider this context, this data, this frame of reference. And we can imagine there that professional user that does that very often will invest more time in customising their AI, and making it suitable to their need, so that it&#8217;s more and more efficient for what their specialty is.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:09] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. It&#8217;s interesting because one of the key things about your talk was, you really did want to make it clear that you are very bullish about the fact that AI is not going to be taking away jobs from web developers. I&#8217;d like to sort of develop that a little bit, because I, like everybody else, have been confronted with that possibility. And in my mind I&#8217;ve thought, if this gets really good at doing all the things that I can do, and it appears to be, that&#8217;s not a horizon which I can&#8217;t foresee us arriving at fairly soon. But you are much more sanguine. You think there&#8217;s always going to be space for the developer. There&#8217;s always going to be space for the human, and the technical things, the experience that they bring. So let&#8217;s just unpack that a little bit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:48] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> Yeah. So let&#8217;s use a parallel with another technological revolution. Let&#8217;s think about the Industrial Revolution and Agra Revolution. There used to be a time in Europe where 9 out of 10 people needed to be farming the land or breeding animals. Before the Industrial Revolution, 9 people had to work in a farm to feed 10, and those 10 were themselves, and then one. So that gave one person the possibility of doing something else. And then we invented more tools, and mechanical tools, and we invented engines, and we automated all that. Today, 250 years later, maybe one person, every thousand, needs to be a farmer to feed everyone.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, there&#8217;s two things that are interesting here. First of all, it has taken a long time. It hasn&#8217;t happened overnight. Also, still today, we need farmers. So my point is to say AI, as an entity, is not going to take your job. Another developer using AI might be taking your job though, because they&#8217;re going to become a lot more efficient. But the reassuring part in that is that now becomes accessible to everyone. If I am afraid that AI is going to take my job, how can I compete with a machine? But if I&#8217;m looking at another person using a tool that I can also use, now it&#8217;s up to me to say, well, if I want to keep doing this job, I can use the tools, they&#8217;re available to me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now what&#8217;s going to happen, like in every previous technology revolution, is that it&#8217;s going to also create a ton of new opportunities. So there might be people that would&#8217;ve been developers without AI, and now will be something else. The same way as, there were 9 out of 10 people farming the land 250 years ago, now it&#8217;s 1 every 1000. We are way more people on Earth, and still almost everyone has a job.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:25:43] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, those 999, they have things to do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:25:46] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> They have things to do. Even just the last 50 years, like we look at the computers have removed a ton of jobs that are now useless, because they were so easy to automate that we didn&#8217;t need AI. I remember, for example, when I was a kid, a friend of my parents, I remember I was impressed because I visited the place and I was impressed. They were working in one of those central telephone station, where you would connect people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:12] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Oh yeah. Literally the wires plugged into the wall.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:15] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> That&#8217;s now completely automated. But those people, like they did something else. So AI is a tool. As a tool it&#8217;s going to accelerate the work we do in some areas. Create new opportunities in others, but it&#8217;s just a tool. And like any other tool, if it&#8217;s just laying down there, is not going to do anything.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:26:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I think the thing that maybe causes people concern is, a, the fact that it all seems to be happening so quickly. So, you know, the farming analogy, it probably took many hundreds of years for the, slowly the technology became better, incrementally. It wasn&#8217;t like we went from 1000 farmers to 1 farmer, because somebody invented the combine harvester, and the motorised tractor overnight. So I think we&#8217;re living through that, potentially quite scary bit, because it&#8217;s all happening so quickly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I do like your analogy of the developer armed with AI, is likely to be a better developer. Given two equal developers, who&#8217;ve got the same experience. You know, if you could literally clone a developer and have an identical one, but put AI with this one, and this one is not allowed to use AI, you can imagine that the AI version of that developer is going to get to a different result, possibly quicker, more efficient, and what have you. And I like that. That kind of makes the AI a partner in a way, feels nicer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:34] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> Yeah, definitely. And I would add one thing that feels even more nice, which is that, if you could clone this developer just for the sake of the experiment, and one has AI and the other doesn&#8217;t. It&#8217;s not just that the one with AI is going to deliver faster. Fast forward six months, they&#8217;re not the same developer anymore, because the one with AI, in those six months, has been able to remove from their plate a lot of the tasks that are not really creative, where they don&#8217;t grow, and focus on the ones that are really hard.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So that&#8217;s when I was mentioning, I used the term tedious in my presentation a lot yesterday, because I was saying the AI can remove the tedious part of your work. Typically in the work of a developer, there is time spent thinking. By the way, most people overestimate the time a developer spends writing code on a keyboard. Most of the time you spend thinking. And then there&#8217;s the time spent writing on the keyboard. And a lot of that time is spent writing the same things over and over, because there are elements that are needed.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Whenever you start a new plugin for WordPress, for example, there&#8217;s a whole file structure that you have to put in place. Whenever you do this and these things, you will have to add all those sanitising functions, and you will have to add those unit tests, and that is not really creative. This is stuff you have done 20 times, 100 times, 1000 times. You just do them automatically.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you can save all that time to focus on the pieces that you have never done before, that&#8217;s where you grow. You challenge yourself. So six months in, those two developers have a very different trajectory, that&#8217;s the more important point. It&#8217;s not just the acceleration, it&#8217;s that the learning experience is accelerated by removing those pieces.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:29:15] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It feels like you are definitely reassuring me, because I think there is a part of me which sits on the worried side when it comes to AI, but every time you say a little bit more, I feel a worry going away, so this is good.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Let&#8217;s keep going down that track. Can you become better at using AI? Is it possible? In the same way that two people who can write PHP code, somebody is going to, you can just become better at it. There&#8217;s certain things that you can learn. Can you do the same with AI? Are there interesting novel ways to improve? Because I keep hearing in the media, that learning how to prompt AI is going to be a valuable skill of its own in the future.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:29:54] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> I think so. Definitely yes now. I would add that it&#8217;s imaginable that, as those tools become more and more sophisticated, the difference between abilities to prompt might fade. Because part of the skill today is in understanding the limitations, and leveraging, or working around those limitations to get the result you want. So it&#8217;s possible that as we go forward, those limitations disappear, and more sophisticated tools require less precision.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So what&#8217;s important today, I would say is training, testing, trying. I think that there is nothing like wanting a result, and trying in 20 different ways to get to that result, and see what works best. If you ask a question to, let&#8217;s use ChatGPT as an example, as the most popular. You ask a question to ChatGPT, it&#8217;s going to give an answer. There&#8217;s many ways to improve that answer. You can go back to your question, and you can say, my question might be a bit vague, maybe I have to specify the context.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Typically a lot of the early work was about saying, well, you have to tell ChatGPT who they represent. What is the role they&#8217;re playing? I remember, for example, reading, this was a blog post from the people who built Copilot at GitHub, and they were explaining a principle. It wasn&#8217;t exactly how they did it, but more the principle. They were saying, imagine you are configuring an assistant to be a support agent.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, you could tell the assistant, you are a support agent, and you are helping a customer fix their cable connection, whatever. The customer is angry, they want to watch their football game, you have to fix that fast. And maybe you can even say, oh, and here&#8217;s the documentation where you need to find information. But then what they were saying was, you can be more subtle and say, for example, you are an excellent support engineer, best of your class, and you work at this company where you support clients, and there&#8217;s these clients, there&#8217;s this case study of a client that had this problem.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And as it happens, you open your briefcase, and you look for the documentation of this case study, and the case study explains how you fix the problem. And this is the text that is on the page. And that&#8217;s where the AI takes over. And so that&#8217;s a way to say to the AI, you are an expert support agent, doesn&#8217;t mean much for the machine because the machine is not a being, sentient, these are just words.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So if you set the stage for the text they are supposed to be produced in the highest quality, which is, here&#8217;s an intervention where we help a customer, and it was so good that it&#8217;s a case study. And now you still give the documentation and everything, but you have set the stage for the AI assistant to actually continue that conversation properly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is one type of example. There&#8217;s another example of breaking down into step-by-step reasoning, chain of thought. You ask a question and you say, for example, you asked to write a function that does something. You get the output, and then you can ask the AI, can you explain me, step-by-step, how you got to this result? And now what&#8217;s interesting is that, by redoing the same work but step-by-step, the AI will develop each step and make corrections along the way. Because suddenly, where the first output was the result of this probabilistic analysis, the second output changes because, once the first point is laid down, oh, suddenly the second point that is more likely is not what was there before.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Because before it was seen as one thing. And now, step by step, the AI, there are people that say, this is not something I really have, I mean, I&#8217;ve tested, but just very briefly. There are people that say that you get better answers if you&#8217;re polite. And the idea behind that would be that, in the training data, conversations where people were polite were more likely to be constructive and helpful. Whereas conversation where people were rude, were probably less likely to be constructive and helpful, and therefore you direct the AI to use one area of the training data as a support.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But there&#8217;s other people that say that, actually it&#8217;s better to be direct and ask for the thing, as opposed to, can you do this and that? Because if you say, can you do this to a human, they&#8217;ll do it for you. But if you say, can you do this to a machine, they might sound like the sarcastic human that answers, yes I can, and then doesn&#8217;t do it. There&#8217;s people who have experimented with tipping, which you cannot actually do, but you can promise. You can say, hey, I&#8217;ll give you £100 if you do this and that for me. And apparently they say that the result would be better. Which, it&#8217;s hard to understand there what is the truth.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Recently something very interesting happened. There&#8217;s Anthropic launched Claude 3. It&#8217;s supposedly better than GPT 4. It has three levels of quality, based on how much you&#8217;re ready to pay for the responses. They started testing it. And now there&#8217;s a number of tests that are run on these LLMs to evaluate their performance.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The test that they ran was funny. It&#8217;s called the needle in a haystack test. So the idea is that you give a lot of content to the assistant, and then in that content you put one paragraph about a subject is completely unrelated to the rest of the content. And then you ask a question about that specific point. Previous versions of LLMs had a tendency to not be able to answer, because the fact that that content was very short, compared to the mass of other content, it was kind of overlooked.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>On top of that, apparently LLMs had a tendency to over index on the beginning of the provided content, and the end, and less the middle, which by the way is very much similar to humans.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:35:50] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Absolutely.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:35:51] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> But in that context, so there was, I can&#8217;t remember, the 200,000 tokens were about some subject, I can&#8217;t remember what. But the one paragraph that was the needle in the hay stack was about pizza toppings. And then they asked a question about pizza toppings. Claude 3 replied the right answer, so it got the reference.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But then added, it&#8217;s odd that there is content about pizza toppings in this text that is very long, and has no relationship with the subject. It&#8217;s almost as if this was a test for me to see if I&#8217;m paying attention.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Which is very funny because the first reaction is, oh my god, this thing is sentient. When the reality is very likely elsewhere. I think that the reality is much more that there might be in the training data mention of this type of text, because it&#8217;s hard now to isolate the data and say, oh, we shouldn&#8217;t train AI with anything that talks about AI. It&#8217;s almost impossible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:36:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Oh, so the AI may have picked up on a piece of text describing an equivalent AI test.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:36:50] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> I think that&#8217;s very likely, that it might have picked up on a paper, a research paper, or something like that. Now, is there a possibility that I am completely wrong, and these things have been sentient for a couple of years already, and they&#8217;re just telling us bit by bit? Yes. I don&#8217;t have a way of being 100% sure, but I would say I think that everything that, I think it&#8217;s, what is, Hanlon&#8217;s razor?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:37:14] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Oh, Occam&#8217;s razor.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:37:16] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> Occam&#8217;s razor is that, the most simple explanation is very often the right one. And so I&#8217;d be tempted to still think they are tools. They use mathematics to figure out language, and so they are able to produce those answers that make a lot of sense.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:37:31] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> But I guess the thing that&#8217;s interesting there is it&#8217;s so surprising. And it presents us with things which are well within its own capabilities, but they&#8217;re beyond the bounds of a typical human. So it seems like there&#8217;s something else going on. But it&#8217;s more plausible that it&#8217;s just a function of the data that&#8217;s been given. But because we can&#8217;t hold onto that much data, it seems like a god-like quality, but it&#8217;s not.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:37:53] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> No. Yeah, and we have other examples of things like that, that we got used to over time. I mean. If you recall, you probably have seen, I mean, neither of us were alive back then, but we probably have seen the images. When the Lumiere brothers showed the first movie of the train arriving in the station, everybody ran away. It&#8217;s very similar. If you think today, like the quality of that black and white movie, how can you imagine that being realistic? But it is.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I grew up with small TVs and black and white images, and it felt surreal. And now, of course when I look back at those things, I&#8217;m like, how is that even possible? You know, we talk about impossible things for humans, but I came here on a plane. I try to fly by myself, doesn&#8217;t work.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:38:38] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I never get over plane journeys. It&#8217;s always remarkable.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:38:41] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> How incredible is that? And so, yeah, this one is new and so we have this moment of reaction. At the beginning you said something, or we going to talk about AI 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 years from now. I think AI is going to stay. I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;re going talk about AI as much, as we don&#8217;t talk about electricity as much.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:39:01] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, or the film, or the aeroplane.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:39:03] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> It becomes part of the landscape. It&#8217;s there, but the novelty is we have all those images. On top of that, you were mentioning before that the, at the moment of the Agricultural Revolution, people weren&#8217;t scared about what was happening, because it didn&#8217;t happen overnight. I would also argue, they didn&#8217;t have a ton of movies and TV shows showing them a future with no farmers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We do have that, and so the moment we hear AI we&#8217;re like, oh my god, Sarah Connor, where is she? She has to save us. But these are movies.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:39:34] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That&#8217;s a really good point. So the fact that we&#8217;re in this 24/7, plugged in, media fed ecosystem, you know, where you just pull out your iPhone and you&#8217;ve got data coming in about the news. Yeah, that&#8217;s a good point. I hadn&#8217;t really thought about that. And so if you were the farmer in the, 1500&#8217;s, nobody was telling you, this is a concern, this tractor. So you&#8217;re not going to be concerned. Yeah, it&#8217;s a really good point.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Do you trust AI with your code? Do you get it to generate code and find that it&#8217;s largely error free? I was saying to you before we hit record that, if you create an image with AI, and it&#8217;s slightly incorrect, it doesn&#8217;t really matter, because the fingers look strange, or the ear lobes look a bit weird, but we can forgive it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And in the same way that if we create text for our blog post, we can modify that, or we may be happy with it at the beginning, and just accept that it&#8217;s got a few errors in it, and we&#8217;ll publish it anyway. But with code, I think we could be introducing security problems, or just simple errors. How confident are you writing code with AI, and how much do you have to go back and check every line?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:40:36] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> So this is a really good question. And I will use my specific context to answer it, because I haven&#8217;t been writing code that goes into production for a living since 1998. At Jetpack I am head of product, and I&#8217;ve been working with engineers for the last 26 years. So my code, I do still for fun, do stuff on my own, but is not critical at all. It&#8217;s little plugins that I&#8217;m the only user of. So it&#8217;s not really a concern for me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But what I would say is, this is an area where it&#8217;s really interesting. And that&#8217;s where the dimension of AI as a tool really is important. If you are a really good developer, you won&#8217;t have that problem because the AI is going to make you save time. It is going to make you move faster, but you&#8217;ll be able to recognise the problem in an instant. The same as if I am writing either blog posts for my blog, or if I&#8217;m writing internally at Automattic for our P2, you know, about Jetpack, about the blog, about any of the things I work on.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I know the field I&#8217;m writing about. And so, if at some point in the process, and the back and forth I use AI for, it introduces something dumb, I see it instantly. My point basically, because it&#8217;s a tool, and it&#8217;s not sentient, and it&#8217;s not intelligent, use it to help you in area you have expertise. In the areas where you are an expert, you can use it to accelerate your work. In the areas you are just interested in, you can use it if it&#8217;s not critical work.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But please don&#8217;t go near it in areas where you have no knowledge, and or critical. As an example, I would say, a surgeon using AI to go through papers faster might make sense, because they can spot the mistake. Me using AI to diagnose symptoms that I have, maybe I found a rash on my arm, and I&#8217;m going to ask AI, very bad idea.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I think in that scale, if you imagine that as a two by two matrix, am I the expert or am I a total newbie in this area? And then on the other axis, is this critical or is this completely safe? If we are on the safe side where there&#8217;s no consequences, it&#8217;s like a little plugin I&#8217;m writing for myself, or I&#8217;m asking AI about five things I could visit in Taipei, great. I can use it and just take the answer. Worst case scenario, it doesn&#8217;t work. If it&#8217;s critical, then I have to be the expert, and the AI is a tool that helps me be better at my job. But is not a tool that helps me do a job I&#8217;m not an expert of.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:43:17] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, that&#8217;s a good answer. So moving on, I&#8217;ve got a few more questions. We&#8217;ll try to be as quick as we can. The first question was, there seem to be a few companies which are dominating the AI space. So you&#8217;ve mentioned already Google, I think we could throw Open AI into that, and Anthropic, and there&#8217;s probably some more, but they&#8217;re the only three that come into my mind.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Does that part of the jigsaw puzzle concern you? That we&#8217;re increasingly reliant on three or four, maybe there&#8217;s more five, six large language models. And I just wondered if, given that we&#8217;re WordPress and we love open source, if there&#8217;s a platform, a project, which is trying to do something, but more in the open. Even though it&#8217;s called Open AI, it doesn&#8217;t feel particularly open.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:43:58] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> Yeah. So the interesting thing in the last year or so is that there has been a lot of movement on the open source side. It&#8217;s a bit ironic that the biggest advances on the open source side come from Meta, which is yet another very large company. But it doesn&#8217;t really matter because that&#8217;s the power of open source is that, once it&#8217;s in the open. So one thing with AI, and LLM&#8217;s, and open source is that it&#8217;s really important to understand what is actually open. Because an LLM, in terms of code, there isn&#8217;t like that much code.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If I give you an LLM post-training, it&#8217;s great to have it, and to be able to read the code and everything, but you can&#8217;t really modify much on it. If I give you the training data, then it&#8217;s a lot more interesting, because then you can reproduce. Now, keep in mind I&#8217;m not at that level technically. I am very much out of my comfort zone. But so my point is that, what has happened is that the first few foray to open source, or kind of open, but only the tail end of it. And so, okay, you get a tool that you can use, but you can&#8217;t really modify it, or you can&#8217;t really understand how it works.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And now there are versions that are open source from A to Z, including the dataset. Now, they&#8217;re not as big dataset, they&#8217;re not as powerful as the ones from the big names you mentioned. But what it appears is that it&#8217;s actually evolving very fast, because of course, being open source, once you put that in the hands of thousands of developers, in conjunction with the fact that we live at a time where computers can actually run that stuff locally. And so developers on a MacBook Pro, M3 can actually work, which wasn&#8217;t the case not that long ago. I think that this is going to catch up very fast.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, I believe, frankly, that is going to resemble software, where you know, you have WordPress that is the leader, CMS, like 43% of the websites and everything. That doesn&#8217;t stop closed platforms from existing. The two systems are probably going to be side by side. What we see now, for the moment, but again, we are super early stage, is we&#8217;re still at a moment where the closed platforms are moving faster. Because the kind of means that Open AI, or Google, or Anthropic have, open source takes a bit of a longer time to set up.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Like it&#8217;s very fragmented. A lot of people are doing different things. There isn&#8217;t like a strong coordination. And also they have then the infrastructure to run those models at scale, and to provide answer very quickly at a cheap price. I don&#8217;t expect them to be shadowed by open source anytime soon. But I do think that we have definitely hope that, going forward, we&#8217;ll have open solutions.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:46:50] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. It feels like that would be a nice outcome, if that did happen.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:46:54] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> One thing that is also important is that, for example, today the approach of Open AI, and Google, and Anthropic is very monolithic. It&#8217;s saying, we have this gigantic thing that knows everything and can help you. Whereas the open source approach is, because we cannot run such large models locally on laptops, it&#8217;s more to focus on simpler agents, that are more specialised at given tasks. And that then more complex task would be a collection of simpler agents, maybe orchestrated by another simple one.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So it&#8217;s interesting because we have seen the approach in the industry in general, right? You have monolithic industries that will build like a car. And every piece that goes in it, and every little part, they will have factories doing everything. And then you&#8217;ll have other type of industries where the same car is built by buying the tires here, the battery there, the engine there, the windshield there, and then assembling all that. And I think that both models can work. I don&#8217;t see a future where there&#8217;s going to be either only one, or only the other.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:48:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I think that&#8217;s good. That makes me feel better about it all, because it does feel that, at the moment, it&#8217;s all about Open AI, and they really are sort of dominating. I would like to think of a future where there are different alternatives.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Okay, couple of questions. We&#8217;ll be very brief about these one, because I&#8217;ve used up lots of your time, but I&#8217;ve enjoyed it, I have to say.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:48:18] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> No worries.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:48:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> In your presentation, you make the point that AI offers you the possibility, and I&#8217;ll just quote here, AI removes all the tedious parts of our work so that we can hone our craft, and there&#8217;s more but that&#8217;ll do for now. I had this intuition when I read that, and I just thought, maybe tedium, tedious, boring is an important part of the human condition. And I don&#8217;t really have a question around that, but is life spoiled a little bit, if there&#8217;s no boredom anymore, if everything&#8217;s quick and rapid? From a business perspective, that&#8217;s a dumb question. But from a sort of psychological perspective, and just a human nature perspective, I wondered if you had any thoughts on that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:48:58] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> Yeah, I actually don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a dumb question, even from a business perspective. I just listen to a little snippet from Rory Sutherland, who talks about, of course he&#8217;s in the advertising market, and he&#8217;s talking about using AI to remove all those steps and create a visual for a campaign, for example. And he was saying, we have to be careful, because in some of those jobs, the end result is not that important. It&#8217;s everything we learn along the way that is important. It&#8217;s the questions we ask to our users, to our vendors, to our sales people to get to that result that are really important.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I would say, I think that is very clear, that if we consider AI like a black box, in which I input an order, and I want a result on the other side, it&#8217;s not a good way to use it. It&#8217;s not progress. It&#8217;s not going to help us learn. So I go back to the example of me writing a blog post. If I tell the AI, write me a blog post about this subject. And even if I add, oh by the way, in Taipei, day one I did this, day two three, here&#8217;s five things I did, write me a blog post.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The blog post at the other side is not going to be great. I won&#8217;t have learned anything. I won&#8217;t have grown in any way. But if I use AI as a partner to write this post, and so what I do often is start by writing a draft that is really raw, really stream of consciousness, as it comes. Then I go to the AI and I say, can you, out of this draft, create an outline, and highlight the main ideas I&#8217;m talking about?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that first step already allowed me to do something critical, which is that I have a natural tendency of holding too many ideas in my head, and then writing blog posts where I talk about too many things. And then I lose people, and then people don&#8217;t really know what it&#8217;s about. Or then there&#8217;s no conversation after with my readers, because there&#8217;s so many subjects they don&#8217;t know what to talk about.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But by giving the AI the draft, and asking for an outline, and the main ideas, now I have much more clarity about what I was writing. So now I can reorganise this outline and I can say, actually, okay these go in that order, and these actually go in this order but out of this post, this is another post. So let&#8217;s move that aside.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so now I can go back to the AI, and have my simplified outline and I say, using my original draft, and using this modified outline, reorganise my original draft please, and write a new draft that fits this outline. And then I read that. And then I fix a lot of things. I correct, I remove any word that I wouldn&#8217;t use, and I put my way of speaking in it. But then I can go back to the AI and say, what is missing here? Am I missing an obvious point, or how am I wrong in this? And I sort of get the AI to challenge me a bit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is one of the things I mentioned in my presentation is that, it&#8217;s not just about accelerating, it&#8217;s also that the AI provides us with a partner that can give us feedback about our content. There&#8217;s the basic grammar, typos, and things like that, but also feedback about the quality, the clarity. But also a challenging partner that doesn&#8217;t belong to our own intellectual bubble.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Because when I ask feedback to my friends, I&#8217;m asking feedback to people that kind of think similar to me. I mean, we&#8217;re friends. What I&#8217;m saying basically is that, when I say removing the tedious part, I&#8217;m not saying shorten the path. It&#8217;s more about saying, remove the things I&#8217;ve done 20 times, 50 times, 1000 times in my life already, that don&#8217;t teach me anything anymore. And allow me to improve the quality, by challenging me, by giving me feedback, by doing those things that normally I wouldn&#8217;t have access to. Because, I mean, I&#8217;ve occasionally asked for feedback on a piece to friends or family, but I can do that once a year. I can&#8217;t bother people around me all the time like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:54] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, the AI is good, it doesn&#8217;t get bored.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:52:56] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> I want to be very clear with that, that it&#8217;s not about shortening the journey itself, as much as it is increasing vastly the density of the enriching steps.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:53:06] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, you said, at some point towards the beginning of your answer, you encapsulated it as, something along the lines of, it should allow you to grow, you&#8217;ll grow from it. That seems to be a nice place to sort of round it off.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So the idea of AI, if I&#8217;m getting you correct, is that it&#8217;s kind of a partnership. It&#8217;s not something you should use in isolation. It&#8217;s certainly not something that you should use if you don&#8217;t possess some capacity already, especially with code. And so use it as a partner. Enable it to speed things up. Enable it to teach you in the same way that you might go to the library and read a book. You&#8217;re going to learn something from it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So it&#8217;s not something to be feared, it&#8217;s something to be used. But it&#8217;s also, I guess this conversation is, be mindful. Don&#8217;t fall into those pitfalls. Don&#8217;t just use it blindly to create those articles that the audience is going to be zero, because it&#8217;s going to be so anodyne and uninteresting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s interesting. I was definitely more on the, not the terrified side, but the nervous side when we began this conversation. And you&#8217;ve definitely taken me off the ledge a little bit. So thank you so much, Paolo, for chatting to today. I really appreciate it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:54:14] <strong>Paolo Belcastro:</strong> Oh, it&#8217;s my pleasure. It was really nice to have a conversation with you and nice to meet you.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<p>On the podcast today we have <a href=\"https://paolo.blog/\">Paolo Belcastro</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Paolo works at Automattic, where he’s focused on Jetpack and .blog products. He’s been working remotely since 1994 and managing distributed teams since 1998.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>He’s on the podcast today to talk about AI, and he certainly brings a wealth of knowledge and experience in integrating AI with web development.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Paolo provides detailed insights into how they’re making decisions about what to develop in Jetpack AI. This is to take it beyond simple tasks like typo corrections and grammar adjustments, to more sophisticated functions such as content translation, tone adjustments, and even complex text summarisation, all done directly within the WordPress editor. The focus isn&#8217;t just on the functionality AI brings, but also on the efficiencies it introduces for developers and content creators alike, allowing them to shift their focus from tedious tasks to more creative and challenging aspects of web development.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also tackle the broader implications of AI in the tech industry, discussing potential risks, the ongoing concern about AI&#8217;s impact on jobs, and the ethical considerations of AI in creative roles. We get into an exploration of the balance between AI’s utility and the indispensable value of the human touch in crafting meaningful digital experiences.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>With Paolo’s insights into the recent advancements in open source AI models and the collaborative efforts within the AI community to keep platforms accessible but innovative, you’ll gain a comprehensive view of where AI in web development stands today and where it might head tomorrow.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re a developer, a tech enthusiast, or anyone interested in the intersection of AI and creative processes, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Useful links</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://automattic.com/\">Automattic</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wordpress.com/\">WordPress.com</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://jetpack.com/\">Jetpack</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://woocommerce.com/\">WooCommerce</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://jetpack.com/ai/\">Jetpack AI</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://asia.wordcamp.org/2024/speaker/paolo-belcastro/\">Paolo&#8217;s presentation at WordCamp Asia 2024</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://chat.openai.com/domain_migration?next=https%3A%2F%2Fchatgpt.com%2F\">ChatGPT</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://gemini.google.com/app\">Gemini</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://jetpack.com/forms/\">Jetpack Forms</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wordpress.com/logo-maker/\">Logo Creator</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://claude.ai/login\">Claude 3</a></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 08 May 2024 14:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Nathan Wrigley\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:36;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:55:\"WordPress.org blog: WordPress 6.5.3 Maintenance Release\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:35:\"https://wordpress.org/news/?p=17246\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:71:\"https://wordpress.org/news/2024/05/wordpress-6-5-3-maintenance-release/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:7633:\"<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">WordPress 6.5.3 is now available!</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>This minor release features <a href=\"https://core.trac.wordpress.org/query?status=closed&milestone=6.5.3&group=status&col=id&col=summary&col=owner&col=type&col=priority&col=component&col=version&col=keywords&order=priority\">12 bug fixes in Core</a> and <a href=\"https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/pull/61299\">9 bug fixes for the block editor</a>. You can review a summary of the maintenance updates in this release by reading the <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/05/02/wordpress-6-5-3-rc1-is-now-available/\">Release Candidate announcement</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>WordPress 6.5.3 is a short-cycle release. The next major release will be <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/6-6/\">version 6.6</a> planned for July 2024.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you have sites that support automatic background updates, the update process will begin automatically.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You can <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/wordpress-6.5.3.zip\">download WordPress 6.5.3 from WordPress.org</a>, or visit your WordPress Dashboard, click “Updates”, and then click “Update Now”.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For more information on this release, please <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/support/wordpress-version/version-6-5-3\">visit the HelpHub site</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Thank you to these WordPress contributors</h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"is-style-default\">This release was led by <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/jorbin\">Aaron Jorbin</a> and <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/grant