cus on. All of the development here was driven by the problems we bumped into while actually building WooCommerce for years and years.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />I want to expand on that a bit. So far, what I&#8217;m hearing is that there are two broad categories that you&#8217;re focused on. There&#8217;s the insights, which I think is a great example—being able to query against a large set of inputs and data to get insights for the end user. Then there&#8217;s also the repetitive tasks part. Those insights might lead to tasks to be done. I&#8217;m really curious about what I would describe as the opportunities categories. You alluded to it in terms of identifying potential problems and addressing those ahead of time, where the agent might be able to surface, &#8220;Hey, there&#8217;s an issue over here for you to know about.&#8221; But because WooCommerce is a subset, an ecosystem within WordPress, if someone’s in WooCommerce, there&#8217;s a lot more potential for knowing their intentions. They&#8217;re probably trying to run a business. There&#8217;s likely a commerce intention on the other side of it, whereas with WordPress, it’s a lot more generic. So I can see within the context of this product that you&#8217;re building, AgentWP, that you&#8217;re like, &#8220;Ah, it&#8217;s WooCommerce.&#8221; How do you think about the opportunities that you have—the ability to potentially surface to an end user—since there&#8217;s a lot more that you presumably could know about their intentions and the current state? Do you see that growing into things like conversion optimization or noticing, for instance, that customers are complaining about a particular thing and being able to… It’s broad, but there’s also a lot that you could know about intention and context because it’s in Woo. How do you think about that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>James:<br />Yeah, once you know that you&#8217;re in WooCommerce, there is a lot that you can really do for the user. Right now, the initial solution, the core idea here, was let&#8217;s just give AI safe access to the means and methods developers have always had. They can gather data, and then they can modify a WordPress or WooCommerce site using these APIs, queries, and all these different things. That was the core idea here. With the initial implementation of this agent, we started by saying, &#8220;Okay, let&#8217;s go and approach it from a read-only standpoint, where we can gather data and then use this data to tell users more about a site, store, or product.&#8221; That in itself is really valuable and beneficial, but our real goal here is to do both sides of the coin—do read and write—where you can surface opportunities and then the agent can take action on these opportunities for a user. In my definition, an AI agent is something that leverages its own internal models to do logic and reasoning for a user to fulfill a task autonomously. Obviously, you have to build rails and guidelines to make it safe, and you have to ensure the user actually wants these actions to happen. You also have to know how to identify this. But we want to grow this into that autonomous solution.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>When you apply something like that—just the concept, not even thinking about the actual implementations—but the concept of this AI assistant within WooCommerce, specifically with access to this data and the ability to review the data for you, then the ability to give you suggestions and fulfill those suggestions, it becomes something that can be a real power multiplier for the agency building a site and the client running the site. Like you said, you can use the statistics to do synchronous reviews of your analytics, where somebody&#8217;s actually asking for a report or something and gets a report back. But you can also asynchronously review these statistics as well and identify, &#8220;Hey, here are some trends that</p>\n\n\n\n<p>you aren&#8217;t even looking for that you should know about,&#8221; and &#8220;Here&#8217;s a product that&#8217;s not performing well.&#8221; By the way, we have this external data source that looks at the SEO for all of your products, and this one’s not really doing as well as all your other products in terms of rankings, keyword density, and all these different things. You can surface these opportunities in the read-only mode, but eventually, you can actually say, &#8220;Hey, can you just watch my products? And when a product starts falling in the Google rankings and when the Google Analytics metrics start dropping—the conversion analytics start dropping—can you take a look at this and see how you would improve it and then send me a message saying, &#8216;I&#8217;d improve it this way,&#8217; or actually just go and improve it? Go and update that description to fulfill those keyword requests or whatever the SEO optimization would be, or rewrite it to be better for conversions or whatever it is. Go and actually do this for me.&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So that&#8217;s the end goal here, where you have this system that goes through your information autonomously and really understands the purpose of your site and how your site operates in terms of, &#8220;Here are the products that this company sells, and here are the plugins that this company is using to enable subscriptions and memberships,&#8221; and all these different things. Then really use that information to create those on-demand suggestions for the user and eventually notify the user about this. The user doesn&#8217;t even have to think about, &#8220;Oh, what should I even ask this thing to do?&#8221; Eventually, if the user wants—obviously you don&#8217;t want to just have this running around willy-nilly—but if the user wants and creates these rule sets, it can go and do these optimizations, and it can eventually go and do customer support or anything like it. When you give this system access to the data and the ability to take action on that data within WooCommerce and within WordPress in general, I think it becomes a very powerful and value-added system for both the builders and the users. It&#8217;s something that I&#8217;m really excited to be building because that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re working on right now, and it&#8217;s very fun to think about these problems and how you can build for our industry.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tammie:<br />So we&#8217;ve spoken a little bit about the product and how you interact with it as a user, and we also typically like to ask how you would build here. I&#8217;d like to take a little bit of a tangent on that and say, how would you build integrating artificial intelligence into products? Because we spoke specifically about tasks and taking workflows. So we talked a little bit earlier about resetting that notion of what AI is and what it isn&#8217;t—debunking a little bit. What do you think it can solve today for product makers? How do you start using it, and how do you use it in the products that you make?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>James:<br />I&#8217;ll mention a couple of implementations that make sense and how we would go about doing it. The first thing is I don&#8217;t think if you&#8217;re a product builder, you should just go and say, &#8220;Hey, we need AI. Let&#8217;s go figure out how we can add AI to our products and have a sparkly AI button in all our tools.&#8221; I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s the case because AI, like we said in the beginning, doesn&#8217;t do everything, and it only does a few things very well. To do those few things very well, it has to be very mindfully implemented. You have to really think about how you’re going to, number one, gather the information necessary for these models to actually create something that offers the user value, instead of just garbage input, garbage output, or something that somebody sees but never actually uses. There has to be a very mindful implementation of the solution, and then there also has to be a very thoughtful way you actually implement it. So it has to offer the user value, and then you actually have to implement it so it does offer that user value.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In terms of products, I wouldn&#8217;t just completely pivot every product to say, &#8220;Oh, we must have AI now.&#8221; But I do think there are some really low-lift tasks for many plugins that can use AI in the statistics and in the generation capabilities. We actually see this with a lot of WordPress plugins nowadays. I just saw on X yesterday that Monster Insights added a Google Analytics AI chat where you can discuss your analytics. That solves a pain point. That’s something that takes data and makes it accessible to users, and it&#8217;s not this huge AI implementation where now we&#8217;re AI analytics and now we do everything, but we offer this helpful conversational interface to go and fulfill something that has been a pain point for users. GA4—nobody knows how to use this thing. It&#8217;s the most complex interface ever, so let&#8217;s go and simplify it. I think that&#8217;s a good implementation, and I think there are a lot of other products that have these pain points that could be solved with this open-ended conversational interaction with their product, but not actually going and saying, &#8220;We&#8217;re going to go make everything AI, and you&#8217;re going to have to use conversational interactions for everything. There’s not going to be a &#8216;New Product&#8217; button in WooCommerce now; it&#8217;s going to be &#8216;Make Product with AI.\'&#8221; That&#8217;s not the right way. But adding these little implementations, leveraging AI, and not going crazy and training your own models and building these data pipelines— which is something that we&#8217;re doing, but you don&#8217;t need to do that—you can use the generative AI capabilities off the shelf and build out these small implementations that solve user pain points that couldn&#8217;t necessarily be solved in another way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think another good example, not WooCommerce specific, is WSForm by Mark Westguard. It was one of the first form builders to implement anything AI-related, and it wasn&#8217;t this thing where every single input field and every single thing had this AI wizard and this &#8220;Generate with AI&#8221; button. But there was a very simple flow where, if you want to go and build out a form and you don&#8217;t know exactly what fields you want, but you know your concept—&#8221;I need this form to accept reservations for this specific restaurant&#8221;—you could type it into this natural language input box, and it would just convert that natural language into the underlying JSON structure of the form builder. Just a simple implementation, something that solves these problems, doesn&#8217;t replace the way the actual product works, but just augments it. I think there are many products in WordPress that can mindfully implement things like that, and that&#8217;s the approach I think every company should take with AI.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Just because it exists doesn&#8217;t mean you need it. There are many cases where it&#8217;s actually probably better not to have it, but there are also many cases where there are these small pain points like, &#8220;I need form inspiration,&#8221; or &#8220;I don&#8217;t know exactly what fields I should add,&#8221; or &#8220;I don&#8217;t know how to make sense of these big massive reports,&#8221; where a simple implementation that complements the existing product, instead of taking the product over, can offer people value. In terms of products, that&#8217;s the way to think about AI, especially with existing products. When it&#8217;s a new product, I think it&#8217;s a bit of a different approach, but with existing ones, you have the data, you know what your users want, and you can mindfully say, &#8220;Yeah, we should implement AI,&#8221; or &#8220;We shouldn&#8217;t implement AI.&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s one thing. The other thing is actually building the AI. With all of the solutions that I&#8217;ve talked about, off-the-shelf frontier large language models are usually all you need to add this feature, and they&#8217;re very easy to implement. But they become very difficult to implement when you try to solve these crazy, wicked use cases that are pushing the boundaries and something that somebody else hasn&#8217;t done before—something that&#8217;s not as simple as input-output. When you start getting very complex, then you have to start thinking about what else goes around the mindful implementation of AI. For us, with this agent product, we are trying to do a lot, and it&#8217;s kind of the complete opposite of what I just said with the mindful implementation of specific cases in AI for existing products. Our approach is to mindfully implement some AI capabilities with statistics and generations, and things like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But when you build a system that has a much bigger scope, there are many more edge cases, many more things that can go wrong, and there&#8217;s a lot more complexity in the underlying systems to actually enable these things. For example, navigation on WordPress, fulfilling tasks and actions for users. When you do that type of stuff, then you have to think about, &#8220;Okay, maybe we could technically build this, and maybe it&#8217;s wildly complex, but is this something that can be done safely 100% of the time? Can we catch errors before they&#8217;re introduced to a WordPress site? How do we actually steer the behavior of these models?&#8221; For us, it’s like we have to build out these humongous datasets and these massive databases, and then train the behavior into models and build out pipelines and things like that. So mindfully implementing AI and doing it in a safe, thoughtful, and effective manner, when you get complex, is another thing that you really have to consider. For the products that already exist, I really think thoughtful implementation of small AI features that are pretty simple but solve those pain points is the way to go, and from the tech side, it’s fairly easy. If you want to get crazy complex, you can probably build a really cool product out of it, but there are a lot more things that come with it in terms of being safe, being thoughtful, and doing it so your users are not negatively impacted by that implementation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tammie:<br />You&#8217;ve mentioned a couple of times the word &#8220;trust,&#8221; and I&#8217;d like to just dig into that. Sometimes AI can feel unexpected to people, and sometimes things can feel… How do you build trust into AI? Let&#8217;s take an existing product that doesn&#8217;t have AI and you want to start implementing it. You have a good reason to implement it. How do</p>\n\n\n\n<p>you look at building trust with that user base? What is your advice?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>James:<br />Wild transparency as the company. If you&#8217;re the company, you need the most transparent approach to this possible. You have to explain, &#8220;Here’s what we&#8217;re using your input to actually do, and here’s how we&#8217;re actually doing it, and here’s the additional information we&#8217;re taking from this site or this plugin, and here’s all of that data that&#8217;s going to this specific provider, and here’s our agreement with this specific provider, this data processor, and here’s how they use it. They don&#8217;t store it on their servers; we have this agreement. They&#8217;re not going to use it to train their big models.&#8221; Then when the data comes back, &#8220;Here’s how it&#8217;s used in your WordPress site, and here’s what you can expect from input to output, and there’s going to be no deviations because we&#8217;ve built these safe systems to ensure that this is what happens with this user input and with this data.&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I think on the smallest scale and the biggest scale, being really upfront about how data is used, and then how the actual interaction with this AI will be used is really important. Also explaining—because for 99% of these implementations, it&#8217;s using a big AI provider like Google, OpenAI, Anthropic, or any one of these—explaining, &#8220;Here are the actual processors, and we have this enterprise agreement with OpenAI, so they&#8217;re not going to use data to train and they don&#8217;t retain this, and here are all of these policies.&#8221; I actually really like the… I don&#8217;t know if it’s true regulation around this, but the aspect of always being upfront with your data subprocessors, and actually taking that step further and explaining, &#8220;Here’s how the data is gathered, here’s how it&#8217;s used, here are the structures, and here are the pipelines.&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For us with the agent product, that’s something that when we launch, it&#8217;s going to be very clear: &#8220;Here’s the data that&#8217;s used. Here are the processors that are using this data, here’s what comes back, here’s what’s expected.&#8221; For us, it&#8217;s a bit more open-ended, so there’s a lot of user consent during interactions with our product—actually being asked, &#8220;Hey, we&#8217;re going to take this action. Do you want to take this action? Here’s what this action will do. Here’s how we got to actually creating this action.&#8221; For statistics, &#8220;Here’s the exact query we ran.&#8221; So if you want, you can go and get the data yourself and verify this, and give users the tools and essentially the transparency behind anything in AI. I think that’s the way you build trust. Also, build systems so you don’t make massive mistakes. There’s never an opportunity for a system to… I don’t think any system’s ever going to go haywire and say, &#8220;I don’t like this WooCommerce site; I’m going to completely rewrite it.&#8221; But I think there are cases where the AI can get misaligned, and it can go and take the wrong action, which could be destructive to a site. So building systems to catch some issue before it ever happens, having the user consent so they know what’s happening, know what’s gone into this action and what this action will actually do, and worst case, if a negative action actually happens, having rollbacks, having backups, having easy ways to undo something that was autonomously or synchronously taken by a system, that’s another really important thing. So I think transparency and then actually thinking about real users who are going to use this, so we have to build these systems that don’t just go and do it 95% accurately, but also cover the other 5%, which will come from AI, but make sure we handle it gracefully and properly to create a really good product that people do trust.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>&#8220;I know AgentWP&#8221; or &#8220;I know this statistics solution,&#8221; or &#8220;I know this form builder does exactly this with exactly this data, with exactly these processors.&#8221; In the form of some input-output, &#8220;Here’s the source of that output,&#8221; and in the form of actions, &#8220;Here’s the action that’s going to be taken, here’s why it’s going to be taken, here’s what it will result in.&#8221; Worst case, we have robust rollback tools to go and undo something if it wasn’t what you really wanted. That’s the approach, I think, for any AI product. Just be upfront; don’t just add some AI bubble and don’t tell users what data you’re taking or start taking users’ data without their consent. Just be mindful and be an ethical product creator. I think that the trust should naturally come because you deserve that trust because you’re somebody that does it properly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />Yeah, you put in the work for it. James, you&#8217;ve got an interesting background. You started out with the agency, you’ve also been in the venture-backed startup. With WPAI, you&#8217;ve also raised money, and you&#8217;re raising more. What I&#8217;m curious about is that the venture-backed startup was outside of the WordPress space. You came back into WordPress; you gave us some sort of clues already for that, but I&#8217;d love to hear your thoughts on what, for you as an entrepreneur and for other builders listening in the space, what&#8217;s some of the value that you see in the WordPress ecosystem? Because there&#8217;s a lot of risk with starting a business. There’s a lot that goes into it. You and the team have been putting a bunch of work into this. Where does your confidence come from that investing into the WordPress WooCommerce space makes sense? Why do you stay in this ecosystem?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>James:<br />Yeah, I grew up in this ecosystem, so I know how big it is, and I know how far-reaching it is. When I speak with other founders, investors, and people in the startup world—and we truly are a startup, I think in the truest sense of the word startup, we’re an early-stage company that’s really pushing the boundaries in our industry with new technology—when I speak with other people in similar positions in different industries, they sometimes know what WordPress is. Sometimes they don’t even know what it is, and when they do know what it is, they don’t realize the extent of the industry. Being able to grow up in WordPress and realize, &#8220;Hey, we’ve done projects that are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and have done hundreds of millions of dollars of sales through them,&#8221; you really understand from the ground floor how big the economic impact of WordPress and WooCommerce is. Then when you look at, &#8220;Oh, WordPress powers half the internet, and the nearest competitor is this massive multi-billion dollar public company that has only a few percentage points of the industry,&#8221; it’s really one of those industries that I don’t think many people realize how big it is. I think you kind of have to start from within WordPress to even understand how big it is. Once you understand how big it is, there’s so much opportunity to disrupt WordPress in a positive way and bring these modern technologies and solutions from the startup landscape into WordPress to really offer valuable products to the biggest cohort of internet creators in the entire world.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So for me as a founder, it was always very clear that this is an industry that’s really big. It’s always going to be underserved. It’s always going to be something that I think if you want to build a really disruptive and valuable product, you can, but you have to know the industry to be able to do that. You have to understand the pain points behind what goes into building sites and using WordPress. Just be from it. That’s what brought me back to WordPress because I saw and I had the opportunity to go really do whatever I wanted and build whatever product I wanted and serve whatever industry I wanted. I had the opportunity to say, &#8220;Hey, I think that this AI stuff will be very valuable in the near and long-term future. I can see in my brain exactly how this thing can be implemented on both a small scale but also a really big scale in WordPress, in WooCommerce, in these ecosystems, so I’m going to go and do it.&#8221; That was my approach there, and that’s why I got back into the WordPress industry. But I think it’s just really understated how big this industry is and how much capital moves around in WordPress and is connected to WordPress. When you look at the competition, it’s much more flashy and snazzy, and that’s why everybody goes down that route. But it’s not as big as WordPress, and it’s not as economically impactful as WordPress. There are true needs here, and if you can identify those needs and ideally build a valuable product that serves those needs—in our case, that’s trying to solve a lot of the pain points with AI specifically—I think you can build an unbelievably valuable company in this industry.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />James, if someone is looking to come into this space, maybe they see this opportunity, but they don’t have that background, what’s one piece of guidance that you’d give to an entrepreneur? Let’s say they want to build a WooCommerce-centric product. What guidance would you give them?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>James:<br />If you’re from the industry or if you’re not from the industry, I think the only way to build any product—and it gets even more important with WooCommerce and WordPress—is to talk to the people who will buy the product. That’s something that a lot of founders don’t do, where they just have a cool idea and go build it and hope for the best. But specifically with WooCommerce, you can find a WooCommerce store, you can find the people who built that store, you can find the people who run that store, and you can just go to them and send them an email and say, &#8220;Hey, give me five minutes of your time, please. I really want to talk about</p>\n\n\n\n<p>this potential problem that you very likely have that’s probably costing you a lot of time and a lot of gray hair, and I’m trying to build something to solve it. If I solve it, you’re going to benefit from it, so please talk to me.&#8221; People will speak with you, and they will spill all of their problems. Specifically with WooCommerce, I see because it’s a very scoped ecosystem, you could build anything, but it’s pretty scoped. People all have the same problems, and they all bump into the same problems doing the same things, and that’s where you can build valuable products—you can solve those problems. Those problems are surfaced by speaking with people. That goes for any company, but I think WooCommerce and WordPress specifically—so many people use it. They spend 12 hours a day using these products, building for them, using them as the end users, and they all have the same problems. They’ll all tell you the problems because they want you to solve them. It’s very approachable to go and figure out, &#8220;Okay, these hundred WooCommerce sites exist, and I’m just going to go email their contact email and say, &#8216;I’m building this product, and it might help you. Give me five minutes.\'&#8221; A lot of people will, and you’ll also get nos, but that’s part of the process of building a company.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So speak with people who actually want to use your products, and you’ll find these common threads, and you’ll find where you could build valuable tools, and then you go and do it. Then you go right back to them and say, &#8220;Hey, remember that thing that you said cost you $5,000 a month? I just built something, and it will fix that for you, and there’s your value.&#8221; That’s been my approach with any product, and specifically with the AgentWP product. What are specific areas that we can solve with this type of interface, and how can we do it in a way that’s valuable for you? We find these really common pain points that can be solved in this specific way, and then we build for it. Ideally, we’ll be able to launch the core product that solves a lot of these problems and then continue to, one after another, cross off problems from this list and offer the solution for it. But the only way we know these problems is by talking with these people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tammie:<br />As we wrap, I want us to move a little bit to the future. We can move as far ahead into the future as you want to, but where do you see all these advances with artificial intelligence going in the future? What are the possibilities you see, or hope for even?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>James:<br />Yeah, I hope that AI makes human creativity more valuable. I think we’ve already kind of seen that. I remember back in 2022 when the first AI craze was really popping up. It was something that everybody was horrified that it was going to replace art and replace human thought and all these different things. Obviously, I think there are risks there, but I also think that it’s serving to make the human aspect of creating a lot more important. So I think there will be disruption, and I think that we really have to… You can’t just stick your head into a hole and pretend and hope that it all goes away. I think things will change, but I think ideally, my vision for the future and the products that we’re building are products that enable the meaningful part of that work to be automated away and then really make the human aspect of it—specifically for me, like in agency and building WooCommerce stores—the things I loved were thinking about how we could design things and create these brands and this copy and these various elements of your store to make it convert for the users. So I hope that type of human interaction and the consulting, strategic, and thought parts really shine with AI and aren’t replaced. I think that is something that I’m already seeing a lot of people kind of going like, &#8220;Hey, AI is great, but it’s not a good artist, and it’s not a good copywriter. If you have 20 AI sites that all have the same copy, it all reads the same, it’s all the same mush.&#8221; I do hope and think that AI will surface the need for that human level of creativity and human level of interaction in web design and creation, but in everything, I think in every industry.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So that’s my hope for the future, and I do think that’s something that will be the case. I’m always a glass-half-full person, but I do think that’s something that will be the case. For us in WordPress, we’re trying to build those products that do make it easier for the builders of the sites to build the sites and to focus on the fun things, and to leverage these tools to better support their clients and to have their clients use these tools to get rid of those annoying 2 a.m. &#8220;make the logo bigger&#8221; requests. That’s our approach with everything, and I think in the future, you can’t just expect AI to disappear because I think it is a disruptor and I think it will change a lot of different things. But I also think that it’s a lot brighter future with AI tools and with these platforms to allow you as the creator to really focus on the creation and the architecture of a specific functionality or change, and the copy, branding, and human illustrations. I think that’s something that will be really important in the future. That’s what we’re trying to build towards. That’s what I’m hoping for in the future. That’s what I’m seeing early whispers of online and in digital media. &#8220;Hey, AI is good, but it spits out the same meaningless mush, so let’s not use it for that. Let’s use it to get rid of the annoying stuff and then focus on the fun stuff.&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tammie:<br />You touched a little bit on fears, but you also mentioned your glass is half-full. So what are your biggest fears for open source and WordPress through the lens of AI?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>James:<br />I think if you really want to take the horrifying view, you can see a future where a lot of creativity is just sapped away and replaced with meaningless mush sites, meaningless nonsense garbage content creation, and AI images that are all uncanny and look the same. I think that could happen if we allow it, but luckily I think the WordPress industry is kind of taking the charge on this with Matt’s focus on, &#8220;Hey, a WordPress site, an individual’s website, could become that individual&#8217;s expression of themselves online.&#8221; Especially in the future, it could become what it was like back in the day when a personal website was a way to express oneself. I think that’s something that it could grow back into. But I do think as an industry, we really have to be thoughtful and considerate of, &#8220;Hey, we don’t want mushy AI sites and mushy content and mushy images, where we can’t understand what’s human and what’s AI creations in the future.&#8221; I think the easy way to fix that is to just say, &#8220;Hey, let’s not do that. Let’s build products that enable us rather than replace us, and let’s go and really create meaningful human-like interactions online to show, &#8216;Here’s why you actually want this. Here’s an AI site, and here’s my site, and my site’s a million times better than this AI site.\'&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That’s my approach, and I know I flipped it again into that glass-half-full approach, but that’s really something I think you have to do. You have to be excited about the future because it’s coming, and if you’re not excited about it and you just try to sit it out and pretend it’s all going to go away, it’s going to run you over, and it’s probably going to create the future that you don’t want. So for me, it’s like, &#8220;Hey, let’s build these products that do the things that we do want them to do and enable the things that we do want to be enabled, rather than let somebody else build a product that replaces me, or let somebody else build a website that is this mushy site when it could have been this human site, and now these clients don’t realize the value of what I could do.&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I think you have to be mindful about what could happen, but I already see a lot in the Facebook groups, on Twitter, and in the social ecosystem of WordPress. I think people are really mindful of that, and if we try to build the future we want, it will likely be the future that we want. So I’m glad that’s already happening, and I think that will continue to happen into the future. Obviously, I’ll try to be one of the leaders in the WordPress space to go and build that future that we all want and build the tools that are valuable and helpful to everybody, not replacements or anything like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />James, I appreciate the care that you and the team have been putting into just thinking through things. There’s a lot that goes on behind the scenes. I know that’s something I’ve appreciated as I’ve been following along with what you’ve been doing. There’s a lot that goes into it to create those rails, to think about trust and safety, and I appreciate that. I’m looking forward to seeing how the next couple of months and years pan out. It’s great to have you in the ecosystem. You’re going to be at WordCamp US with us all in not too many weeks from now. If someone wants to reach out, how can people best get in contact with you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>James:<br />Yeah, if you want to reach out, I would actually love to meet people in person at WordCamp. I always see people online, and it’s really fun to meet people in person. So</p>\n\n\n\n<p>find me on Twitter/X at @JamesWLaPage. You can send me a DM; the DMs are open. At WordCamp US and at any of the other events we go to—because we go to a lot of them now—if you see a tall, skinny dude wearing a WPAI hat, it is likely me, so come and approach me. I absolutely love being approached and just speaking with people and saying hello, so do that as well. But for any questions, ideas, partnerships, whatever, feel free to DM me on X. I’m always receptive there and would love to take the conversation a bit further. That’s what I do. I talk about AI, and I talk about WordPress. So love doing that. Don’t hesitate to DM me or say hello in person. I love seeing people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jonathan:<br />Excellent. Thank you, James. Talk to you soon.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tammie:<br />Thank you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>James:<br />Thank you.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode of <strong><em>Woo ProductChat</em></strong>, hosts <strong>Jonathan Wold</strong> and T<strong>ammie Lister</strong> are joined by <strong>James LePage, founder of WPAI</strong>, to chat about the intersection of AI, eCommerce, and WooCommerce. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>James shares his journey from running a WordPress agency to focusing on AI-driven products, highlighting the challenges and opportunities AI presents in the WooCommerce space. He emphasizes the importance of mindful AI implementation to enhance, rather than replace, human creativity and tasks. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>The conversation also touches on the future of AI in WordPress, the need for transparency and trust in AI tools, and the potential for AI to streamline processes while preserving the value of human input in web development and eCommerce.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Takeaways</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Balancing Service and Product</strong>: James LePage transitioned from running a WordPress agency to developing AI-driven products, motivated by the desire to focus on building tools rather than managing client relationships.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>AI’s Role in WooCommerce</strong>: AI can significantly enhance the WooCommerce experience by automating repetitive tasks, providing valuable insights, and improving site performance, but it should be implemented thoughtfully to ensure it complements human creativity and decision-making.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Mindful AI Implementation</strong>: The success of AI in WordPress products depends on careful, transparent implementation that addresses specific pain points without overwhelming or replacing the user’s role. Trust is built through clear communication about how AI processes data and interacts with sites.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Opportunities in WooCommerce</strong>: AI has the potential to identify trends, optimize conversions, and offer proactive solutions within WooCommerce sites, making it a powerful tool for both developers and business owners.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>The Future of AI in WordPress</strong>: James envisions a future where AI tools enable creators to focus on meaningful, creative work by automating the less enjoyable tasks. However, there’s a need to avoid a future dominated by generic, AI-generated content that lacks human touch.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Transparency and Trust in AI</strong>: Building user trust in AI tools requires transparency about how data is used and processed, along with safeguards to ensure AI actions are safe and reversible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>The Value of the WordPress Ecosystem</strong>: Despite the risks of starting a business, the vast and economically impactful WordPress ecosystem offers significant opportunities for building valuable products that address real user needs.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Links</h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameswlepage/\">James on LinkedIn</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://x.com/jameswlepage\">James on X</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://wpai.co/\">WPAI.co</a></strong></li>\n</ul>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 20 Aug 2024 09:06:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:10;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:54:\"Gary: Four Thousand, Five Hundred and Forty-Eight Days\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:25:\"https://pento.net/?p=5579\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:77:\"https://pento.net/2024/08/20/four-thousand-five-hundred-and-forty-eight-days/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:2861:\"<p>Nearly 15 years ago, I emailed the 20-something-year-old founder of <a href=\"https://automattic.com/\">a little tech startup with a weird name</a>. As I recall, there were maybe 20 or so people doing WordPress-y things there at the time. I started doing a bit of contract work (the hiring process wasn’t as organised back then as it is today!) and, a couple of years after that, signed up full time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Over 12 years later, that weird little startup has grown into a big company. It does a whole lot more than just WordPress, and it&#8217;s been a spectacular ride to get here. I&#8217;ve seen tiny little experiments and hacks grow up to be hugely popular products; I&#8217;ve worked with some of the smartest and most talented people I’ve ever met; and I even got to help lead WordPress development for a while.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Along the way, I&#8217;ve travelled around the world multiple times, meeting thousands of folks in the WordPress community, in countless cities. We’ve built stuff together that’s been used by hundreds of millions of people and viewed by billions!</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Over the years, there are very few parts of Automattic that I hadn’t at least dipped my toes into. I&#8217;m extremely proud of everything I accomplished there, but it also gave me the sense that I’d finally reached the end of what there was for me to work on there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so, a few months ago, I decided it was time for me to go exploring for new challenges. I finished up and have since been enjoying some time off, barely touching my computer. I&#8217;ve done a bit of gardening, ticked a lot of things off my to-do list around the house, and I&#8217;ve been truly able to relax for a good while.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What&#8217;s Next?</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Now, though, I&#8217;m refreshed and ready to set off on my next adventure. This is where you come in, dear reader! Perhaps you&#8217;re looking for a tech lead to help scale your startup. Maybe you&#8217;re looking for someone with extensive experience not just with WordPress, but with the entire WordPress ecosystem and community. You could be a larger company looking for a principal engineer to inspire cross-divisional collaboration, or tackle the technical debt that inevitably builds up over the years. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Those aren&#8217;t the only options, of course, but maybe they give you an idea of where I can help. If you have a role you think I&#8217;d be the perfect fit for, let&#8217;s chat about it! You can reach out to me on <a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-pendergast/\">LinkedIn</a>, or email me directly at gary@pento.net.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Finally, if you happen to work at a company that you think I should join, let me know in the comments, or drop me a message. I&#8217;m always interested in learning more about what it&#8217;s like to work for your company!</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 20 Aug 2024 05:50:54 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Gary\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:11;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:57:\"WPTavern: Critical Vulnerability Patched in GiveWP Plugin\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:30:\"https://wptavern.com/?p=159586\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:68:\"https://wptavern.com/critical-vulnerability-patched-in-givewp-plugin\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1745:\"<p>GiveWP, a popular donation plugin for WordPress, has patched an unauthenticated PHP Object Injection to Remote Code Execution vulnerability that could be exploited to execute arbitrary code remotely and delete files. This plugin from the Liquid Web family of products has 100k+ active installs.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>villu164 (Villu Orav) reported the vulnerability through the Wordfence Bug Bounty Program and netted a bounty of $4,998.00. The researchers have classified it as a <strong>“Critical” concern, with a CVSS score of 10.0</strong>, and strongly recommend updating to the latest version.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Wordfence shared that the GiveWP plugin is “vulnerable to PHP Object Injection in all versions up to, and including, 3.14.1 via deserialization of untrusted input from the ‘give_title’ parameter. This makes it possible for unauthenticated attackers to inject a PHP Object. The additional presence of a POP chain allows attackers to execute code remotely, and to delete arbitrary files.”&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The vulnerability researcher <a href=\"https://www.wordfence.com/blog/2024/08/4998-bounty-awarded-and-100000-wordpress-sites-protected-against-unauthenticated-remote-code-execution-vulnerability-patched-in-givewp-wordpress-plugin/\">István Márton’s post</a> has more technical details about GiveWP’s vulnerability. Wordfence contacted StellarWP and later WordPress.org Security Team and finally, a patch was released in version 3.14.2 of the GiveWP plugin on August 7, 2024.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Wordfence launched the <a href=\"https://wptavern.com/wordfence-launches-bug-bounty-program\">Bug Bounty Program</a> in November 2023 to reward researchers for finding vulnerabilities and disclosing them privately.&nbsp;</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Mon, 19 Aug 2024 19:34:01 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:7:\"Jyolsna\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:12;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:17:\"Matt: Jeff Jarvis\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:23:\"https://ma.tt/?p=123390\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:34:\"https://ma.tt/2024/08/jeff-jarvis/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1306:\"<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>We no longer need companies, institutions, or government to organize us. We now have the tools to organize ourselves. We can find each other and coalesce around political causes or bad companies or talent or business or ideas. We can share and sort our knowledge and behavior. We can communicate and come together in an instant. We also have new ethics and attitudes that spring from this new organization and change society in ways we cannot yet see, with openness, generosity, collaboration, efficiency. We are using the internet’s connective tissue to leap over borders—whether they surround countries or companies or demographics. We are reorganizing society. This is Google’s—and Facebook’s and craigslist’s—new world order.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>— <a href=\"https://buzzmachine.com/\">Jeff Jarvis</a> in the book <a href=\"https://www.amazon.com/WHAT-WOULD-GOOGLE-Jeff-Jarvis/dp/0061709697\">What Would Google Do?</a> Published 2009.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Interesting to revisit as <a href=\"https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-08-13/doj-considers-seeking-google-goog-breakup-after-major-antitrust-win\">they float trial balloons on breaking Google up</a> (terrible idea) or other antitrust enforcement.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Mon, 19 Aug 2024 14:00:46 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4:\"Matt\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:13;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:62:\"WPTavern: Meet WordPress 6.7 Release Squad &amp; Default Theme\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:30:\"https://wptavern.com/?p=159551\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:67:\"https://wptavern.com/meet-wordpress-6-7-release-squad-default-theme\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:6390:\"<p>Last week, the lineup for the eighteen-member <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/08/14/wordpress-6-7-release-squad-ready/\">release squad</a> and the default theme for WordPress 6.7 were revealed. This will be the third and final WordPress release of the year.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">WordPress 6.7 Release Squad</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>As usual, Matt Mullenweg leads the release, with <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/davidbaumwald/\">David Baumwald</a> serving as the Release Coordinator. The Core Tech Leads are <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/peterwilsoncc/\">Peter Wilson</a> (sponsored by 10up) and&nbsp; <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kirasong/\">Kira Schroder</a> (sponsored by GoDaddy). The squad also includes:</p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Editor Tech Leads: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/noisysocks/\">Robert Anderson</a>, <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/kevin940726/\">Kai Hao</a> (Both from Automattic)</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Core Triage Leads: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/chaion07/\">Ahmed Kabir Chaion</a>, (Zone7) <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/stoyangeorgiev/\">Stoyan Georgiev</a> (SiteGround)</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Editor Triage Leads: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ndiego/\">Nick Diego</a> (Automattic), <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/colorful-tones/\">Damon Cook</a> (WP Engine)</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Documentation Leads: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/fabiankaegy/\">Fabian Kägy</a> (10up), <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/faguni22/\">Mumtahina Faguni</a> (WPDeveloper)</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Test Lead: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/ankit-k-gupta/\">Ankit K. Gupta</a> (10up)</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Design Lead: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/joen/\">Joen Asmussen</a> (Automattic)</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Performance Lead: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/mukesh27/\">Mukesh Panchal</a> (10up)</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Default Theme Design Lead: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/beafialho/\">Beatriz Fialho</a> (Automattic)</li>\n\n\n\n<li>Default Theme Development Leads: <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/poena/\">Carolina Nymark</a> (Yoast), <a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/juanfra/\">Juan Aldasoro</a> </li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>Automattic is sponsoring five squad members (excluding Matt), with 10up following closely behind with four members.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Automattic-sponsored Core contributor Héctor Prieto shared that the team is experimenting with combining the Marcomms and Release Coordination roles but may revert this change during the process, depending upon the feedback. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>He continued: “While announcing the whole release squad is ideal, at the end of the day, it involves a lot of async coordination that delays the announcement. Feedback received indicates this is particularly constraining for the Default Theme Role, for which the leads had to start the work before this announcement to avoid getting caught by the release deadlines.”</p>\n\n\n\n<p>To address this, he suggested two solutions: providing weekly updates on the release squad and making an early call for volunteers for the default theme separate from the release squad.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Introducing Twenty Twenty-Five</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>The default theme for WordPress 6.7 will be <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/08/15/introducing-twenty-twenty-five/\">Twenty Twenty-Five</a>. In the words of the Theme Design Lead Beatriz Fialho, “Twenty Twenty-Five embodies ultimate flexibility and adaptability, showcasing the many ways WordPress enables people to tell their stories with many patterns and styles to choose from. The glimpses of natural beauty and ancestry woven into the theme evoke ideas of impermanence, the passage of time, and continuous evolution.”</p>\n\n\n\n<p>When WordPress turned 21 in May, <a href=\"https://ma.tt/2024/05/wp21/\">Matt Mullenweg</a> shared eleven points for building WordPress with the first point being, &#8220;Simple things should be easy and intuitive, and complex things possible.&#8221; The design team is building the default theme based on this principle.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Like its predecessor, <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2023/08/24/introducing-twenty-twenty-four/\">Twenty Twenty-Four</a>, Twenty Twenty-Five will also be fully compatible with the Site Editor and will utilize the new design tools, such as the Grid block and Pattern/Section Styles. The theme includes templates for personal blogs, photo blogs and complex blogs. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>“The demo content imagery, all from the Public Domain, carries a poetic, universal, and ubiquitous tone that complements the core concept. There was an opportunity to visually lean into a positive tone to bring softness, lightness, and inspiration through its aesthetic.” Beatriz Fialho continued. She also shared the <a href=\"https://www.figma.com/design/dzGCSntVch4EQdVERTqyVK/Twenty-Twenty-Five?node-id=16-14852\">Figma designs</a> for the theme.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Recognizing the theme&#8217;s global audience, the design team prioritized high-quality fonts that support multiple languages and included a set of diverse color palettes as style variations to offer more customization options. The theme also features a broad range of patterns.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Those interested can follow the theme&#8217;s development on the <a href=\"https://github.com/wordpress/twentytwentyfive\">Twenty Twenty-Five GitHub repository</a> or join the weekly <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/contribute/join/\">Slack</a> meetings in <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/tag/core-themes/\">#core-themes</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The community&#8217;s responses included “It looks so beautiful,” “Absolutely beautiful work,” and “The next best default WordPress theme.” Some wondered why WordPress chooses a new default theme every year instead of improving the existing one. If you, too, are wondering the same, Knut Sparhell elaborated: “The latest default theme has always strived to use, and demonstrate the use of, the latest core features. Earlier themes can not just be updated with everything, as they should continue to work even with older core versions. This could be solved by upgrade requirements for the WP version, but then those left out would not get security and bug fixes, and some minor enhancements. One can look at the yearly new default block theme as an upgrade to the previous.”</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Mon, 19 Aug 2024 05:10:58 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:7:\"Jyolsna\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:14;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:75:\"WPTavern: Wordfence Launches WordPress Superhero Challenge with Big Rewards\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:30:\"https://wptavern.com/?p=159393\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:86:\"https://wptavern.com/wordfence-launches-wordpress-superhero-challenge-with-big-rewards\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:3697:\"<p>Wordfence has introduced an exciting new initiative, the <a href=\"https://www.wordfence.com/blog/2024/08/earn-up-to-31200-per-vulnerability-introducing-the-wordpress-bug-bounty-superhero-challenge/\">WordPress Superhero Challenge</a>, as part of its ongoing Bug Bounty Program. Running until October 14th, this challenge exclusively targets plugins and themes with over 5 million active installations, a category that demands a high level of expertise due to the extensive testing these products undergo before reaching production.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Chloe Chamberland, the Threat Intelligence Lead at Wordfence, explained, “By running this challenge, we want to supercharge the amount of research going into these extremely popular products, thereby improving the security of hundreds of millions of visitors to sites with these products installed.”&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Wordfence is tripling the current top bounty amounts, with the top bounty prize being an impressive $31,200. “By funding more vulnerability research than any other organization and releasing vulnerabilities to the community in a timely fashion, we further our mission of securing the Web.”, said Chloe.</p>\n\n\n\n<img src=\"https://lh7-rt.googleusercontent.com/docsz/AD_4nXcpNyO_wrF8VgqY6bSumu31LKSjNHkIaqLQCNLioqreZIaQtm0sDr8PuOkHTXIkYwG427JYJyKoMz-VDMJ34c8rKgWpIHaeOSVyDlsvVGiPs3lPNvqed6JPTOxazxUlyUIReyRDwJCbfLUPYFmu_8dZbp8?key=hwib0ae8-8CpASIHsEFLEQ\" alt=\"List of some bounty reward possibilities during the Superhero Challenge\" /><strong>List of some bounty reward possibilities during the Superhero Challenge</strong>\n\n\n\n<p>Besides the bounty prize, researchers who discover and report critical or high-severity vulnerabilities in plugins or themes with 5 million+ active installs will be awarded a special &#8220;WordPress Superhero&#8221; badge, marking their exceptional contribution to WordPress security. The repository has <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/browse/popular/\">10 plugins</a> with over five million active installations but no themes.  </p>\n\n\n\n<p>The bug bounty program excludes products of some companies, such as Google, Brainstorm Force, Automattic, and Siteground, as they have their own reward programs in place. The <a href=\"https://www.wordfence.com/threat-intel/bug-bounty-program/\">Wordfence website</a> has more details about the program guidelines. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Wordfence launched the <a href=\"https://wptavern.com/wordfence-launches-bug-bounty-program\">Bug Bounty Program</a> in November 2023 to reward researchers for finding vulnerabilities and disclosing them privately. The company rewards the researchers based on active install counts, the criticality of the vulnerability, the ease of exploitation, and the prevalence of the vulnerability type and has spent over $300,000 in bounties since 2023.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>WordPress, with its impressive market share of over 43% of the internet, needs researchers to make it secure. Last month, Patchstack, another popular web security name, launched <a href=\"https://patchstack.com/academy/welcome/\">Patchstack Academy</a> and doubled its monthly <a href=\"https://patchstack.com/articles/biggest-wordpress-bug-bounty-program-upgrade-is-here/\">competition bounties</a>. Their Zeroday program now offers researchers bounties ranging from $150 to $14,400, depending on the access level required to exploit the reported vulnerability. Reporting vulnerabilities in plugins/themes with over 5 million installs will net researchers a bounty of $7,200 or $14,400.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>With the world facing several security nightmares recently, including the Cloudstrike fiasco, it is great to see security being given more attention in the WordPress community.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Fri, 16 Aug 2024 09:12:36 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:7:\"Jyolsna\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:15;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:65:\"WPTavern: Gutenberg 19.0 Introduces Two New Experimental Features\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:30:\"https://wptavern.com/?p=159341\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:76:\"https://wptavern.com/gutenberg-19-0-introduces-two-new-experimental-features\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:1982:\"<p>Gutenberg 19.0 has <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/08/14/whats-new-in-gutenberg-19-0-14-august/\">arrived</a> with two exciting experimental features, along with various feature enhancements and bug fixes. The Gutenberg team is actively seeking user feedback on these experimental additions.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The first experimental feature is the highly anticipated UI prototype for connecting blocks and custom fields. To try it out, you can enable the “UI to create block bindings” experiment by navigating to Gutenberg &gt; Experiments. Automattician Jorge Costa, sponsored by Automattic, has shared a video in the release post that explains this feature in detail.</p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<p>The second experimental feature in Gutenberg 19.0 is the Quick Edit functionality within the new Pages interface. Built using Data Views, this feature supports bulk editing, allowing users to make quick adjustments to multiple fields without leaving the Pages interface.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Both these features are available under the new <a href=\"https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/pull/64121\">experimental blocks flag</a> and can be accessed from Gutenberg &gt; Experiments in the WordPress dashboard.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This release also brings a more intuitive user interface for configuring views such as pages, templates, and patterns. Users can now decide if filters should be displayed by default or hidden, and they can easily add them back with a click.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Other notable features include a zoomed-out view alongside the device preview options, multiple writing flow enhancements, improved zoom transition between devices, and a new “send” icon. Gutenberg 19.0 also fixes a layout issue in the document bar, adds react peer dependency to the <code>@wordpress/primitives</code> package, and increases the minimum required WordPress version to 6.5.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jorge Costa&#8217;s release post gives the full list of bug fixes, enhancements, and other improvements in this release.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Thu, 15 Aug 2024 13:19:57 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:7:\"Jyolsna\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:16;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:78:\"Do The Woo Community: Balancing Careers and Agency Evolution with Joe Riviello\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=85146\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:77:\"https://dothewoo.io/balancing-careers-and-agency-evolution-with-joe-riviello/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:32599:\"<div class=\"wp-block-group has-border-color has-light-gray-background-color has-background has-small-font-size has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-17 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p class=\"has-secondary-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-9acf640b7ba38a84a982fc35d618387f\">This show is sponsored by&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-vertical is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-16 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-4 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-15 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-base-background-color has-background wp-container-content-7 has-global-padding is-content-justification-left is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-14 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<img width=\"600\" height=\"600\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/dothewoo.io/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/GoDaddy-square.png?resize=600%2C600&ssl=1\" alt=\"GoDaddy\" class=\"wp-image-75131\" />\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-container-content-8\"> <strong><a href=\"https://godaddy.com\">GoDaddy</a></strong>: Build your clients sites using the flexibility of a <strong>Managed WooCommerce Store from GoDaddy</strong>. If you clients are looking to expand their store, you can deliver them a fully-customized WooCommerce site.</p>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\nEpisode Transcript\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p>Here’s the transcript with corrections:</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\" />\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />Hello and welcome to Do the Woo. I&#8217;m here today, Robbie Adair, to do an episode of the Woo Agency Chat. I&#8217;ve got Robert here with me, my fellow co-host. Robert, how are things going on your side of the world?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />It&#8217;s August, and it should be so nice and quiet and peaceful, but I think everyone is still running around at a thousand miles an hour. We&#8217;ve got WordCamp US coming up, just in about four weeks. I know plenty of folks are busy with that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />Oh my goodness, I didn&#8217;t realize how close it is. Yes, I think I&#8217;ve got like four trips before that, but yay, WordCamp US!</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />Maybe you can get out to Scranton.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />That&#8217;s right. So yeah, today we have Zen Agency with us, Joe Riviello. See, I told you I was going to mess it up, Joe. I knew it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />Joe Riviello.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />Yeah, so we were actually chatting with Joe before we started our show today, and we&#8217;ve got an interesting one here for you guys because Joe works on people&#8217;s hearts in the morning and then their websites in the afternoon. I love it. Joe, tell us about Zen Agency and how you got started in this when you were a heart surgeon.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />Yep. So it actually started back in the nineties. I was in cardiovascular perfusion school at Hahnemann University, which is in Philadelphia, and my background is in cardiovascular perfusion. What that means is we operate the heart-lung machine during open heart surgery. I still do that today. I run the agency, and I&#8217;m in surgery in the mornings. By the afternoon, I&#8217;m running my agency. So anyway, the way it all came about, my grandfather, back in the nineties, had open heart surgery, and we were in Scranton, Pennsylvania. Back then, if you needed open heart surgery, you didn&#8217;t get it in Scranton, Pennsylvania; you went to Philadelphia for surgery. So he was in Philadelphia at Hahnemann, and I went to visit him. I was really undecided about what I wanted to do with my life at that time. So I visited him, and I was sitting bedside with him, and this was about 1993-ish.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>There was a catalog sitting next to him, and it was a catalog from the school, open to the cardiovascular perfusion technology program at Hahnemann University. So I looked into it and thought, &#8220;Well, this looks really interesting.&#8221; I was kind of techy back then, as techy as you could be because we weren&#8217;t really in a technological revolution yet. But anyway, I got into perfusion school, and during that time, one of my classmates had a Jeep, and he was selling it. This was when Amazon and E-Trade were just starting because we were looking at penny stocks and stuff with those. But anyway, he wanted to sell his Jeep, and I said, &#8220;You know what? Let&#8217;s try to build a website and raffle the Jeep off.&#8221; Well, little did I realize back then that raffling a Jeep off online is essentially gambling, which is illegal.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we nixed that idea when we found out the legalities of it. But that kind of got me digging into the whole web design thing because we were trying to make a webpage back then. This was towards the late nineties when I was in school. So anyway, I graduated from perfusion school and took my first job in Las Vegas. I drove out to Las Vegas and got hired by a great company back then, and they were building an intranet and were looking for volunteers to help build it. I could not build an intranet; I was more like a static webpage Dreamweaver type of guy back then. So I raised my hand and said, &#8220;Yeah, I can do that.&#8221; So I got involved in that, and I was part of that process. Then that led to some of my friends forming a company because one of my friends was a casino host in Las Vegas, and I started a company called OwnYourOwnCasino.com, and we linked up with another company that was basically an affiliate type of thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Anyway, that went nowhere. A few years later, I moved back to Scranton, Pennsylvania. There was an opening at the local hospital here, which I took, and I wanted something more. I wanted to be more of an entrepreneur than an employee, so I was kind of using that as my stepping stone. I got involved with one of my good friends who&#8217;s a real estate developer and owns several businesses in our area. He said, &#8220;You&#8217;re really into this whole tech thing with the web design and everything. Why don&#8217;t you just get that started, and I&#8217;ll give you a couple of my companies to build websites for?&#8221; So I did that, and it was kind of like a hobby back then, and it remained a hobby for several years. Then I opened a cafe, and maybe a year went by after the cafe failed miserably, and I thought, &#8220;I have to do something else. I want to do something else other than just cardiovascular perfusion.&#8221; Not that it&#8217;s not a really gratifying job because it is, but I just had this entrepreneurial spirit from when I was a kid selling produce. I had a produce stand back then, which is a whole other story, but it goes back that far. So I started this company, Zen Agency, and I think back then it was called &#8220;For the Zen of It.&#8221; I&#8217;m not sure what that meant, but that&#8217;s what it was. It was just basically static webpages for local businesses. It wasn&#8217;t really an official company because it was just myself doing the actual work, and I was doing it from my home. After my job, I&#8217;d come home and work on my friend&#8217;s projects, who was the real estate developer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>One thing led to another. I made some money from that. I didn’t need that money because I had the hospital work, so I just rolled it into my first hire, who’s still with us to this day: Samantha Irving. She&#8217;s a great employee, and she pretty much handles all our support. So anyway, I started the company with one employee, along with my wife. I’ve got to mention my wife, Tina. She started the company with me, and we were just working out of our house. Then we moved into an office, got a few more projects under our belt, and that snowballed into more projects. We hired a few more people, and all the while, I&#8217;ve not taken a paycheck because I have my pay coming in from the hospital. So I really wasn&#8217;t concerned about taking a paycheck from Zen. Instead, I found myself putting money into Zen.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Anyway, years later, we’re talking 2000-teens, we have a vibrant company. We were just dabbling into e-commerce. We weren&#8217;t in WooCommerce at first; our first framework was OS Commerce, which was a complete nightmare, and that kind of drove us into the whole WooCommerce realm. But anyway, along the way, I’ve really never taken a paycheck. I’ve always just put the money back into the agency and kept growing it that way. We went from static website design to static website design and marketing. Then we really got into the e-commerce component of it, and now we’re getting into the whole AI component. Now I’m finally taking—not a paycheck, but I&#8217;ll call them bonuses—but I&#8217;m still keeping my job in cardiovascular perfusion at the hospital. I do surgery in the morning, usually at seven o’clock. If I’m on call, you&#8217;re called in, and it could happen anytime. That’s usually one week out of every five weeks. But other than that, it’s usually a morning gig, and I work at Zen in the afternoons. Even after all these years— I think it’s our 15th year in business—I’ve really pulled myself out of the agency because my end goal is to sell the agency. I have a wife and two kids. I love what I’m doing right now, which is seeing things at a higher level and only cherry-picking the projects I want to work on, which really aren’t the whole web development or web design aspect. My forte, I’ll say, is more in the hosting and maintenance area. For some reason, I just gravitated toward that end of it because I love the challenge. We have a team that handles the support, but when I see support, I get CC’d on all the support tickets when I probably shouldn’t because they just inundate my inbox. I’ll pick the ones I want to work on because I actually enjoy working on those, and that’s what I do in the afternoons. I hope that answered your question.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />And then some! Does everyone’s resume look as extensive as yours, or do you occasionally get someone who might have two resumes—two different people?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />Well, first let me just tell you about my staff. The majority of my staff, our leadership, is very experienced. I try to vet everyone who comes through the door, all of our staff, and I try to hire people who have many years of experience. Sometimes that can bite you because they’re not up on the new technology. And I&#8217;m up on the new technology. In fact, I’m up on it at 4:30 or 5 o’clock in the morning, just buying SaaS products that I’m wasting money on just to see what those SaaS products are like and how we can utilize them in the agency, only to find out a few months later that they’re not worth it. It’s like, &#8220;Teens years of experience.&#8221; You just mentioned one: a double resume. About two weeks ago, we hired a gentleman—I won’t say any names—who was really an experienced SEO. He wasn</p>\n\n\n\n<p>’t really in the whole e-commerce realm but was an experienced SEO. That’s a portion that we’re really trying to build out in our agency. We see good opportunities there, especially utilizing AI in that space. So anyway, we hired this guy. I vetted him, I hired him, and he started last week. Everything seemed to be going great. I was on vacation last week, so I didn’t really get any face-to-face time with him, but this week I did. I had face-to-face time with him yesterday, along with the rest of my marketing team. We had a group meeting, and his face wasn’t on the Google Meet, though it normally was when I was interviewing him and discussing the role. Anyway, I could tell something was not right; I could just tell. As we were in the meeting, I went into my G Suite, and I looked up his IP address and saw an IP address from the Philippines.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So that raised a red flag. I asked him to show his face, and he wouldn’t show his face. He said he had to restart his computer. So I said, “Well, you know what? Instead of showing your face, just tell me your birthday,” because I knew his birthday from a background check that we ran on him. He couldn’t say his birthday. He just dropped off. So immediately at that moment, I picked up my phone and called this guy, and he answered the phone while he was in the meeting with me. “Hey Joe, how’s it going?” So I knew something was up, and I would not stop, man. I just kept grinding, trying to get it out of him. It turns out he was working a couple of different jobs in the same role, but who knows if it was even him doing the work or not. I know one of his previous employers— it definitely wasn’t him doing the work because I phoned them, and now apparently he no longer has a job there either. So again, I’m not going to mention any names, but that was an interesting day yesterday and part of my morning today.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />Yeah, I’m glad that you shared that story because there are a lot of agency owners out there that hire remote workers. We have to. You need workers, and just like you said, you want people who are experienced and know their craft, and it may mean you have to hire them from somewhere else remotely. This could happen to anyone as an agency owner, so knowing to check…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />Yeah, especially in the WooCommerce space. Companies, especially now, are remote. From 2010 to 2019, we were renting a place, and then we bought our own. When COVID came, we all went remote, as everyone did. But then when COVID went away, we all came back to work. Last December, I said, “You know what? The majority of our staff isn’t even in our area, and some of our staff here is kind of hybrid anyway, so let’s just rent out the Zen building, and everybody&#8217;s remote.” So we all went remote in January. I’m in the office today; I actually came here for the meeting because I have a 7-year-old and a 9-year-old, and they’re not back in school yet, obviously. I didn’t want to have them screaming in the background, so I came to the office. It’s pretty desolate here; it’s not rented out yet, and it’s pretty desolate. But you run into that— you have remote employees, and you really don’t know what you’re getting. You really do have to vet them. I thought I did vet this guy.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />Especially in the WordPress space, so much is remote. I mean, Automattic being a remote-first company in general, you look at that. So obviously, folks associated with WooCommerce are more likely to be remote, and let’s even ignore the COVID office killer part of the equation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />Well, and there were a lot of people during the pandemic that you heard about who did the very exact thing that guy did to you, where they were taking on multiple jobs. There was one person I know who had three full-time jobs. Three full-time jobs! And yeah, there’s no way you&#8217;re doing that. “Oh, well, it’s just balance.” I was like, “No, it’s not just balance. There’s no way you can truly work three full-time jobs.”</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />No, I’m the only one who could do that for real. I’m doing it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />Well, that’s true, that’s true. I guess if we count your fatherhood, you definitely have three full-time jobs going there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />I remember seeing articles in all the papers about that, in the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, and they’re still talking about it—where folks are… There’s got to be a fun little word for it… Well, just multi-jobbing, double-dipping, triple-dipping…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />I’ll tell you, it’s got to be a lot easier now with ChatGPT and all the other AI tools out there. I mean, it just makes it super easy for them to do it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />So now Joe, do you and/or any of your staff attend the WordPress events out there?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />We did a local event; there was one a few years ago. Sean and I—Sean is our solution specialist—went to WooConf in Austin back in 2016, and that was an amazing time. WooCommerce stopped doing those for a bit, and that was the last one we went to. We also went to WordCamp Maryland, but we were only there for one day. We drove out and drove back that day. It’s kind of tough; you have to do a lot online.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />So you were mentioning earlier when we were talking about some of the types of work that Zen does that you have a WooCommerce project that you have put in a case study to Woo about. Tell us about that project.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />The case study is nearing completion, and we just reached out because all the Woo experts are in this… Can we still call ourselves Woo experts? I know we switched over to an Automattic thing just recently. We’re still the Woo experts. So we reached out, and we’re submitting this week—tomorrow, in fact. It’s a very interesting project that we worked on. Have you guys ever heard of Algolia? It’s a search and discovery platform. Oh yeah, the ability to build a site on WooCommerce is excellent for customizing. I mean, you can do anything with it, and you can’t do that with Shopify, not like you can with WooCommerce. So we built a jeweler’s site. This guy approached us at the end of last year. He had a ring builder, so basically you pick your setting, then you pick your stone, and then you go through a whole checkout process.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We built out this site for him to create that with WooCommerce, and it essentially gives you the ability to have a site with a million products on it, and they all get indexed on the Algolia search and discovery platform so that when someone is searching or filtering for those products, it’s not just a second, but it is literally like microseconds. It’s instant. I mean, you can click and filter, and it’s completely instant. But it’s one where it walks you through a process of building a ring and then going into a checkout with the whole Algolia tab panel type of thing. So you’re going through the step process. We scoped it out; we built it out. But I didn’t realize how great of an idea this thing was, and there are competitors in the space doing this, but this thing increased revenues by hundreds of thousands instantly because people really wanted this—people who wanted to build their own engagement ring. So it was a really interesting project for us to work on. This case study should be finished by tomorrow and submitted so that other folks can see this project and what it took to actually build it out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />So Joe, is this a plugin available on the WordPress plugin directory?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />Soon it will be. It’s not a plug-and-play type of plugin, and that’s the problem with it. I have probably $120,000 to $150,000 invested in this thing, and it’s not a plugin that we could actually just sell to you, and you just add it to your site because it’s more complicated than that. So there will be a free version—you’ll be able to download that plugin and use it—but all the goodies that come with it are premium, and that’s when you need the premium version of the plugin. But then you also need the development because there are customizations that could be done to it. Like I said, you can’t just simply buy that plugin. I wish that you could, but the support would be crazy.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />It sounds like it’s almost like an enterprise plugin, so you’d need enterprise-focused agencies to really take advantage of it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />You need enterprise. It’s not for a mom-and-pop shop. But also, a mom-and-pop shop’s not going to have a million products on their site. This is for a type of site that’s going to sell engine parts for all different vehicles because it’s based on year, make, and model, and those are nested. So you have year, make, model, engine size, and that’s all a whole nesting taxonomy that goes into your database. It could be quite a mess if you don’t do some custom work on the back end. That’s why it’s more for enterprise, which is good for us because then you kind of dig your hooks into a client. You need this for your</p>\n\n\n\n<p>enterprise website, and you need us now for your enterprise website as well, which is always a good thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />So Joe, does Zen Agency work with any other agencies out there? Do you find any cross-projects?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />That’s something that’s always been in the back of my mind, especially with the other WooCommerce experts. I’ve thought about that in the past in our Slack channel. As a matter of fact, a few of us have reached out to each other, but nothing has ever really come to fruition there. But I kind of wish it did because each of us has our own strengths. Like ours, we’re a full-service agency, but where’s our strength? It’s more in putting out fires. I hate to say that, but a lot of the work we get is fixing what another agency may have messed up or what a solo entrepreneur messed up.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />So what’s your future plan there, Joe?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />My end goal really is to continue to build Zen for a few more years. That may be through M&amp;A. That’s definitely on the table. I’ve looked at other agencies; there hasn’t been something there that really whet my appetite enough to take that leap. I came really close a couple of times, but that still isn’t where I want it. We’ve been in this business for a long time, and I think some other agencies look at us and see that we’re really fine-tuned. But we’re not fine-tuned yet because it’s ever-changing. I’m trying to build an operating system—my agency’s operating system—so that when a sale comes in from a WooCommerce lead online form, then what happens? I actually had this conversation with our solution specialist and two of our other sales guys. I said, &#8220;Well, then what happens? The form gets answered, and if we get the response, then what happens? Or what if we don’t get a response? If we don’t get a response, they go over here, and that ends with the contract being signed. And if the contract is signed, then if it’s development or marketing—let’s say it’s development—then that part of the operating system flowchart kicks in, and then what happens? Then we have a client meeting, and there’s always stuff that happens in between.&#8221; So at the end of the day, we have this big giant flowchart of the processes of the agency, and I am still working on the operating system. It’s been two years, and it kills me because I know I can get there. I have my whole team working on their components of it, and it’s a lot more difficult being a WooCommerce agency doing this when you’re a full-service agency because a lot of the other WooCommerce agencies, and I think this is one of the things that separates us from a lot of the other WooCommerce or even development agencies, that’s not just what we are.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Do you know what I mean? We’re into hosting, maintenance, WooCommerce development, all forms of marketing. So there are a lot of moving parts that make it a lot more complicated to pull this off. But once I pull this off—the operating system—then I know I can get a high multiple on my agency and sell it because right now it’s not like I’m starving to sell the agency. I’m starving to build it. I really enjoy building it. So I’m probably about five years out. In five years, I’d like to sell it to someone who can just take it, turn the key, and run with it—someone who’s really passionate about it—because our whole team is passionate. We’re totally transparent, unlike that employee that I hired. So when I hand the keys over, I want to make sure they’re able to run it because I didn’t build this to where it is today after all these years for nothing, and I would not want to see it flop in anyone else’s hands.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />Great. I think a lot of agency owners have the same mission as you— to figure out your templates and your processes so that it is something that is a sellable product. Because some agencies, as we know, become—especially when the owners work the agency as well and do the production—they’re so tied. They’re so tied to the person, not the agency, that the clients are. I’m saying that it’s hard to sell an agency. But doing it the way you’re doing it, where you are basically just building and overseeing this agency, you’re not getting yourself personally tied to those clients. And so I think that’s a very smart way of doing an agency if someone can afford to build their agency that way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />Well, if I can give any bit of advice to anyone— a lot of WooCommerce agencies are joining the platform— my advice to them would be to hustle. I’ve had two jobs for many, many years, and my wife’s not here, but she would attest to this, and my whole staff would too. I’ve worked these two jobs, and there have been many times where I worked until one o&#8217;clock, two o&#8217;clock in the morning—straight through the night—never mind that, straight through the night to have to go to work the next day because you’re putting out a fire, right? A server’s down right before Black Friday. We had a complete mess many years ago with a very big client in the gift basket industry, and that could have sunk our ship if I didn’t really get all hands on deck on it. But to any of the newer agencies that are coming up, my advice would be to try to do it the way I did it because you do it debt-free, right? That’s another thing I pride myself on with this agency.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I started a cafe in Scranton, and I didn’t do my due diligence on it, and I took a loan out for it. The cafe went belly up because the university directly across the street—now, I was selling paninis and espressos and lattes, like Starbucks-type stuff—had I done my due diligence, I would’ve known that less than a year later they were breaking ground directly across the street to build a full food court in the University of Scranton with a Starbucks and everything else. They erected a fence that spanned two blocks, and it blocked all the students from coming over while they were doing this build-out. So I completely lost all of my customers overnight, and that went belly up. I was in a rough spot back then. That was about the mid-2000s, like 2005-ish. Learning from that, I would say try to build something like this without pulling outside capital. I don’t know if that works for everyone, but it worked for me because I built a company that has no debt. Not many companies can do that. Not many companies can say that they did that, and it makes it a lot easier to build because there’s a lot less stress in your life—not like, &#8220;How am I going to pay these bills?&#8221; Right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />Yeah. I do think that web agencies are one of the types of companies that do… It’s easier to do. It’s not like a restaurant where you have to have a physical space. You have to have certain equipment. Yeah. I mean, you could have a laptop and get an agency up and off the ground. So I think it does mean you can do those without debt if you want to. You can start an agency. So we are getting close to our time here. Robert, did you have any other final questions or comments?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />I’ve got so many. I want to really dive into this magical agency operating system you’re building. I think we’re going to have to save that for another time. I want to see how AI has blown that up or maybe optimized it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />So we’re just now getting into the AI agent space and really trying to utilize the agents to perform a lot of this work. Especially with agencies, like you guys said, hiring remotely that may not necessarily even be closely remote—they could be far remote. And so when there’s an actual language barrier and stuff, that makes it a lot more difficult to run your agency. But when you employ AI agents and it’s done effectively, it can really streamline your operation to the point where you have lead people running things and the agents being your busy workers doing the actual work.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />Very cool stuff.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />Yeah, absolutely.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />That’s part of the operating system. But do invite me back sometime in the future; I’ll show you the operating system. In fact, I’ll even notify you once it’s complete.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />There we go. There we go. You’ll have a book out; you’ll be on a public speaking circuit, and then we’ll have you back on the show. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Joe, for coming and visiting with us today. We loved learning about Zen Agency and your plans for the future. How can people reach you? Let’s let them know.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />They can visit our site, Zen Agency, or they can call our number: (800) 775-9610.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />Phone number. Magical.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />Right? I know. I think that’s the first time we’ve had someone give a phone number on here. Interesting. I like it. An 800 number to boot.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />There you go.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robbie:<br />Cool. All right, well, that’s all we’ve got for today, so thanks for listening to this episode of Do the Woo Agency Chat, and catch the next episode coming up. Thanks.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Robert:<br />Thanks, Robbie. Thanks, Joe.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe:<br />Awesome. I enjoyed being here. Thank you very much.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode of Woo <strong><em>AgencyChat</em></strong>, hosts <strong>Robbie Adair</strong> and Robert Jacobi chat with <strong>Joe Riviello, founder of Zen Agency</strong>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joe shares his journey from working as a cardiovascular perfusionist to running a successful web design and development agency. He discusses the unique challenges of balancing two demanding careers, the evolution of Zen Agency, and the role of remote work and AI in his business operations. </p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Takeaways</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Balancing Careers</strong>: Joe Riviello successfully manages dual careers as a cardiovascular perfusionist and the founder of Zen Agency, demonstrating the possibility of balancing two demanding professions.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Agency Evolution</strong>: Zen Agency evolved from a small side project into a full-service web design and development firm, emphasizing the importance of persistence and gradual growth in building a successful business.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Remote Work Challenges</strong>: With the shift to remote work, especially in the WooCommerce space, Joe highlights the importance of thorough vetting when hiring remote employees to ensure they meet the agency&#8217;s standards.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>AI Integration</strong>: Joe is exploring AI agents to streamline operations at Zen Agency, showcasing how AI can be leveraged to enhance efficiency and handle routine tasks in a modern agency setting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Debt-Free Growth</strong>: Joe advocates for building a business without accruing debt, which has allowed him to grow Zen Agency with less financial stress and greater control over the company’s direction.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Future Plans</strong>: Joe&#8217;s long-term goal is to develop a comprehensive operating system for Zen Agency, which will make it easier to manage and ultimately sell the business, highlighting the importance of planning and systematizing operations for future scalability.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Learning from Failure</strong>: Joe shares a valuable lesson from a failed cafe venture, emphasizing the importance of due diligence and how setbacks can provide critical insights for future success.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Links</h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://zen.agency/\">Zen Agency</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/company/zen-agency-online/\">Zen on LinkedIn</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/zendesignfirm/\">Joe on LinkedIn</a></strong></li>\n</ul>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Thu, 15 Aug 2024 09:20:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:17;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:86:\"WPTavern: New Proposal to Update WordCamp Budget Guidelines to Attract New Attendees \";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:30:\"https://wptavern.com/?p=158655\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:95:\"https://wptavern.com/new-proposal-to-update-wordcamp-budget-guidelines-to-attract-new-attendees\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:4503:\"<p>Automattic-sponsored Global Community Team Programs Manager Rocio Valdivia has published a <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/community/2024/08/07/proposed-change-to-advertising-marketing-expense-guidelines/\">proposal</a> to allocate a portion of the WordPress Events/WordCamp budget solely for marketing and advertising. This change aims to attract more newcomers to WordPress events.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/_dorsvenabili/\">Rocio Valdivia</a> explained, “The Community Team’s goal for upcoming events is to warmly welcome more first-time attendees. <strong>We aim for</strong> <strong>over 50% of participants to be newcomers</strong> <strong>while celebrating returning attendees</strong>. To achieve this, event organizers should focus on attracting new participants through well-planned event design, messaging, and marketing strategies.”</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The new proposal reads: “A portion of the WordCamp budget may be allocated for marketing and advertising, subject to the approval of a Program Manager during your budget review and funded by the Global Sponsorship grant.” The amount can range from $50 to $400 based on factors like the organizers&#8217; experience, cost of living, and the size of the local community, and it should be utilized to maximize the event’s reach and impact.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Historically WordCamps have only very rarely included advertising expenses in their budgets.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Rocio has also shared some suggestions and advised that “Advertising funds should be used strategically to attract new attendees and raise awareness.” Her suggested strategies include listing events on online calendars, tech forums, newsletters and publications, collaborating with influencers and local businesses, distributing posters, flyers, and banners in strategic locations, running social media Ads and using traditional media to promote the events.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This proposal assumes importance in light of the <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/community/2024/05/31/current-challenges-of-wordpress-events-shaping-the-future/\">latest stats</a> showing that the number of new attendees has declined despite the number of events increasing during the Community Team’s re-engagement project. Automattic-sponsored Community Engagement Specialist <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/community/2024/07/04/first-time-attendees/\">Julia Golomb said</a>, “This decline underscores the importance of intentionally attracting and welcoming first-time attendees. They bring fresh perspectives, new energy, and potential for long-term growth of the WordPress community and user base.”&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The proposal has sparked several responses and suggestions from the WordPress community. Taco Verdonschot, community manager at Yoast, has suggested creating a subteam of PPC experts in the marketing/PR team to run campaigns and also drew attention to the SEO issues of websites on wordcamp.org. “If we’re ready to spend money on advertising, maybe we can also spend some money/resources on optimizing our sites and site structure for online marketing.”, he said. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Joost de Valk, founder of the Yoast SEO plugin, also echoed Taco’s sentiments:&nbsp; “I don’t need money. Just need permission to install an SEO plugin on those sites.”&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Interested community members can <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/community/2024/08/07/proposed-change-to-advertising-marketing-expense-guidelines/\">share their feedback</a> on the proposal before August 19, 2024.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This proposal comes after the Community Team <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/community/2024/07/23/venue-policy-update/\">updated the WordPress Events venue policy</a> last month to permit the use of venues with religious affiliations. The new policy advises avoiding venues that maintain political affiliations, feature religious iconography, host religious worship, or engage in any form of proselytizing to organizers or attendees.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Incidentally, <a href=\"https://netherlands.wordcamp.org/2024/wordcamp-netherlands-rescheduled/\">WordCamp Netherlands was rescheduled</a> from September to November 2024 due to low ticket sales. Hopefully, these changes will boost the success of WordCamps.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>(<em>I&#8217;ve survived the Hunger Games <img src=\"https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f973.png\" alt=\"?\" class=\"wp-smiley\" />. Please bear with me as I stumble around and find my way here.</em>)</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 14 Aug 2024 18:41:15 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:7:\"Jyolsna\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:18;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:96:\"WPTavern: #132 – Katie Keith &amp; Matt Cromwell on Making a Success of Your WordPress Product\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:48:\"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=158562\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:104:\"https://wptavern.com/podcast/132-katie-keith-matt-cromwell-on-making-a-success-of-your-wordpress-product\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:55881:\"Transcript<div>\n<p>[00:00:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, making a success of your WordPress product in an increasingly competitive landscape.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you, and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So on the podcast today we have Katie Keith and Matt Cromwell.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Katie is the founder and CEO at Barn2 plugins, and Matt is co-founder of GiveWP and Senior Director of Customer Experience at StellarWP. They have been running the WP Product Talk podcast together since early 2023, where they interview WordPress product owners to get the inside scoop on running a successful business in the WordPress ecosystem. And they&#8217;ve collated much of what they&#8217;ve learned on the show to create the ultimate blueprint on how to build a successful WordPress product, which they reveal during their WordCamp Europe presentation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We talk about the world of WordPress product development and marketing. This touches upon topics such as enhancing the WordPress admin interface with additional features that feel like a natural extension, and finding success through organic content and a consistent user focused YouTube strategy.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also explore important marketing strategies within the WordPress community, emphasizing the value of identifying gaps in the market and leveraging event attendance for growth.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Katie gives her thoughts on the power of explainer videos focused on solving user problems, and how Google and YouTube work hand in hand to surface relevant content.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Matt discusses the challenges of pricing products correctly, setting expectations, and offering strategic discounts without de-valuing their worth, focusing on the importance of listening to customer feedback to prioritize future product development.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>They both provide practical advice on creating a user-friendly product that feels like a part of WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Towards the end of our talk, Katie and Matt get into the value of transparency and the human touch in business. The significance of an up-to-date about us page and their approach to face-to-face customer interactions.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re a WordPress product developer, or just interested in the intricate world of WordPress business, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so without further delay, I bring you Katie Keith and Matt Cromwell.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I am joined on the podcast by Katie Keith and Matt Cromwell. How are you both doing?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:43] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> Doing really well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:44] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Good thanks.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> We&#8217;re in Turin, we&#8217;re at WordCamp Europe 2024. We&#8217;re up in the media room, and we&#8217;re going to talk today about the presentation that these fine people did yesterday. But before we get into that, do you just want to introduce yourself? Let&#8217;s take Katie first.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:57] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> I&#8217;m Katie Keith, co-founder and CEO at Barn2 Plugins.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:02] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> And I&#8217;m Matt Cromwell, co-founder of GiveWP and Senior Director of Customer Experience at StellarWP.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:08] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, so tell us about your presentation. Normally when I do these conversations, I have a script. I write down the questions because I know what the person has been talking about, but yours, I didn&#8217;t know, so it&#8217;s going to be very much a conversation. First of all, just tell us what the title was and what it was about.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:24] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> We interviewed 50 plus WordPress product owners, and this is what we learned. And the whole idea was that, we&#8217;ve been talking to a lot of product owners, and there&#8217;s actually a lot of things they say that are very similar in terms of best practices and how to do things. And we talked about this in the presentation, that we wanted to democratise business insights for everyone. Rather than just only talking about it in hallway tracks, we wanted to be able to have a lot more people hear it and join the conversation, and that&#8217;s what the whole purpose of WP Product Talk is.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:57] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So what is WP Product Talk?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:59] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> WP Product Talk is a weekly podcast, occasionally weekly podcast. We&#8217;re on a break right now. Where we bring on a guest to speak about their expertise, or something they&#8217;re really passionate about, in terms of building a product business.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And we have co-hosts. We always tell them it&#8217;s a conversation, not an interview. So we have our own insights and experiences that we bring to the fore as well. We have four co-hosts, myself, Katie and Amber Hinds from Equalize Digital, and Zach Katz from Gravity Kit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:30] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> But they&#8217;re all product owners. Everybody that comes on your show is a product owner, and you just get into a conversation, see where that leads you. And you&#8217;ve gained some insights over the last, what, 50 did you say, episodes?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:40] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> Now it&#8217;s like 65 episodes, but they&#8217;re almost always product owners. Occasionally they are an expert in a specific field, where we ask them to come and talk about their expertise because it&#8217;s hyper relevant to product owners. So everything we talk about is directed at product owners.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:56] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So you&#8217;ve assembled some of the top tips, some of the advice that you got from these product owners. And you went and stood on stage, and apparently there were some technical gremlins, which can&#8217;t be particularly nice, but that&#8217;s what you did. You stood on stage and distilled your learnings over the last 65 episodes, so we&#8217;re going to get into that. What did you talk about on stage?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:06:14] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> So we went through all of the previous episodes and picked out the best advice from all of them, which we divided into four categories.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The four categories were product development, marketing, customer experience, and business. And in each of those, we chose about three previous guests who have been on the podcast to talk about those topics.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We thought we&#8217;d take a new format, which was Matt&#8217;s idea for the talk, which we haven&#8217;t seen at previous WordCamps, which is where, instead of just hearing from Matt and myself as the speakers, we included audio from the previous podcast episodes. So each section had an audio from somebody like people from Ellipsis who specialise in marketing, or people from particular product companies, and so on. So you got to hear from all of these experts, as well as Matt and myself.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:07] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> How did it go down? Was it well received, well attended?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:10] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> We were really happy. It was actually a totally packed house.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Nice.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:14] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> We were on track three, which we wish we would&#8217;ve been informed that it wasn&#8217;t going to be live streamed. We would&#8217;ve live streamed it from WP Product Talk if we knew that. The people seemed to be really receptive. We got a lot of positive feedback. There were definitely some technical hiccups, but we were able to grace our way through it more or less. I just make fun of myself the whole time, and people feel better.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:34] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> The technical hiccups weren&#8217;t that the audio didn&#8217;t play, was it?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:37] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> The audio was just challenging. There was this whole issue of, it didn&#8217;t auto play the audio like it was supposed to. They had to click on it manually. It was a mess. We had to telepathically communicate with IT about what was going on, and it took about five slides ish until we had a good rhythm.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:55] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So, okay, you&#8217;ve distilled it all down, you&#8217;ve talked to different people, you&#8217;ve put them on slides, and you&#8217;ve shown these people&#8217;s wisdom to the audience. Let&#8217;s hear it. What kernels of wisdom did you draw, and what were the bits that made it into the presentation?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:07] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Well, the first section was about product development, and we focused a lot on how to design an intuitive product, ideally inspired by WordPress itself. Because if you use a lot of themes or plugins, you&#8217;ll see some integrate beautifully with WordPress, and others really look stuck on, and have reinvented the wheel, so it feels like it&#8217;s not WordPress at all.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we&#8217;ve advised people to make it feel like it&#8217;s part of WordPress, and particularly like the block editor, so that when somebody lands on your product for the first time, it already feels familiar to them. And ideally they can get up and running without even having to read the documentation or anything.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We included a screenshot from GiveWP in that section, where their create a donation form looks like the block editor, so that people can just get started with it, without even having to learn or read the documentation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So the idea being that if you are, I guess, if you&#8217;re new to WordPress, you can just drop right into whatever that experience is, where you just, I don&#8217;t know, installed a plugin, or something like that. And you&#8217;re not trying to learn, okay, here&#8217;s a new color palette. I don&#8217;t know what that button does. I don&#8217;t know where this goes. Why is it in a different font? Just keep it WordPress, keep it simple, that kind of thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:18] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Exactly, yeah. That way people will be much more successful.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also gave other pieces of advice, such as maybe adding some kind of a onboarding or setup wizard to take people through the key features of the product when they first install it, to make it even easier for them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:34] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s kind of interesting because some of the biggest plugins out there don&#8217;t follow that advice, do they? I mean, I&#8217;m sure that you can name a dozen or more plugins where you install it and you are hijacked. So I guess for some people it works. For other people, it doesn&#8217;t. But the advice, if you&#8217;re starting out, at least the advice that you&#8217;ve just given is, go with WordPress, keep it simple, don&#8217;t overcomplicate. You don&#8217;t need to waste your time and effort making a unique UI that doesn&#8217;t need to be there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:59] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> I think one way we said it was to enhance, not replace the admin. There&#8217;s definitely ways in which you can do additional things in your settings page, or in any configuration, or in Gutenberg itself that isn&#8217;t exactly what WordPress is all the time, but it should look like a natural extension of it. So enhance, don&#8217;t replace.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And we gave a couple pretty good examples. Kadence does a good job as well. When you&#8217;re in the customizer, they actually have this custom footer area that helps you to customise your footer, ideally. And it looks and feels a lot like an extension of the customizer, even though it&#8217;s not native to the customizer at at all.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:35] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, so mimicking the WordPress UI as well. Okay, that&#8217;s interesting. Okay, so that&#8217;s a good piece of advice. Where do we go next?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:41] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> The next category after that was marketing. And in marketing in particular, we covered several different kind of subtopics. We talked about community a bit, we talked about how you optimise which channel you might use. Alex Denning was in there, Kathy Zant was in there as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think some of the biggest things that we talked about were just being able to identify where you&#8217;re winning in marketing, and to double down on that, and to also take your community around your product really seriously.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:10] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do either of you have products outside of WordPress? No, shaking head, no. Okay, so given that you&#8217;ve both got products inside a WordPress, how hard is it to market to the WordPress crowd? I get this intuition that the people that use WordPress, and especially people that attend events like this, have a different approach. Their relationship to being marketed toward is very different. I feel that we don&#8217;t like being marketed at as a community. Do you think my intuitions are wrong there?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:38] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> Yes and no. Me personally, I have observed that, when I go to WordCamps, people have that sentiment. They&#8217;re often highly opinionated about what plugins should or shouldn&#8217;t do in the admin. And most often that&#8217;s because they are building websites for their clients, and they don&#8217;t want to hand over a website to the client that looks like a bunch of spam in the admin area. So I understand where they&#8217;re coming from, but I don&#8217;t believe that the WordPress community represents the 90% of customers out there that are purchasing our products.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:09] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I also feel that, if we were to rewind the clock, oh, I don&#8217;t know, let&#8217;s say 10 years or something like that, I feel launching a product in the WordPress space would&#8217;ve been a lot more straightforward. You know, what have we got now? 60,000 plus plugins in the repository. Countless, I have no idea how many commercial plugins there are out there. There&#8217;s probably 10 or 15 different form solutions. If you want to create custom post types, there&#8217;s bunches of those.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Do you think it is harder now to market into the community? You&#8217;ve both got products with a history, you&#8217;ve kind of crossed that bridge already. So you&#8217;ve struggled through that and come through the other side. But if you&#8217;re just beginning your journey with a product in the WordPress space, I&#8217;m imagining it&#8217;s harder now than it ever has been.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:48] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Yeah, when I first started selling products, we found ideas which didn&#8217;t already exist. I could just write one blog post about this topic and it would go straight to the top of Google, because nobody else had ever written about that, there were no products doing that. And as the ecosystem has grown, that has obviously become more difficult.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I believe there are still gaps in the market where you can do that. You just have to be really, really in there with WordPress, WooCommerce, whatever you&#8217;re specialising in, in order to find those gaps. So I&#8217;m still aware of gaps in WooCommerce in particular, where you could launch a product and nobody else has ever written about it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>An example of a new product I released only a couple of years ago was WooCommerce discontinued products. Nobody had ever written about that because there was no products that allowed you to discontinue your products.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So things like that, they&#8217;re often quite small ideas, but if you&#8217;re just starting out then, if you&#8217;re not like a funded startup, and you&#8217;re bootstrapping, then maybe you want a fairly small plugin, which you can hopefully start getting sales, get some experience.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I&#8217;d say keep your eyes open, and try to find something that is unique and it is still possible, although I accept it&#8217;s not as easy as it used to be.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:03] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> What do you use as your primary marketing channels, plural? What is there out there? You know, you could use Google ads, you could use Facebook ads, you could use an email list, you could go on podcasts, or start your own podcast. What are you doing that you found has worked?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:17] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> The best marketing channel for me has always been organic content on our own website. So that&#8217;s generally quite specific things that people are searching for, about how to achieve certain goals using our plugins.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And our second main marketing channel is YouTube, which we also covered in the marketing section of our presentation yesterday. Because YouTube&#8217;s actually the second largest search engine in the world. We did a quote from Jamie Marsland, who&#8217;s a big YouTube influencer, as well as a WordPress product owner at the moment. In which he said, you need to have a consistent YouTube strategy and stick to it. And I think that&#8217;s really important, because you can&#8217;t just stick the odd video on YouTube and expect to get sales from it. Because YouTube is all about building a following. And also learning how to do it in a way that appeals to people psychologically, with things like effective thumbnails, and titles that make people click. So if you&#8217;re going to do YouTube, do it properly as Jamie suggested, but the rewards can be there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> What do you do? Like explainer videos about the product, or just more general WordPressy content.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:24] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Most of our YouTube content is explainer tutorials about our products, although we are always experimenting with how to build our following more widely. So we do have some videos, for example, we don&#8217;t have any translation plugins at Barn2, but we did a best translations plugin YouTube video recently, which is currently one of our top 10 videos in terms of views.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:47] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do the explainer videos actually cause conversions? Because you&#8217;d imagine that if you were looking at an explainer video, you&#8217;ve already bought the product, and you&#8217;re just trying to figure out how something works. But I guess maybe not, maybe you are just exploring, and just seeing what the product can do with the intention of buying it. So if you did go down that road, and just do explainer content, that could still be effective as a marketing tool, which is kind of interesting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:07] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> The best way to do explainer content on YouTube is to put the user&#8217;s problem first, not the product. So, say we have a WooCommerce product table plugin, but the tutorial shouldn&#8217;t be called How to Use the WooCommerce Product Table Plugin. It should be about how to create a searchable one page order form in WooCommerce or something. So if somebody&#8217;s looking, they&#8217;re searching for something about creating a product order form, then they will find this and our product is the solution.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:39] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s kind of interesting, my use of YouTube always seems to give me the same content. If I watch, I don&#8217;t know, I watch a lot of music videos, so I get lots of music videos. So I would have to use the Google search engine in order to find a YouTube video. But I guess, if you are, I don&#8217;t know, constantly searching for WordPress content, it may surface your YouTube marketing videos as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:01] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> Yeah, for sure. I mean, Google definitely operates that way. It&#8217;s definitely watching you wherever it possibly can, and it will elevate the relevant content. The reason YouTube is the second biggest search engine is specifically because of the way in which it compliments and mimics the Google search engine itself. Even if you&#8217;re searching on Facebook sometimes for something, you&#8217;ll end up finding interesting new recommendations in your YouTube feed because of your traffic in Facebook.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:29] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> What do you think about the state of building a product in the WordPress space now? As I said a minute ago, if you rewind the clock 10 years, I feel it was much more of a build it and they will come kind of thing, because you were quite likely the first person to come up with it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I know now that that&#8217;s no longer the case. Marketing, it can&#8217;t be a sort of afterthought. If you&#8217;re going to be building a product, if you&#8217;re a developer, you have to have that as a plan from the outset. So it&#8217;s not build it, then think about marketing. It&#8217;s more, build it at the same time as trying to figure out the marketing, because it probably won&#8217;t succeed.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean, you might get lucky, right? I mean, there&#8217;s always that, but typically I would imagine now, because we&#8217;ve got this fairly saturated marketplace, you&#8217;ve got to put marketing front and center.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:10] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> I have mixed responses to that sentiment from my personal experiences. One is that, being the old man in the room, I&#8217;m like, it wasn&#8217;t easy back in my day kids. Yes, I get it, I get the whole idea that it was easier back then. And sure, for sure, but we would not have had success without really strong marketing. We would not have had success without constantly iterating on the product all the time. And none of those things have changed. All of that is still ground zero for how to be a product owner.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the saturated market is a big aspect for sure. But we are seeing, of course, new opportunities like, at the moment, no one has really nailed exactly how we want to leverage AI and WordPress particularly well. And so there&#8217;s lots of opportunity there. It&#8217;s a little bit of a gold rush. You&#8217;re seeing a whole bunch of products being shipped to .org that all are AI related. Are any of them any good? They&#8217;re fine, I guess. Are any of them knocking it out of the park? Not necessarily, so far. Somebody is yet to really solve that new problem, or offer that new feature in a way that is really compelling.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I can tell you that, from my observations of .org all the time, people are shipping AI products all the time right now. And so the one who really nails it correctly, and markets it correctly is the one that&#8217;s going to start rising up to the top. So just as much as there&#8217;s a saturation of market, there&#8217;s also these new opening types of features that are coming along the way as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean, truthfully, even when we shipped GiveWP, everyone said, I would never do a CRM in WordPress, it&#8217;s just not made for a CRM. Which I thought at the time was craziness, but it was a very developery conversation. There&#8217;s several very popular CRMs in WordPress now that are doing really well. Groundhogg is great. Fluent CRM is doing well. These are new emerging markets. So as much as I understand the sentiment, you have to have a little bit closer look at the market to recognise that there&#8217;s emerging markets, and there&#8217;s also new ways to do things, and there&#8217;s always a combination of having really excellent marketing along the side as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:20:17] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You can answer this question in a whole multitude of ways, but I&#8217;ll just put it out there and you can tell me what you think. Do you see events like this, the attendance of events like this, is that a useful marketing thing? I mean, obviously you can pay, have a sponsor booth, you&#8217;ve kind of nailed your flag to the mast a bit there. You know, you&#8217;re obviously here to sponsor. You said you, Katie I&#8217;m looking at at the moment, Katie said she&#8217;s not got a sponsor booth this time. But, is it a useful thing to attend WordPress meetups, WordCamps? Is that a useful part of the marketing jigsaw puzzle?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:20:46] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> I&#8217;ll answer first and just say that, GiveWP was built on the backs of meetups and WordCamps. It was fundamental to our growth. How do we measure that ROI? I don&#8217;t know. There&#8217;s lots of different ways over the years that I tried to, you know, I don&#8217;t like the salesy approach to it, but I can say that, because we were present at WordCamps, and people met us, there were times when six or seven months later after a WordCamp, I would have somebody personally email me and say, hey, I just bought GiveWP yesterday, and I met you at a WordCamp. That&#8217;s anecdotal for the most part, it&#8217;s not like huge data, but I really do assume that it was part of our continual growth, is how we invested in WordCamps.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Things have changed a bit. I mean, COVID changed everything for sure, and events are a bit different nowadays. And, is our target audience attending Workcamp EU? Less so. There are definitely agencies here, and agencies have a huge influence over what products their clients choose for their websites. So that&#8217;s always useful for sure.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But generally speaking, the ROI that Stellar thinks of when we come to events like this, is how we are going to meet new partners, how we&#8217;re going to talk to up and coming developers who we might want to hire, how we can learn more from other companies who are doing similar things to us. It&#8217;s more of an industry event for us more. But the more local, boots on the ground, WordCamps are, I feel have really good ROI for products in particular, because they are a lot more affordable, and they&#8217;re a lot more localised.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:22:16] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I hear the same story all the time, that measuring of the ROI from an event like this is nigh on impossible, but there&#8217;s something there. I mean, if there wasn&#8217;t, you wouldn&#8217;t have as many people attending on behalf of their companies, I wouldn&#8217;t have thought.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:22:28] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> Absolutely. I had a really great conversation with Omnisend. I won&#8217;t say anything that I believe they wouldn&#8217;t want me to say, but they have been investing in Shopify a lot, and they&#8217;re now also investing in WordPress right now. And they just told me a little bit about the differences between how they approach those two communities.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>They said that Shopify is very much sale oriented, and ROI driven, and revenue driven, and numbers driven, and the WordPress community is more of a community, and you have to come in open-minded, and open-handed, and make relationships. They saw that as a real clear, stark difference between the two. But it was clear also that, from what they were telling me, they see it as a valuable investment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:07] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> What was the next thing on the list that you said in your presentation?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:23:11] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> The third of the four categories we covered was customer experience, and particularly listening to your customers in a way that would directly allow you to make improvements to your product.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And we started that section by talking about the experience of customers before they even buy your product. We focused on InstaWP because, since that was launched, a lot of WordPress product owners have been creating admin demos, where people can test drive the plugin in a pre-setup test site, which expires after a few hours or days, so they can see if they like it before they buy.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we included a quote from Vikas, the founder of InstaWP, with some tips about how to make the most of that. And we followed that up with our own tips, which included things like planning the demo from the user&#8217;s perspective, thinking what page should the InstaWP demo open on, because it could be a page in the front end, or the back end.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And when I&#8217;ve been doing those projects myself at Barn2 with our own plugins, it&#8217;s actually quite interesting thinking, what is the most intuitive page to land somebody on, if they&#8217;re put on this site for the first time, where you&#8217;ve already set up your product? And generally that&#8217;s a backend page, but it does require a bit of thought.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And we also showed a screenshot of some admin tours in our plugin demos, and The Events Calendar have a nice banner, which explains what to do and sources of support, and so on. So it&#8217;s all about thinking about the user&#8217;s experience, when they use your product in this demo environment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The final thing we did on that was to give some tips about actually how to close the sale, because if somebody likes the product that they&#8217;re test driving, obviously you want to make it really easy for them to purchase it. So we showed a screenshot of one of our Barn2 demos, which has a banner across the top, which has a link to the support page on our website in case someone&#8217;s a bit stuck, and also a link to buy the plugin if they like it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And in addition to that, we add everybody to Mailchimp so that they get a particular sequence of emails for that demo, which initially tells them how to use it and get set up. When the demo expires, it emails them again saying, now buy the plugin, with the obvious links.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then if they don&#8217;t buy it, we continue to send emails, giving them reasons to buy it. For example, that might include screenshots and case studies of other websites already using the plugin. So you get a kind of FOMO, fear of missing out effect that other people are successfully using this product, so you should be too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:25:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Nice. Anything to add?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:25:44] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> The customer experience one is one of my favorite ones. We talked a lot also about face-to-face interactions, establishing relationship with our users as much as possible. And the extreme ROI that that brings in terms of valuable product insight, and even competitor insight, why people leave, why people stay, why people refund. All of those things show up when you have a stronger relationship with your customers, and investing in that time in a serious way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For that one we quoted Amanda Gorman from StellarWP, and she really said, no matter what the size of business, investing in relationships in your customers is always a good idea.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also quoted Miriam Schwab about how she receives a lot of insight and feedback from her customers through support in particular. I really love the way she said, I like to get away from the feeling, like the feeling that I get 10 tickets a day about this subject, or the feeling that everybody&#8217;s asking about this new feature, and instead really having to go through data, and tagging things correctly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I really like the way in which she said that tags shouldn&#8217;t just be about like feature request, feature request, whatever, here&#8217;s a bug or whatnot. She said, you can also say, this is a usability issue. And she highlighted how somebody says, I just can&#8217;t figure out where to back up my site, for example. It&#8217;s not that the feature doesn&#8217;t exist, it&#8217;s not that it&#8217;s broken, it&#8217;s just that they can&#8217;t figure out where that&#8217;s at. And that&#8217;s a usability issue. I thought that was a really unique approach to tagging feedback, in a way that would be really actionable for the product team.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:11] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> How do you both, in your own businesses, how do you decide what to build next? I mean, presumably there must be some intuition on your own part. You must be thinking, okay, this would be a nice feature to add in. But then also, there must be channels, whether it&#8217;s people writing you an email, or support requests, you know, we&#8217;ve got 50 support requests about this exact thing, we must build that. Where do you get your intuitions about what comes next, and is it often driven by, I mean, do you listen to your customers in that sense?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:27:36] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> I personally am extremely biased. I really believe that products are always best when they are customer centric. If you&#8217;re not listening to your customers, you&#8217;re missing out on future sales, like bar none, absolutely.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And what was fascinating, as I was putting together all the audio clips for the whole presentation, there were a lot of presentations, regardless of the topic, where they specifically mentioned, you can&#8217;t really do development without listening to your customer, or you can&#8217;t do marketing without listening to your customer, or you can&#8217;t do good business without listening to your customer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It came up over and over again in a lot of different contexts. We have a system internally at Stellar, we use a couple different feedback boards, one is Canny, another one is featureOS, and we are logging customer feedback every single day, all the time. It&#8217;s a responsibility of the support team, or responsibility of the customer success team.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then the customers have the ability to vote up certain features and whatnot. And we track what has the most votes, and that is not necessarily to say that the thing that has the most votes is the most urgent feature, but it is something that has a high priority because of the volume of customer feedback.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:28:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. Katie, anything to add?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:28:44] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> At Barn2 we use a formula to help us decide what new features to develop, and that&#8217;s based on the amount of demand, like Matt mentioned. And in addition, it has a factor based on the impact that we think it would have on sales, and also the difficulty to implement it. And we have a formula which brings together the score in those three categories to create an overall score.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so then we kind of sort in descending order, when we are looking at new features to add, and use that to guide us. Of course, some feature requests aren&#8217;t relevant to the scope of the product, so you have to know what the purpose of your product is, and be firm on that sometimes and think. Maybe sometimes customers are asking for a particular feature that doesn&#8217;t fit within the scope, but they can achieve it by using a plugin from another company with your plugin, for example. So in that case, we might do some collaboration with that company to cross promote our products or something like that, instead of adding it as a feature.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:29:44] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Most WordPress companies, I think, are following a subscription model now where, you know, you pay one year, and then you pay the next year, and there may be a discount or something like that. But I&#8217;m guessing it&#8217;s harder to get the customer on board than it is to retain them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So a lot of the effort will go into getting them that first time, and then hopefully, you know, with the discount, or just loyalty, or good support, or whatever it may be, you can keep them, I don&#8217;t know, 3, 4, 5, 6 years, whatever that may be.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:30:11] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> Yeah, that was actually our last topic, which we kind of put under the category of business, experimentation with pricing models in particular. Mark Westguard talked about it specifically, that picking the right pricing model for your product is a really important idea. In WordPress, people do tend to go with annual renewals, but there have been others who have tried different things in different ways. There are even monthly payments that some folks have done. There are lifetime subscriptions as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I will say, I&#8217;ve gone on a bit of a journey on that conversation, in the sense that I was always extremely anti that lifetime is never useful or beneficial. But there have been some folks who have said that, under certain circumstances, it makes a lot of sense.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For example, we all know that a customer has a certain lifetime, and a lifetime value. If you can get that entire lifetime value upfront, it actually is an interesting model overall. But I still would say, if that&#8217;s the case, I would love to give them a five year license upfront instead of a lifetime one, because I&#8217;m always thinking of the cost of support over a course of a lifetime, which is a long time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:31:14] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Never is a lifetime, you know, five years or something like that seems to be about the right idea. But then you&#8217;ve got things like Black Friday to throw into the mix with the pricing. And it always seems to me that, I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s the same for you, but do you tend to empty your wallet at Black Friday, and buy all the things at Black Friday? And then I think there&#8217;s quite a bit of waiting until next year comes around, and buy the exact same product again on the Black Friday deal time. Do you have any of that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:31:38] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> People definitely know when to look out for deals, and sales and whatnot. If anybody&#8217;s paying attention to Stellar, you know that July is a really important month at StellarWP. But other than that, business in general doesn&#8217;t work that way. You don&#8217;t only launch things in November, or you don&#8217;t only launch things in July. So the large majority of sales that come into any common business happens outside of those gigantic big sales.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And honestly, sometimes extreme discounting can also bring in a bunch of extreme customer problems, new customer problems. Folks who really only want to buy when you&#8217;re selling it at the bottom barrel price. They also tend to sometimes be the type of customer you don&#8217;t actually want to deal with a lot.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So there is a balance you have to look for to be able to price your products correctly, and to discount them correctly, and set expectations correctly so that you&#8217;re still showing the value of what people are getting, and not devaluing your product.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In the episode with Mark, everyone should listen to that episode, it was a really good episode actually, he talks a bit about that as well, so did James from Ellipsis. He talked quite a bit about pricing as well, which was a really good one that we didn&#8217;t get to get to in the presentation because of technical difficulties.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:32:49] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you discount upon renewal? There&#8217;s quite a few plugins that I, every year I buy it again, and again. And there is something about that, I don&#8217;t know, 30, 40%, which kind of draws me in. I have everything set in a calendar so I know when things are going to renew, and I always go in and see what the offer is going to be, and that sometimes swings me from, I&#8217;m going to discontinue using that right into, okay, I&#8217;ll pay it. Do you do any of that, either of you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:33:13] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> We don&#8217;t discount at renewal, but we will do strategic renewal discounts. So, we&#8217;ll send out early renewal emails if we can get folks to renew their subscription earlier at a discounted rate, that actually can be pretty beneficial to their lifetime value, or to their ability to continue to renew over time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also will try to time early renewal discounts around when we know we&#8217;re having a sale, because we do have that issue where, you&#8217;re putting your product on extreme sale, and customers who are like, I&#8217;ve been spending money with you for three years and you&#8217;re not giving me a discount, well, we&#8217;ll give them a discount as a early renewal one, in order to prevent that type of feedback.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that also helps prevent those who are try to be really savvy and get around the system by canceling their subscription early, or asking for a refund early and then buying again at the new, because that&#8217;s not a great customer experience for them because they&#8217;re getting a new license key, they got to go swipe out their license keys everywhere. We don&#8217;t want people to have to do that. So trying to get them a new, nice, easy path is the way we try to go. We do that by email segmentation for the most part, but if folks reach out early as well over email, we&#8217;ll reach out to them and help them out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:34:25] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> There are some companies, not just in the WordPress space, but out there, who constantly seem to be having a sale, and the whole product always seems to be at 30% off. And I always have the intuition, what&#8217;s the real price? What is the actual real price? And that&#8217;s kind of an interesting thing as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The other thing that I just want to ask, do you feel that WordPress is a more expensive place to be than it used to be, say 10 years ago? It feels like we have an ecosystem where, I don&#8217;t know, maybe things floated around the $47 for one year mark, where now it might be more like $197 or $397. I think it&#8217;s a more expensive place to be. I think everybody who&#8217;s got a business in the WordPress space would feel that&#8217;s justified. But, have you got any thoughts on that? Has it become more expensive?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:35:05] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Yeah, I agree that, generally, it has become more expensive because 10 years ago there was, the predominant business model was set by companies like Envato with Theme Forest, and Code Canyon, and so on. In which they had a very low price for lifetime update. And for a while it was even lifetime support, although they changed that a few years ago.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that created a expectation more widely throughout the industry, that plugins would just have a low lifetime value. And that has given lifetime pricing a bad name. Like Matt mentioned a minute ago, there can be a good business reason to do lifetime, but people are often really absolutely against that because they remember those days. And I think a lot of people that will have bought products on one of the Envato marketplaces like Theme Forest, will have seen a theme be discontinued, and they&#8217;re stuck with it. And it breaks the whole website after a WordPress update or something, and they have to either change themes, or hire a developer to fix it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s a really big problem because those were not sustainable business models, and these theme authors, and plugin authors couldn&#8217;t afford to be providing lifetime support for that tiny one off cost. So that&#8217;s why they discontinued those products. And so that&#8217;s very different to the companies that offer Lifetime now for maybe four times the annual cost. So yeah, it&#8217;s got more expensive, but you can trust the companies you&#8217;re buying from more.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:36:29] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> I&#8217;d also say that, running a business that develops products for WordPress has gotten more expensive over the years as well, because WordPress itself has actually evolved in ways that, developmentally, it&#8217;s more challenging to develop with WordPress than it was before. Requires a lot more different types of code knowledge than it ever did before. And the industry in general, around really good, experienced PHP developers, MySQL developers, Javascript developers, React developers, of which you need your WordPress developer to be all of those things, has just really become more and more expensive.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Besides the fact that, as a whole, which I&#8217;m really happy about this, even though it sounds like a big problem. In support, when people reach out for a support, a technical support issue, they really are hoping and expecting that you can help them regardless of whether your plugin had to do anything with the problem or not. And I think that&#8217;s actually a good thing, but that means that all your support technicians have to be highly technical, highly capable. You really can&#8217;t get away with like a tier one, entry level triage type of support as well anymore. It really demands a bit more expertise than previously. And those things cost money, and it&#8217;s not sustainable to continue to basically run product on the cheap, and then expect really high end results either.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:37:50] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Whenever I come across a brand new product in the WordPress space that I&#8217;ve never heard of before, which is usually several times a week actually, it really is huge the amount of new things out there. I have this journey and my mouse goes, you know, I&#8217;ve landed on the homepage, I then end up on the pricing page almost immediately, I&#8217;ve just quick scroll through the homepage. And then the one that I&#8217;m really interested in is the About Us page. That&#8217;s where I spend most of my time. Because, given the capacity to, I don&#8217;t know, poorly code something, you&#8217;re going to spend some money, it&#8217;s going to go into your website, then there may be a refund or what have you, but there&#8217;s a lot of trust going on there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s where I want to know who you are. I want to know what your heritage is, what other things that you&#8217;ve got. So if I had had a product, and you had asked me on your podcast, that would&#8217;ve been my one, is get your About Us page straightened out, and make sure that the human side of you comes out. You&#8217;re not just this great big entity. I think the WordPress space is drawn towards individuals, it&#8217;s kind of probably why we turn up to events like this. So anyway, that&#8217;s my little piece of wisdom at the end.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:38:52] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> It&#8217;s a really good point. I have a small little blog series I do personally called Shiny New Plugins, where I audit the newest free plugins on .org, and I just highlight ones that look really interesting to me. And I will say that I try to figure out who&#8217;s behind the plugin.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And recently there was one that was launched named PersonalizeWP, and I was like, this looks really interesting. And I checked it out, and it was backed by an agency, and Paul Halfpenny is one of the authors there, and I met him and I was like, this looks really legit. So just the fact that his agency was behind it, and that they&#8217;re really putting time and energy into it, it spoke a lot for the brand.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I also saw one called UiChemy, which is kind of a weird name, but they&#8217;re sponsors are here at WordCamp EU right now. They did a whole Figma to WordPress export plugin, which is really interesting. But the personal touch, the fact that there&#8217;s actual people, and an actual company behind a product makes a big difference.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:39:46] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. So the short circuit for that is that you&#8217;ve already been in business for 10 years. That is an immediate win for me because I can see that, oh, you&#8217;ve stuck around, you&#8217;ve got 10 years under your belt. But obviously most companies that are starting haven&#8217;t been around for 10 years, but there are still ways of doing it. Make yourself human, turn up to events, portray yourself in a positive way. And there&#8217;s definitely times when I&#8217;ve been to plugin sites, and the About Us page has been the thing which has made me close the browser and move on.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:40:11] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Yeah, the about page is more important than it used to be as well for other reasons, because Google&#8217;s doing a lot of updates at the moment, which add the credibility of the site as a big factor for rankings. And that involves, Google needs to know who&#8217;s behind the site as well, and that it&#8217;s credible, and that you are linking to other places linked from.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maybe if you&#8217;ve got your team on there, then it would be good to have links to your socials, so that they can see that you are real people with a significant following. So whatever you&#8217;ve got that could add credibility, it&#8217;s worth having that on your about page, and also elsewhere.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So for this reason, at Barn2, we&#8217;ve been doing a lot of work on that. They call it EEAT, and I&#8217;ve forgotten what that stands for, but it&#8217;s to do with the trust factors on your website. So we are redesigning our about page to add a lot more of that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Things like Trustpilot reviews, and testimonials from customers, and also links to media coverage that we&#8217;ve had, so that Google and real people can see that the people running the company are active in the wider media. And even things like this podcast here, for example, might go on our about page, so that people can see our work within the community. And that will impress both search engines and real users.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:41:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, it&#8217;s kind of interesting, because if I&#8217;m buying clothes, or paperclips, or dog food, or whatever it might be, I couldn&#8217;t care less who makes it. Honestly, the bottom line is, can it get to me tomorrow, and how much does it cost? But I really do care about who&#8217;s building the thing in WordPress, and I would imagine that&#8217;s quite important, so there we go.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think we&#8217;ve probably used up enough of your time, we&#8217;re on the 45 minute mark. Just before we go, where can we find you? Drop a URL, a Twitter handle, whatever works for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:41:55] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> So you can find all the previous episodes of the podcast and subscribe for the future at wpproducttalk.com. To find out more about me individually, you can find me on Twitter at Katie Keith Barn2, or my company website is barn2.com.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:42:12] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> Yeah, wppropducttalk.com is a great spot, and we are investing in that website a lot, which is a lot of fun actually. And I&#8217;m on Twitter at Learn with Matt C, and I also blog semi-regularly at mattcromwell.com. And of course, I want everybody to check out all the awesome things we&#8217;re doing at stellarwp.com.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:42:31] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Nicely done. Thank you very much. I&#8217;ll put all of the links in the show notes, so if you head over to wptavern.com/podcast, search for the episode with Katie and Matt&#8217;s name in it, and you&#8217;ll be able to find everything there. So Katie Keith, Matt Cromwell, thank you so much for chatting to me today. That was fun.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:42:45] <strong>Matt Cromwell:</strong> Thanks.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<p>On the podcast today we have <a href=\"https://x.com/KatieKeithBarn2\">Katie Keith</a> &amp; <a href=\"https://x.com/learnwithmattc\">Matt Cromwell</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Katie is the founder and CEO at Barn2 Plugins, and Matt is co-founder of GiveWP and Senior Director of Customer Experience at StellarWP. They have been running the WP Product Talk podcast together since early 2023, where they interview WordPress product owners to get the inside scoop on running a successful business in the WordPress ecosystem, and they’ve collating much of what they’ve learned on the show to create the ultimate blueprint on how to build a successful WordPress product, which they revealed during their WordCamp Europe presentation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We talk about the world of WordPress product development and marketing. This touches upon topics such as enhancing the WordPress admin interface with additional features that feel like a natural extension, and finding success through organic content and a consistent, user-focused, YouTube strategy.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We also explore important marketing strategies within the WordPress community, emphasising the value of identifying gaps in the market and leveraging event attendance for growth. Katie gives her thoughts on the power of explainer videos focused on solving user problems, and how Google and YouTube work hand-in-hand to surface relevant content.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Matt discusses the challenges of pricing products correctly, setting expectations, and offering strategic discounts without devaluing their worth, focussing on the importance of listening to customer feedback to prioritise future product development. They both provide practical advice on creating a user-friendly product that feels like a part of WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Towards the end of our talk, Katie and Matt get into the value of transparency and the human touch in business, the significance of an up to date &#8220;About Us&#8221; page, and their approach to face-to-face customer interactions.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you’re a WordPress product developer or just interested in the intricate world of WordPress business, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Useful links</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1cWSYOJT9pNXbbaK-XXfXoWi0PE9gh0DuNnNBQ_WBTQI/edit#slide=id.g21e561a403c_0_2480\">Slides from the WCEU presentation discusses in the episode</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wordpress.tv/2024/07/15/we-spoke-with-over-50-different-wordpress-product-owners-heres-what-we-learned/\">Katie and Matt&#8217;s presentation WordPress.tv</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wpproducttalk.com/\">WP Product Talk podcast</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://givewp.com/\">GiveWP</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://barn2.com/\">Barn2</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://stellarwp.com/\">StellarWP</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/themes/kadence/\">Kadence</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/groundhogg/\">Groundhogg</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/fluent-crm/\">Fluent CRM</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.omnisend.com/\">Omnisend</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://instawp.com/\">InstaWP</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://theeventscalendar.com/\">The Events Calendar</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://canny.io/\">Canny</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://featureos.app/\">featureOS</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.mattcromwell.com/topic/shiny-new-plugins/\">Matt&#8217;s Shiny New Plugins blog</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://personalizewp.com/\">PersonalizeWP</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://uichemy.com/\">UiChemy</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://x.com/KatieKeithBarn2\">Katie&#8217;s X</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://x.com/learnwithmattc\">Matt&#8217;s X</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.mattcromwell.com/\">Matt&#8217;s website</a></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 14 Aug 2024 14:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Nathan Wrigley\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:19;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:82:\"Do The Woo Community: Investing Into Proactive Customer Service with Scott Stapely\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=85099\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:63:\"https://dothewoo.io/investing-into-customer-service-with-scott/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:45652:\"<div class=\"wp-block-group has-border-color has-light-gray-background-color has-background has-small-font-size has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-24 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p class=\"has-secondary-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-9acf640b7ba38a84a982fc35d618387f\">This show is sponsored by&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-vertical is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-23 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-5 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-20 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-base-background-color has-background wp-container-content-9 has-global-padding is-content-justification-left is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-19 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<img width=\"500\" height=\"500\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/dothewoo.io/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Omnisend-square.jpg?resize=500%2C500&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-78802\" />\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-container-content-10\"><strong><a href=\"https://your.omnisend.com/onlywoo_dothewoo\">Omnisend</a></strong>: Whether it&#8217;s for integration into your Woo product, or building sites for clients, <strong>Omnisend</strong> is the solution for email and SMS marketing with their CRM solution for WooCommerce shops and your own website.</p>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-6 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-22 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-base-background-color has-background wp-container-content-11 has-global-padding is-content-justification-left is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-21 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<img width=\"525\" height=\"525\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/dothewoo.io/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Airwallex.jpg?resize=525%2C525&ssl=1\" alt=\"Airwallex\" class=\"wp-image-80258\" />\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-container-content-12\"><strong><a href=\"https://www.airwallex.com/integrations/woocommerce?utm_source=701Nn000009vJ0mIAE\">Airwallex</a></strong>: With <strong>Airwallex</strong> merchants are no longer forced to convert their foreign incoming payments into their home market currencies and they can use the funds to pay suppliers internationally.</p>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\nEpisode Transcript\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p>Adam:<br />Hey everyone, this is Adam Weeks from BizChat. Unfortunately, I am not joined by my lovely co-host, Emma Young. She is out of town, busy doing all kinds of stuff, jet-setting around the world. So you are stuck with me as your host. But good news for you. I have a really exciting guest today, Scott Stapley. He is a founder at BigScoots. You may not have heard of them before, but they&#8217;ve been around for quite a while and instead of me just telling you about them, hey Scott, welcome. It&#8217;s good to meet you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Scott:<br />Good morning. Yeah, good to meet you too, Adam. Thanks so much. Pleasure to be here. Scott Stapley, CEO and co-founder of BigScoots, 15 years now, so it&#8217;s been a minute. Exciting though. Very exciting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Adam:<br />I&#8217;m sure time flies when you&#8217;re having fun.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Scott:<br />Yeah, you tell me. Yeah, for sure.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Adam:<br />Well, Scott, in all transparency, this is kind of the first time we&#8217;re getting to meet each other, although I have met some of the people you work with and I met at CloudFest US. One of the things that really stood out to me when I was getting to know more about BigScoots and what you guys do was customer service or client service. I think more specifically, we&#8217;re going to get into some of the nuances of that. And so that&#8217;s what this episode is about. We call this the hook. We&#8217;re hooking people in. If people are curious and want to know more about customer service, client service, best in class, what should we do? We&#8217;re going to get into some of the interesting elements of best practices. Is it worth it? Is it worth the investment? When is it not? And I think people are really going to get some solid takeaways from this. But before we get into that and some of those takeaways, just kind of give us a quick introduction. Where are you at on this big planet and yeah, a little bit more about yourself.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Scott:<br />Yeah, thanks again, Adam. Looking forward to digging into all the nitty and gritty. Me, myself, I live a small life these days in Connecticut just outside of New York. In a previous life, I did a lot of traveling, had the opportunity to live overseas for quite a while with my wife, followed her around in her ventures. But BigScoots has been a labor of love for a very long time. It&#8217;s afforded me the opportunity to work remotely and just kind of deal with the odd business trip. So I&#8217;ve had the opportunity to really explore the world. In my younger years, I went to school for cell and molecular biology of all things. It&#8217;s not all too applicable these days, but it was a fun adventure at the time. But it&#8217;s been, you talk about a career path and sort of a journey to get here.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s just been, you talk a little bit about the topic being customer service. We classify it as customer success. We think there&#8217;s a lot that encompasses customer service and it&#8217;s more than just the client specialists, the account manager, or the sales representative, or whoever might typically fall within that usual role. And we&#8217;ve really kind of had the opportunity to spend the better part of those 15 years really kind of focusing in on that. So that&#8217;s been an adventure and my goal for that entire period of time is to build a business and a service around a very high level of customer success. So yeah, that&#8217;s me in a nutshell.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Adam:<br />Very cool. Yeah, that&#8217;s a great intro and I really appreciate getting that background. One of the things I love about the Do the Woo community in WordPress is it&#8217;s just chock-full of interesting people with just backgrounds that you wouldn&#8217;t have expected. Oh, microbiology. Sure, WordPress. Absolutely. Let&#8217;s put those together. We all have interesting paths. So let&#8217;s jump right into customer success. From a high level, how would you define it? What is customer success? What does that look like? Let&#8217;s start from your perspective, what does that look like?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Scott:<br />Yeah, and I think my perspective as a business owner might have a few facets that are perhaps a little bit different depending on the business that you might be looking at it from. For example, we have metrics these days. We have customer churn and revenue retention and these sorts of things. And you can measure client success in a certain type of way, but it&#8217;s not all too palpable. And I find having your finger on the pulse, ear to the ground, finger in the air, whichever one you&#8217;d like, is really the best way to understand the ebbs and flows of your business and make sure that you&#8217;re doing things right. If your goal is to deliver on your customer success goals, and in my case, for example, that means a lot of inbound leads. I&#8217;m spending a lot of my day on chats and sales tickets and just making sure that I understand what the customers are needing and how we can be doing better.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I wrote a small bio on my LinkedIn like 10 years ago about my job being to understand what we do well and what we can do better. And I&#8217;d say that that&#8217;s still 80, 90% of my day. Naturally, the business still needs to be run. So there&#8217;s a huge portion of my day being spent elsewhere these days. But really understanding with boots on the ground in the weeds so to speak. I mean, that&#8217;s the words that I like to use most regularly. What is actually happening? What are those first words coming out of your sales team&#8217;s fingers, I guess. How are people being greeted? Is it done so in a manner that hits your ultimate customer success goals? And it takes a lot. It takes a lot. It takes an army, it takes a team, takes a village to really do that at every corner, especially when you&#8217;re such a high-touch business like a hosting provider where you&#8217;re effectively a problem dump. People effectively only reach out to you when there&#8217;s an issue. So making sure that you have the right frame of mind and all of the information that you could possibly have available to you to address issues, whether it be billing or support related is incredibly important. So building tools, proactive measures, really training our team, finding the right people. There&#8217;s so much that goes into it, but in the weeds is staying in the weeds no matter how busy you get is extremely critical.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Adam:<br />Awesome. What do you feel, why is it worth it to invest in customer service if someone was saying, Hey, we live in an age of AI is a big deal now, or we can just have lots of help articles, these are smart people, they&#8217;ll figure it out. Sell me on investing in customer service.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Scott:<br />Yeah, this could be a whole multi-hour talking in itself, but it&#8217;s ultimately what we chose to differentiate on. So it&#8217;s ultimately the core of our business. Why is our business successful in an otherwise contracting market? There&#8217;s a lot of other hosting providers who are really, really contracting in really significant ways and we&#8217;re not. We&#8217;re fortunate and lucky enough to be going in the opposite direction. And I think the core reason is what you just mentioned is our investment in customer success and our ability to sort of deliver on that. It&#8217;s not something that happened overnight. I mean you have to do it every day. You have to iterate a hundred times a week and you have to spend many, many years trying to perfect the client customer success lifecycle because it&#8217;s just so hard to do consistently every time. But if you do get it right, I mean you&#8217;re correct.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We live in a world of AI and automation and I think that&#8217;s exactly the reason why customer success is so important these days in client service because how many times have you had a random issue with whatever personal instrument or device or technology or whatever, whether it be your phone or your internet or what have you, reach out to the team, you get a bot in off hours, we&#8217;ll get back to you in four days. Here&#8217;s my email you may or may not get responded to. That&#8217;s just in my view, that is incredibly disappointing. If I have a problem, I would very much like somebody to hear me. I would love to be heard. I would love to know that somebody takes ownership over that problem and I would love for that person to actually be there present speaking to me and making sure that they understand the problem fully.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that&#8217;s what we deliver on is somebody right now you could open up our chat, or this could be four o&#8217;clock in the morning on Christmas Eve and you could speak to somebody, somebody would answer you within 60 seconds, most typically, and they would listen to you, they would hear your problem and they would aim to address it as quickly and as urgently as possible. And there&#8217;s just a freeing experience in my view, when you have that type of customer success or a customer interaction from the customer side. I mean, if you interact with a business and that business, you feel heard and you feel validated and you feel that your problem is actually going to be addressed and done so quickly, that just changes everything as far as how you look at a business. And I think in a world where everything is guide based and AI written and other hosts because they are contracting or maybe pushing margins in certain forms and fashions certainly not all hosts, but it is a difficult world right now, especially in our ecosystem and investing in customer success.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>There&#8217;s a very large burden there from the host to take on as far as training and hiring and maintaining tools and informing your support reps and sort of having that level of availability. So if you can deliver on that, in my opinion, and I think we&#8217;ve seen that in our business sort of lifecycle, is that people really, really, really, really grab onto that and effectively never leave because it&#8217;s difficult to find that level of attention elsewhere. And we&#8217;re not perfect, but we do care. We care a lot and people know that, and I think there&#8217;s huge value</p>\n\n\n\n<p>in it for any industry hosting or otherwise.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Adam:<br />Interesting. Okay, great. Alright. You sold me. I&#8217;m a small business owner in WooCommerce and WordPress and yep, I believe that I need to do to invest in customer success. Where do I start? How do I get this going? I don&#8217;t have infinite resources. And if you were to take that use case, where do you start and then how do you build that out?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Scott:<br />In our own world, I mean hosting, I don&#8217;t know, is all too different from a WooCommerce platform in the sense that there are still certain metrics and numbers and values that we need to hit internally. We were a bootstrap business. We started from the typical, here&#8217;s $20 and then it turns into a server and then the server turns into two servers and 15 years later we have our own data center footprint, but we very much were a bootstrapped, homegrown, invest the proceeds into growing type of model. And I think the difficulty for us, and I think maybe what you&#8217;re getting at is that there&#8217;s a point in time where it can&#8217;t just necessarily be you as the founder or if it is, you need to figure out is your time best spent here or is it best spent elsewhere? I was very fortunate enough to have an amazing technical founder, so my business partner and I, we had an immediate sort of splitting of responsibilities and I would attribute the great amount of success to that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I was able to focus on the business and sales and all the things in that respect. And my business partner Justin, he was able to focus on all of the technical needs of our platform effectively. So that really influenced quite a lot. So a little bit of help, to say the least, would be very helpful with respect to just understanding where your priorities lay and being able to focus on these sorts of things. But you do have to invest in it. There&#8217;s no question about it, and there&#8217;s no immediate return either. In our case, we had to really, really, really look long-term. We had a lot of really early conversations around, okay, this&#8217;s race to bottom budget market. If we bring on a hundred customers next week for a dollar, what&#8217;s that going to do to us three years from now? We have to support these folks.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I think there&#8217;s, there&#8217;s a business planning element to it. There&#8217;s good collaboration amongst your team and there just needs to be a priority focus. Where you invest and how you invest is going to differ depending on your industry and your location and everything else. In our case, it was invest in team as much as possible, create tools and as many monitoring tools as possible so we could influence our team members to be more efficient. So in our case, for example, as a host, we proactively monitor all of our websites. It&#8217;s something unique to BigScoot. So if your website has a problem, whether it be a resource issue, an outage, what have you, we actually know about it and we react to it. So that dramatically reduces the amount of inbound because we&#8217;re reaching out to you and fixing issues before you would otherwise reach back out to us.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That, for example, is a keystone in the way that we&#8217;ve been able to influence our support team and our customer success model because we&#8217;ve just been able to really scale service in a way that services typically unscalable. So I think you need to look at your space. How do you invest in it? I mean, it certainly depends on the particular ecosystem, but having hosted a great number of WooCommerce sites over many years, e-commerce sites and the like, we can certainly identify many folks that have rolled out that sort of platform where they have a product, they have a service offering, whatever it might be, and they pivot more towards the service route of their business and they see growth because of it. And I think they do it in a number of different ways, but this is my story. I&#8217;m sharing how I delivered on it, but I think we&#8217;re in a world where customer success and customer service is just so, so valuable. So whatever you can, I think your dollars are just amplified so much more than iterating on product or offering larger inventory. These things are great and they&#8217;re necessary for business, but the things that really get people coming back in my view is a great experience with a brand or with a business, and that typically starts and ends with customer success, or at least it does in our world.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Adam:<br />So yep. Let&#8217;s say we&#8217;re just getting started and we&#8217;re going to invest in this. It&#8217;s grown beyond you as the founder, so you have a couple of options. I know that there are companies that you can hire that have a call center and you just contract with them and they&#8217;ll take care of you, and that&#8217;s not what you&#8217;ve chosen to do, I don&#8217;t believe. How do you hire for this? How do you staff something like this? Because that first person, that&#8217;s a big investment and you don&#8217;t want to get it wrong. What things have you done that maybe you feel are unique that have made your focus on client success to be successful?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Scott:<br />Yeah. No, it&#8217;s a good question. I mean, everybody&#8217;s business is obviously different. I would say your first hire probably no matter what business you&#8217;re in, although I suppose some don&#8217;t qualify for this, but in most cases, or at least in our case for sure, your first hire relative to your size of business is always going to be your largest expense in almost any business lifecycle. Like the ability to bring on an individual to spend a full-time effort on your business and your business alone and kind of putting yourself in that frame of mind of you&#8217;re taking somebody away potentially from another business or you&#8217;re bringing them into yours and you&#8217;re doing that in a full-time. As a business owner and an entrepreneur, it&#8217;s kind of exciting and scary and you&#8217;re bringing somebody in, you&#8217;re putting all this money forward, you don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s going to work, and there&#8217;s no immediate returns on that person either.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean, that person is servicing customers, they&#8217;re handling support tickets, they&#8217;re doing whatever it is you might need them to be doing, but the idea of what is their amplification within your business, it&#8217;s a scary thought. When is the right time? I mean, frankly, as soon as you can afford it, in my opinion. We were in a position where we were in college at the time. I mean, to add on to my story a little bit further, I mean, we used student loans to support ourselves while we built the business, and then we did the whole thing. We really invested in ourselves. So at that time, that&#8217;s when we actually brought on somebody is really early on. So we weren&#8217;t paying ourselves. We were actually paying our employee at the time. We had one employee still with us. By the way. It&#8217;s amazing to have them here with us as long as they have, but if you can afford to bring somebody on to support you, you most definitely should because that is going to really amplify and improve your brand image in many more ways than you think.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>They will buy their direct work product, but also through just the random comments, the extra, catch it in an off hour where you may have otherwise been grabbing a sandwich. I mean, it is so easy to see the amplification of a great team once you have them sort of in your fold and you&#8217;re talking to them, you&#8217;re having team meetings, you&#8217;re seeing all the great ideas that they have after they&#8217;ve seen your clients and after they&#8217;ve seen your product. And it is just amazing to see the acceleration that you get once you start building an amazing team around you. And the earlier you can do that, the better. Now in terms of call centers and third party support and these sorts of things, I mean, there&#8217;s certainly a business model where that works. I mean, if we take a look around at most of our billion dollar competitors, I mean, they&#8217;ve created an entire conglomerates around these types of services and they&#8217;re able to drive pricing because of it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So there&#8217;s a winning scenario there for a lot of end users. However, there is just going to be a lack of ownership and a lack of care and concern that those individuals are going to have because they don&#8217;t live and breathe your product in the same way that an internal team member might. So it&#8217;s always going to cost you 3, 4, 5 times as much to bring somebody internal to you. But in my case, for example, we&#8217;ve had that person for over a decade, and that same person has become an extraordinarily key member of our team, has influenced so many decisions. And I mean, that&#8217;s just one example. I mean, every team member has their own influence in our team, but bringing that person on as early as possible has just allowed us to make more better decisions more often than we otherwise could have by ourselves. Having a call center, you&#8217;re not going to get that same type of experience. So that&#8217;s our position. But certainly there&#8217;s many.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Adam:<br />Yeah, it does go to the thing that the end of the day it&#8217;s about people and investing in people makes all the difference. Finding the right people for your team. When you&#8217;re looking for people who are going to fill that customer, that client success role, are there any specific attributes that you&#8217;re looking for? Is it technical? Is it they seem nice? What is it that you&#8217;re looking for?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Scott:<br />Yeah, a bit of both, but you need a good culture fit. Most certainly. I mean, our team is large enough these days that you&#8217;re always going to find great partnership, great collaboration with other team members around you. The key that we&#8217;ve found really for bringing people on, everybody&#8217;s human at the end of the day, and the more welcoming and the more collaborative and the more approachable you are as a business owner and as a team who&#8217;s onboarding that individual, I find the larger chance of success that that person gets acclimated and just loves their position and really gets on board with the company. And I think</p>\n\n\n\n<p>just sort of that human nature of really being welcoming and offering that person the opportunity that you would otherwise want to be offered if given that kind of turn of tables just influences that chance of success.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Much, much, much more. So when we&#8217;re looking for new hires, we really look for somebody who&#8217;s eager and motivated to get into something new, something that they might not have seen before, because that is ultimately the type of service we offer. We offer something different. We offer this really high touch, really handholding, we call it site-specific management where we&#8217;re actually logging into the WordPress platform. We&#8217;re influencing actually plugin changes and updates and stuck PHP processes and all the rest of it. And you really need somebody who&#8217;s motivated and eager to take those extra steps. Somebody reaches out to you with a problem, maybe they can&#8217;t log into their email, something a little bit more basic. Take that opportunity or take that touch point and that opportunity upon you to also, let&#8217;s take a look around. Let&#8217;s make sure their caching is enabled properly. Let&#8217;s make sure there&#8217;s no security concerns or outdated plugin or something that we could otherwise do more for them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And that person doesn&#8217;t necessarily need any additional technical expertise to be able to do that. But if they are eager and if they are motivated, that&#8217;s where you really start to see that winning combination. When we look for individuals, we certainly need the WordPress technical expertise and Linux system administration as well. Those are sort of the kind of keynotes of what we do here. However, we can train to a senior capacity because we have so much team collaboration, and ultimately it&#8217;s called a deep bench. We don&#8217;t have an influx of replied-to tickets. We don&#8217;t have this scenario where we don&#8217;t have time to spend with new onboards, so we can really spend the time and effort to train from a technical perspective. What we can&#8217;t do is get somebody excited about customer success and customer service in the same way that they might otherwise bring to the table. So that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re looking for. I mean, that&#8217;s kind of a certain respect and non-answer, but we really, it&#8217;s hard to define that too. A resume doesn&#8217;t necessarily do it in interviews. Sometimes it&#8217;s difficult to really perceive, but if you can get the energy out of that individual, I mean that&#8217;s worth everything regardless of their technical position.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Adam:<br />Yeah, thank you. From the client perspective, I&#8217;ve got a problem, something&#8217;s not working, I don&#8217;t understand, and so I&#8217;m going to reach out and I want this problem fixed. I&#8217;m looking for a person, I&#8217;m looking for someone who&#8217;s going to fix it quickly, but I&#8217;m not necessarily looking to make a best friend. I just need this thing fixed. My business is in jeopardy, it&#8217;s late at night. I&#8217;m struggling over it. What are maybe some of the types of things you do? Are there any investments? Are there any tools that you&#8217;re using that maybe unique that can help a customer get their problem solved quicker? And I&#8217;ll even throw out some words like is AI, is there some tool there that might make it faster? You&#8217;re still dealing with a person or what types of things that are you investing in to make that experience? Or is it just no, this person is good and can answer your question. Any special tools or just curious about that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Scott:<br />Yeah, so not to fire too many people up here, but AI is not smart enough to identify human problems and website issues to the extent that they need to be. I mean, there&#8217;s multiple variables. There&#8217;s a server level, there&#8217;s a site level, there&#8217;s a network level. You need start using edge components. You start using object caching. You start using site, page caching, cache, excluding. There&#8217;s so many elements to this that AI cannot really influence to that extent. What AI can be used for. I mean, just to specifically note on that AI conversation is it can digest data and spit out some great results. So in our case, the way that we&#8217;re leveraging AI, for example, is in a similar capacity to what you had just mentioned. So we have what I would distinguish as just support gold, like a golden bank of support tickets. We have over a million fully answered completed support tickets, and every single one of those has an extensive amount of detail in a lot of cases, very unique attributes to each.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So being able to digest that amount of data and spit out some key results related to a potential issue, all on the admin side, just to influence the atom, creative support efficiency, create tools. Understanding is custom scripts, custom excludes, RegX, whatever the case might be. We&#8217;ve probably seen it before. And AI can help accelerate support responses by just having a database that they can ultimately freely and a very flexible search. That&#8217;s really kind of full stop as far as AI is concerned. On our end, we feel very strongly that everything else needs to come from a human, however, tools can influence them. So AI is a tool the way that we see it. I mentioned proactive monitoring being a keynote. So for example, if you reach out to us, we would&#8217;ve identified we could slow chase the PHP logs. We could do these things in advance of you reaching out to us.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In an ideal world, in most cases, we&#8217;ll reach out to you. So that&#8217;ll fix a step there. But we&#8217;re influencing our admins by providing them meaningful data, meaningful tools, meaningful monitoring to be able to really accelerate and create efficiency around support. So we do a lot, there&#8217;s well over a hundred variations on these tools that we create. Happy to go into detail on all of them, but it&#8217;s really about, yes, it&#8217;s about creating tools, about creating monitoring, and that therefore influences customer success as well. If you have these tools and you have this efficiency, your response time goes down, your response detail goes up, and your ability to really solve problems for customers is that much quicker. I would also add that freeing of time and that efficiency is really a key way in which we&#8217;ve been able to amplify our service. So as an example, if a customer approaches us, I mean, a very common thing with WooCommerce being that WooCommerce is highly dynamic is that it eats up a lot of CPU resources within the hosting environment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>CPU is going to be your bottleneck. CPU is also very expensive. That&#8217;s how everything is effectively classed in the cloud community is you have a certain level of CPU, you&#8217;ll get more memory, you&#8217;ll get outsized storage. You&#8217;ll be paying for these additional resources that you ultimately don&#8217;t need. PHP workers are also kind of couched within that as well. Ultimately, CPU is your core resource. Do you necessarily need to upgrade the CPU every time you have a slow admin page or a 22nd cart checkout? I mean, the answer is most definitely no. There&#8217;s a lot of different ways in which certain plugins interact with the cart. For example, are you caching or excluding the right things on various pages? Are you influencing the way in which PHP processes actually run or get completed? Are you creating the right optimizations in the database when you actually need to?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I mean, all these things are best addressed by a seasoned system admin who has seen where WooCommerce and WordPress and Linux a million times over. It&#8217;s very difficult to acquire that type of high touch in the hosting world for reasons we&#8217;ve already talked about. But being able to reach out to somebody, have those people, have tools that have already informed them of these various issues and have the ability to dive deeper into them without necessarily taking support time away from other people is kind of the recipe to success as it pertains to customer success. So I mean, we originally started talking about customer success and how we&#8217;re able to deliver on it. We&#8217;ve really formed a whole business around it. I mean, creating tools, owning our own infrastructure, building out our own network. I mean, everything comes down to being able to offer better service, whether it be creating efficiency, opening up margins, whatever it is, it&#8217;s all coming back and reinvested into.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Adam:<br />So that is an interesting point that you brought up about and how I typically think of customer client success as we&#8217;ve been talking about, as I have a problem, so let me reach out to this company that I have a contract with because I need something fixed, something&#8217;s broken. And what you&#8217;re all mentioning is that, well, of course, yes, that in addition to we can reach out proactively and maybe solve something before it comes a problem. I imagine that there&#8217;s a couple of potential issues there with like, wait, why are they calling me? Are they just trying to sell me something? How do you think about this idea of proactively kind of being this partner in their business and helping solve problems before they become problems without being salesy?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Scott:<br />Yeah, sometimes it can be tricky. I mean, the hosting piece of it is interesting. So I mentioned to you the most critical issue and your bottleneck most typically in all WooCommerce-related problems comes down to CPU. If you could have an infinite amount of CPU, it almost doesn&#8217;t matter how poorly your theme interacts with various plugins in your checkout and so forth. But infinite CPU is not realistic. Also, as you scale your CPU into more cores to allow more visitors and more threads to interact with that CPU in the PHP, you&#8217;re going to end up with a much slower CPU clock speed as well. So it&#8217;s kind of like an inverse thought process. You upgrade your CPU, but what you&#8217;re actually ending up with is a slower responding site. Maybe the issue of the actual timeouts gets fixed, but it might take a ten-second load time to a 22nd load time, and that&#8217;s not what you&#8217;re looking for.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So how do you address this? We have a baseline. So again, kind of all circling back to customer success, but we build and maintain our own infrastructure. We&#8217;ve been infrastructure providers. We haven&#8217;t talked about this, but we started out as infrastructure providers. We provided and infrastructure management for companies in the Chicago land area who at the time that predates AWS and</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Azure and what have you. So we would take what would otherwise be a locally hosted platform like a hospital or what have you, and it we&#8217;d manage that infrastructure and we would do it with this sort of enterprise level of service, saw the writing on the wall, and we pivoted towards WordPress because we love WordPress. We love the idea of building, working around folks who actually own and operate these sites and just working in this ecosystem. It&#8217;s where we want to be.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We knew that from day one, we took that enterprise platform and that sort of enterprise sales and service mentality brought it into WordPress, and that that&#8217;s kind of the starting to our customer success story, but owning our own infrastructure and being that infrastructure provider makes us unique. And that&#8217;s one of the key ways in which we deliver on WooCommerce in particular is because if you own and operate your infrastructure, you don&#8217;t have to deal with, let&#8217;s call it the cloud margin problem, where you&#8217;re getting a three or four X negative return on your CPU resource. So if you&#8217;re an individual, and what I mean by that is that if you scale up your, let&#8217;s call it just an AWS instance for the sake of just conversation, what you&#8217;re going to end up with is you&#8217;re going to end up with a much larger platform with resources that you otherwise don&#8217;t need and perhaps are not optimized to the extent that they otherwise should be.<br />So are your PHP processes optimized? Your database is optimized, so on and so forth. If you build out your own platform and you do so with more CPU resources that are more resource efficient, in addition to optimizing the platform itself like the WordPress environment and WooCommerce, you kind of come at this from a double-edged sword where you optimize the running processes, but you also optimize the actual physical resources themselves. And just having that as a baseline creates a lot of proactive service improvements as well. For example, the salesy or marketing numbers that we use is if you were to reduce your footprint from a cloud-based managed WordPress provider to an infrastructure-based cloud-based, managed WordPress provider, you&#8217;re going to see about three or four times the resources for the same dollar spent. So it&#8217;s just sort of baked into the model to offer more service focused improvements, and that just comes through more resource efficiency.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So there&#8217;s a lot of proactive services that we can do there, and that&#8217;s not really salesy or marketing, it&#8217;s just the nature in which our business operates. We&#8217;ve sort of taken what is otherwise a problem to manage the infrastructure. We&#8217;ve taken that burden on ourselves and we benefit the end user by providing that to them. We don&#8217;t charge them more, we don&#8217;t provide less reliability. We don&#8217;t take any negatives out of that. We just take that on as a challenge. We offer that, and in turn, it improves the service lifecycle for a customer as well. So I think there&#8217;s a number of different avenues that you can do that sort of thing in various different industries and ecosystems. You can own a piece of the problem that is otherwise deferred off to a third party or maybe the end user themselves. You improve it, you validate it, you own it for them, and it nets benefits to everybody. I mean, in your case, you get the service wins. So</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Adam:<br />What I kind of distill that down into is be a partner, solve problems like they&#8217;ve, the customer has trusted you with this part of their business and being a good steward of that trust. Is that what I&#8217;m hearing?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Scott:<br />Yeah, certainly. I mean, I love the word partner. It&#8217;s what we use all this time. It&#8217;s what I use. We expect to be a partner rather than just a service provider. I mean, we don&#8217;t want to be the people that you just call once every 24 months because your credit card expires and you need to update your billing or something. We want to be somebody that you&#8217;re leaning on regularly, especially in the context of WooCommerce, because things are always changing. If you fix a problem with WooCommerce, like a lot of these websites, these heavy traffic websites that really have a lot of focus on performance. If you fix a problem, you could be let&#8217;s kind of turning the dials ever so slightly, a PP update, a plugin update. We have to remember that WooCommerce is a community solution. So every single plugin is created by a different developer that doesn&#8217;t necessarily test against other development pipelines and PP updates might, the plugin update might lag behind a PHP update. There could be any number of variety, even reasons why something might fall out of sync again. So just being that partner and just ensuring that you&#8217;re always there to be helpful is absolutely critical. For sure. I mean, customer success is not reasonably attainable or high level of customer success without meaningful partnership and really being invested in your customers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Adam:<br />That&#8217;s very cool, Scott. Well, I feel like this is a topic that we could just keep talking about for a really long time. We don&#8217;t have a really long time. We&#8217;re wrapping up getting close to being done here. Before we do, if someone, like I said, we could keep talking about this if they wanted to, like Hey, want to get in touch with you at Big Scoots, I&#8217;ve got more questions. Scott, you said something on the Do the Woo podcast that really sparked my interest. How would they get in touch with you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Scott:<br />Me personally, I&#8217;m just as available as the rest of our team. Bottom right hand corner of our website, talk to a human. Hey, I saw Scott. I&#8217;d love to talk to him. You&#8217;ll find me separate to that, scott@bigscoots.com. Always happy to give out my personal email. I&#8217;ve always been chained to the hip as far as my email and myself goes. So if there&#8217;s anything I can do to help answer any questions regardless of coming over to Big Scoots or not, I mean, I&#8217;m just very happy to be a part of the community help where I can, if I can offer any advice or any help whatsoever, very happy to. But I mean, thank you very much for having me on. Always love talking about this stuff. As you can probably guess, pretty passionate about customer success. I mean, that&#8217;s how we built our whole business. So there&#8217;s a lot of mistakes that we&#8217;ve made over time. I like to think that we&#8217;ve had enough of a timeline to rectify those mistakes and improve on them quite dramatically. So time has been on our side. We&#8217;re excited to be here, excited to be in the community. It was awesome to meet you. I didn&#8217;t meet you, but James mentioned about your conversation that was awesome at CloudFest, so just happy to really engage, be more part of the community as much as we can. So just get in touch, reach out happy. Happy to help if I can.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Adam:<br />Sounds good. And hopefully we&#8217;ll be seeing some more Big Scoots at some of the different WordCamp and CloudFest events that are coming up here soon.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Scott:<br />Yeah, WordCamp US will be there. If anybody else is.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Adam:<br />Portland&#8217;s going to be fun. Yeah, I just got my plane tickets and it&#8217;s going to a good time. Well, thank you everybody for joining us. This has been another episode of BizChat from the Do the Woo. We hope you guys have had a great day and that you learned something. We&#8217;ll see you guys soon.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Scott:<br />Thanks so much.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode of <strong><em>Woo BizChat</em></strong>, host <strong>Adam Weeks</strong> welcomes <strong>Scott Stapley, CEO and co-founder of BigScoots</strong>. Scott shares his insights on the importance of customer success, defining it as a proactive approach that goes beyond traditional customer service. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>He discusses BigScoots&#8217; journey from a bootstrap business to a major player in the hosting industry, emphasizing their unique focus on personalized, high-touch support. The conversation moves into the challenges and rewards of investing in customer success, the role of AI, and the significance of building a dedicated, motivated team. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Scott also highlights the value of being a true partner to clients, solving issues proactively, and maintaining a commitment to exceptional service. </p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Takeaways</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Importance of Customer Success</strong>: The importance of customer success is highlighted, emphasizing its role in long-term business growth and client retention. It goes beyond just solving problems; it&#8217;s about creating a proactive and personalized experience.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Proactive Service</strong>: By monitoring and addressing issues before they become problems, companies can enhance customer satisfaction and reduce the need for reactive support.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Team Investment</strong>: Investing in the right team is essential. Hiring people who are motivated and align with the company&#8217;s culture can significantly amplify customer success efforts.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Role of AI</strong>: While AI can help with data analysis and support efficiency, the human touch is irreplaceable for addressing complex issues and providing personalized service.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Infrastructure Ownership</strong>: Owning and managing infrastructure can provide significant advantages in resource efficiency and service reliability, especially for hosting providers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Partner Approach</strong>: Treating customers as partners rather than just service recipients fosters trust and long-term relationships. Being a proactive and reliable partner can differentiate a business in a competitive market.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Long-Term Investment</strong>: Building a robust customer success framework takes time and consistent effort. The benefits include higher customer loyalty, better retention rates, and positive word-of-mouth.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Adaptability and Iteration</strong>: Continuously iterating on processes and tools based on customer feedback and needs is vital for maintaining high levels of service.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Customer-Centric Model</strong>: A customer-centric approach, focusing on individual needs and tailored solutions, can lead to exceptional service experiences and business growth.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Community Engagement</strong>: Engaging with the community and being accessible to customers can strengthen relationships and enhance the company&#8217;s reputation.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Links</h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-stapley-0b519023/\"><strong>Scott on LinkedIn</strong></a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.bigscoots.com/\">BigScoots.com</a></strong></li>\n</ul>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 14 Aug 2024 09:06:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:20;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:50:\"HeroPress: A Journalist’s Journey into WordPress\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:56:\"https://heropress.com/?post_type=heropress-essays&p=7269\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:146:\"https://heropress.com/essays/a-journalists-journey-into-wordpress/#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=a-journalists-journey-into-wordpress\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:10730:\"<img width=\"1024\" height=\"512\" src=\"https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/081224-min.jpg\" class=\"attachment-large size-large wp-post-image\" alt=\"Pull Quote: I’ve found a way to blend my love of writing and tech—and I have WordPress to thank for that.\" /><h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-small-town-girl\">Small town girl</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Friends and family who know me well aren’t surprised that I publish The Repository, a weekly email about WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You see, I grew up in Zeehan, a one-way street of a town on the west coast of Tasmania, the island that’s at the bottom of Australia. The population at the time was around 2,000 and everyone knew everyone.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>My Dad worked at the nearby tin mine and my Mum wrangled me and my two younger brothers while working as a bookkeeper and volunteering at the local neighbourhood centre.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dad loved gadgets. He was always following us around with whatever video camera was new at the time. He bought a CD player when they were first released (John Farnham was high on rotation). He also bought an Amiga 600 (I was obsessed with Golden Axe and Lemmings).</p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>It wasn’t long before our computer was replaced with a Windows 95 machine. When Mum wasn’t doing her word processing, I was writing stories. I loved stories and had my heart set on working at a newspaper one day.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>At 14, I started helping out with the weekly community newsletter. Locals would drop off their submissions at shops around town and then I’d design each A5 booklet in Microsoft Publisher, print them off and fold them. Locals could then buy a copy for 20 cents. It was fun for a while but man, folding and stapling several dozen copies was a chore! I received an Australia Day Community Award for my efforts.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Writing and designing the newsletter led to playing with web pages and teaching myself HTML and CSS. Since we didn’t have the internet at home, I saved up my pocket money to buy those magazines you could get with CDs attached.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>At 18, I went to university. I clearly recall speaking to a journalism lecturer at an open day about my interest in completing an arts degree with a double major in journalism and computer science. She laughed and asked, “Why would you want to do that?”</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I guess my Mum’s stubbornness also rubbed off on me. I graduated with my degree (and double major!) and went on to work as a newspaper reporter for Fairfax and later News Ltd. I loved working as a journalist. As much as I enjoyed reporting rounds and covering politics for a while, it was a joy and a privilege writing other people’s stories when I moved to community news reporting and editing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But all good things must come to an eye. I eventually left news reporting, disillusioned that I was working harder than ever for a wage that would never buy me a house, and I was filing stories that were half-finished because they had to go up ASAP for social media.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-hello-wordpress\">Hello WordPress!</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>It was time to explore my other major. I landed a job writing for WPMU DEV, a main-stay of the WordPress business community. It was my first time working professionally with WordPress after many years creating websites for family, friends and community groups.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I learned a lot. I had the writing chops and knew how to use WordPress (I’d come a long way since my hand-coding days!), but it was a baptism of fire learning to become a power user and create top-notch content for our mostly agency and freelancer audience.</p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Not long after starting at WPMU DEV, I went to my first WordCamp, WordCamp Melbourne 2013. Walking into the event, I felt way out of my depth, especially as I’m an introvert attending alone. I stayed for a couple of sessions and then left.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Living in Australia, it’s not easy getting to WordCamps because they’re so far away! Not to be put off by my first experience, I went to WordCamp Europe 2015 in Seville, Spain, and had an incredible time hanging out with colleagues, meeting new people, and melting in the extreme heat.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Suffice to say, WPMU DEV was a fun place to work, but eventually it was time to move on. I was ready to go out on my own and launched Words By Birds, a copy and content studio. I worked mostly with WordPress businesses, producing high-quality content, copywriting and strategies.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>One of my favourite clients was MailPoet, headed up at the time by co-founder Kim Gjerstad. We clicked immediately. We’d both worked as journalists and talked a lot about starting some kind of newsletter together that focused on WordPress news. Eventually, we stopped talking and started doing. On November 8, 2019, we sent the first issue of The Repository to 49 subscribers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Kim handled the business and marketing side of things while I focused on writing. We were a great team, and it’s a collaboration I’m very grateful for, especially in hindsight.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Not too long into The Repository’s history, I took a few weeks off to focus on another important project. My son was born in February 2020, and you can guess what happens next. As the COVID-19 pandemic kicked off, it felt like the world went into hibernation with me. I happily spent my days at home learning to be a mum without the pressure of the outside world. It felt like great timing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, that lasted six weeks. Soon, I was back at it, writing The Repository. I read articles and scrolled social media during the week and spent Fridays writing. With a newborn often attached to me, I had to find creative ways to write. When my son was really little, I could pop him in a wrap and wear him while I typed at my kitchen table. I wrote while he napped. I wrote at night. I even wrote with only one hand when I needed to breastfeed.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Like all good businesses in the WordPress space, MailPoet was acquired. Kim graciously gave me his share in The Repository and left WordPress to work on other things. It was also around this time that my career took a turn and I stopped working full-time in the WordPress space. For the next five years, I headed up communications and marketing for a creative tech company and then worked in local government, leading the design excellence narrative for the city where I now live, Melbourne.</p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>While my head was in other worlds Monday to Thursday, my heart was in WordPress and The Repository on Fridays. </p>\n</blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>It felt like both a privilege and a burden. I mean, who wants to spend their Fridays working to deadline? While I loved, loved, loved digging into the WordPress space every week and writing about it, I also loathed missing out on dinners with friends, long weekends away with my incredibly supportive husband, and – more often than not – working late into the night. Still, I continued to do it because I couldn’t let go (thanks for passing on your stubbornness, Mum).</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-cue-career-crisis\">Cue: career crisis</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>At the start of 2024, I was at a crossroads. The Repository was taking longer to write because news sources were drying up (I’m looking at you WPTavern) forcing me to spend longer researching stories and often having to write more to fill in the gaps. What used to take a day to write was taking two days to write. Meanwhile, my job outside of WordPress was fine but I wasn’t passionate about it. I was good at it but I didn’t <em>feel</em> good about it.</p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>WordCamps have a funny way of putting things into perspective. Amid my career crisis, I booked tickets to WordCamp Asia 2024 in Taipei, Taiwan, and I’m so glad I did.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p>Walking into the venue, one of the first people I ran into was Adam Warner from GoDaddy, whose sponsorship of The Repository through the pandemic ensured I could keep it running. I met Birgit Pauli-Haack from Automattic for the first time and it felt like catching up with an old friend. I found myself sitting next to fellow Melburnian Lawrence Ladomery from WP BizDev at the marketing table on Contributor Day. I caught up with Lesley Sim from Newsletter Glue, whose perspective on business I greatly admire – she has a great way of cutting through the crap.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It was fun meeting Nathan Wrigley from WP Builds in the media room (and fangirling over each other’s work!). I got a chance to sit down with the very impressive Miriam Schwab from Elementor. I later ran into Human Made’s Ryan McCue, another Aussie, who bailed me up in a cafe for an insightful chat after he saw my Repository-branded tote bag.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p>At the end of day two, feeling tired and social-ed out, I went to the food hall at Taipei 101 for a quick dinner but ran into Guildenberg’s Jonathan Wold (and Lesley again!) who talked me through my business. Last but not least, on day two, I had the pleasure of having lunch with Bob Dunn of Do the Woo fame.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yeah, yeah, I’m name-dropping. I met and spoke to a lot of people at WordCamp Asia, but it was these people – who I admire and respect – whose invaluable advice led me to realise I needed to go home and quit my job and get back to working with WordPress. So I did.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"h-the-future\">The future</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Fast forward to today. I still publish The Repository. In fact, I’m expanding it to publish proper news articles on the website soon. The email newsletter isn’t going anywhere – after five years, I’m very much attached to it and can’t wait to make it shorter and punchier once I can link to longer stories on the website. I have a vision for the next 12 months and I’m excited to see how things pan out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I’d like to think my younger self would be proud of what I’m doing today. I’ve found a way to blend my love of writing and tech—and I have WordPress, and the generosity of spirit that defines WordPress people, to thank for that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And to that lecturer who thought I was silly to study journalism <em>and</em> computer science, well, who’s laughing now?</p>\n<p>The post <a href=\"https://heropress.com/essays/a-journalists-journey-into-wordpress/\">A Journalist’s Journey into WordPress</a> appeared first on <a href=\"https://heropress.com\">HeroPress</a>.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 13 Aug 2024 10:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:9:\"Rae Morey\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:21;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:91:\"Do The Woo Community: Diving into WordPress 6.6 with Insights from Mary Baum and Meher Bala\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=85113\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:90:\"https://dothewoo.io/diving-into-wordpress-6-6-with-insights-from-mary-baum-and-meher-bala/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:42208:\"Episode Transcript\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p>Abha:<br />Hello and welcome to the WordPress Way. It&#8217;s Do the Woo time yet again. You&#8217;re here with Abha Thakor and we&#8217;re talking about all things WordPress as you would expect. But more importantly we&#8217;re talking about the new release 6.6 just out and we&#8217;ve got lots of things to share. But also in this episode we thought we would answer some of the questions that you&#8217;ve all been sending in about how to get involved, how to get past the worry about getting involved, and also some of the tips from people who have been engaged in the recent processes. So a little bit more different than our usual release series, but at the end of the year in November, we will be doing a reflection on all the releases of this year and a bit more technical stuff too. So make sure you join us for that. In the studio today, we&#8217;re doing some globetrotting again, we&#8217;ve got Meher Bala joining us direct from India, and we have Mary Baum joining us from the US. Hello ladies.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mary:<br />Hello ladies. Hey everyone.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />So thank you both for joining. I know you probably had quite a lot of 6.6 in your heads for the last few weeks. Meher, you&#8217;ve been the release coordinator for this major release and the first time as a release coordinator, not just shadowing so much, been a very exciting time. And Mary, you&#8217;ve been leading Marcos and also being involved with some other component stuff, so it&#8217;s really great to have you both with us and we&#8217;re going to have some conversations today also about component maintenance and those who listen regularly to the show, know that we often talk about all the different ways that you can get involved with WordPress because it is our software and our project and that&#8217;s for everybody, wherever you are around the world. So we&#8217;re going to touch on those things a bit more.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mary:<br />Coming off a release coordinating of six five, I cannot be more proud of Meher who did an absolutely phenomenal job with the release of 6.6, and it was not easy and my heart just sings for the great job you did and for you in general, you are a rising star.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Meher:<br />Thank you. Thank you for inviting me to the show. Going from Marcomms to release coordinator, it&#8217;s different but it&#8217;s new. It&#8217;s something different in a release than doing Marcomms</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha <br />And I think that&#8217;s one of the things we want to get across today is that you don&#8217;t have to just get involved in a release in the areas of where you are professionally working. It can also be in another area that you want to develop and there are so many jobs in release. It doesn&#8217;t have to be just on the squad. A squad is an amazing place to be, but actually it&#8217;s a whole community that brings the release together and there are so many opportunities and Maher&#8217;s going to share some of the testing ones a bit later in this show as well. So ladies, I&#8217;m going to start with some of my favorite things from the release and as previous docs co-lead and Marcos and having been involved in various other bits of the release this time, it was really interesting to be focusing a bit more on the component side and to see some of the things that people have been talking about and wanting and we haven&#8217;t quite got there as a community to achieve in previous releases, but to be in this, one of the things we&#8217;re going to start with is the site editor experience in WordPress because it really has transformed in recent releases.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><br />And I think that&#8217;s one of the things we want to get across today is that you don&#8217;t have to just get involved in a release in the areas of where you are professionally working. It can also be in another area that you want to develop and there are so many jobs in release. It doesn&#8217;t have to be just on the squad. A squad is an amazing place to be, but actually it&#8217;s a whole community that brings the release together and there are so many opportunities and Meher&#8217;s going to share some of the testing ones a bit later in this show as well. So ladies, I&#8217;m going to start with some of my favorite things from the release and as previous Docs Co-Lead and Marcomms and having been involved in various other bits of the release this time, it was really interesting to be focusing a bit more on the component side and to see some of the things that people have been talking about and wanting and we haven&#8217;t quite got there as a community to achieve in previous releases. One of the things we&#8217;re going to start with is the site editor experience in WordPress because it really has transformed in recent releases.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mary:<br />I just redid Support Inclusion in Tech website over the weekend, mostly the typography and I&#8217;ve still got a couple of things, but I did change the theme to 2024 and we were already on 6.6. I&#8217;m using the grid layout on the homepage, extensive use of the font library from 6.5, smoothed out and refined in 6.6, and we redid the header, we redid everything and everything is so much smoother. I&#8217;ve never redone an entire design in a day.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />It is a lot slicker and a lot quicker now with the new facilities that we have quicker.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mary:<br />And quicker and quicker, and things take the first time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />Which is really important that when you get things that work when you first do it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mary:<br />Yeah, yeah. Yes. As somebody who has tried to estimate how long something&#8217;s going to take and been off by a factor of five or ten, and then having to do things over.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />Also with the layouts. Mary, you&#8217;ve been talking about negative spacing. Do you want to share a little bit about why that is useful? Because as a term people might think, well what is that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mary:<br />Well, as an example is that the way we&#8217;re doing testimonials. Winstina Hughes is the founder of Support Inclusion in Tech, which does pair up WordCamp speakers with funding to get them travel. So when you&#8217;ve been picked to speak then you can submit an application and get matched with a company who can underwrite your travel expenses on the same continent. So no flying over oceans at this moment to make the best use of the resources. But at any rate, we had testimonials on the homepage and we have the person&#8217;s name at one side and then underneath, which makes it a subhead instead of a kicker. Yes, I am a typography addict and to get the little subhead close enough to the headline that they fit together as a unit, we need to make the top margin on the subhead zero and sometimes we need to make the bottom margin on the headline negative just to get them close enough together. In other cases you might want to have two pictures overlapping. You need to have one or the other have margins that are perhaps negative one REM or negative two rems to have them open. Let&#8217;s say you want to do a Venn diagram, particularly a Venn diagram in a pattern, where you will have text inside the parts of the circle that overlap and the parts that don&#8217;t, that change. For that matter,</p>\n\n\n\n<p><br />you might have that as a locked pattern that you then or a synced pattern that you then can override by changing that text and just have that ready to go.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />WordPress 6.6 introduces these negative margins and the custom shadows, and it really does help you make those eye popping designs and because you can add them directly in the editor for the blocks that support those margin controls, you&#8217;ve got so much more flexibility. You could do this before with the theme JSON, which allows you to create all these overlapping elements, but to be able to do it in the way we can do it now is so much quicker. As Mary has said, it just keeps getting quicker and quicker. We also have these featured image blocks so that we can use customizable block shadows and all of this just helps us to make these pages look a little bit better, but also gives a little bit more control to our end users. Speaking of end users, if you are wanting to know more about how to do something or if you want to even write documentation for end users because you love a new feature, the documentation team will absolutely welcome you to come and help.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><br />And they&#8217;re still working on the documentation for 6.6 as they do at every release and their work is amazing and they have contributors from across the world, so do get in touch if you want to be put into contact with them and we&#8217;ll put the links in the show guide as well. I&#8217;m just going to go over to Meher. Meher, obviously in a release like this when you&#8217;re not just, you&#8217;re incorporating lots of the Gutenberg releases that have happened before and you&#8217;re hoping somethings will land, you keep testing. What is that like being release coordinator?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Meher:<br />Being a Release coordinator for any Word press release, it&#8217;s a little tough and exciting at the same time because you have to keep a track on what is going to land and what is not going to land due to any tech issues, which will cause a lot of sites to stop working or break. The role of the release coordinator just to check in with all the teams to make sure everything is on track. If something is getting pulled out from the release for whatever reasons, it&#8217;s informed to the world that before the release this is not going to be there. So people don&#8217;t have that expectation that they want to see this feature and the feature is not available.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />It is that moving feast, isn&#8217;t it? And it really is that live environment, which is amazing, exciting, very stressful at times I&#8217;m sure, but also being part of a bigger picture. So Meher, before you joined as release coordinator, obviously you work as a senior developer already using WordPress. Did you know what was involved in a release? Did you have a concept of how it came together, the amount of people that were involved and the amount of testing that it included?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Meher:<br />Right now, yes, because I have been a part of multiple releases in the past, but when I first came into the release in 5.6 in the documentation team, I was not aware of what goes into a release. I used to read occasionally the release parties but sometimes it gets too late at my end, occasionally just used to read it but not participate. But from 5.6, I became part of the squad. I got to know which teams are there, what roles individuals play, and how does the entire release take place. Becoming a release coordinator was helpful because I&#8217;ve already done a lot of releases as a Marcomms Co-Lead after 5.7. It was a new experiment.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />And I think it really does make a difference If you&#8217;ve shadowed before, I think I&#8217;ve been involved now in releases since 4.7 and every release you learn more and you learn from other people, which is one of the beauties of working and contributing to WordPress is that you have that opportunity. And the same with WooCommerce. We&#8217;ve got a fantastic community growing around us and Do The Woo and being part of that learning experience for yourself as well as others is a challenge, but it&#8217;s also very, very satisfying. So Meher, when you put together a release like the ones that you&#8217;ve been just doing recently, what&#8217;s the feeling when as a developer when you take your release hat off and you go back to look at the release. As a developer, what is the feeling that you have when you first find a new WordPress release?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Meher:<br />As a developer, once a release is out, for me it is like what new I can implement in my existing client site, how can I make it better or what can I propose to a new client who&#8217;s coming to me with issues from their website, how can I make things better for the end user? Be it e-commerce side, be it a block side, be it a magazine side, be it just a simple brochure side. So each new feature of any release helps me think how certain aspects can be better website and how it can help the user.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />So really it&#8217;s an opportunity. And do you think that looking at that, if you are a storefront with a website on Woo or a Cat blogger or anybody who uses WordPress, people who use it as their detailed international intranet, that releases present opportunities and maybe not for the immediate, but something that they can take up later on?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Meher:<br />Yes, not all the features help instantly, but there will be some features which will work as soon as the release ends and in the day-to-day life of a developer or a user or a person who&#8217;s just using WordPress to share their updates.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />Now I know Meher, you use a lot of the Gutenberg releases and some of them before they go into Core as well. What do you see as the main advantage for people now that we do get so many Gutenberg releases coming into core and being part of that major release?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Meher:<br />I have only a couple of sites which I use direct Gutenberg on, the others all features come when added to the WordPress core. For the sites which I&#8217;m using Gutenberg, it&#8217;s like an experiment to see what advantage will these bring when it&#8217;s added to the core.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />And I think that&#8217;s a good way of looking at it. It&#8217;s a way of helping people really understand what&#8217;s their experiment if they&#8217;d like to beforehand, but once it becomes part of core, it is much more seamless and having that is a great thing. So in 6.6 we have this automatic plugin rollbacks now and that plugin management that we have really does make it so much safer to be able to try new things, try the plugins. I&#8217;m going to go to you, Mary, because I know this is something that you&#8217;ve been really wanting to see in WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mary:<br />Yeah, I&#8217;ve tested it a bit and I have some involvement and been watching the ticket. The kicker is that it is not optional if a plugin update is an automatic or otherwise, but I think mostly automatic. If something happens and you get a fatal error with an automatic plugin update, it automatically will revert to the plugin version that worked. So there&#8217;s no reason not to turn on auto updates, and that in turn makes not only your site but the entire web more secure. It just does, and I&#8217;m saying that personally because the official position is not to claim that plugin updates necessarily make sites more secure. The fact is, well particularly now when a lot of security issues are not coming from automatic are not coming from outdated plugins, they&#8217;re coming from compromised credentials. The fact is that abandoned plugins, and in this case I&#8217;m going to mean, I&#8217;m going to say abandoned by the site owner who&#8217;s not updating them. The plugins are doing a fine job of keeping everything updated. If you for whatever reason are not checking in with your site regularly and plugins, updating themes, updating core, you do become vulnerable because let&#8217;s face it, at 43% of the web we are the open web&#8217;s last great hope. We are the open web, so it&#8217;s up to us to make it as easy as possible to keep sites current and to keep security up. It&#8217;s that simple and this is a way for upgrading everything to be a no-brainer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha <br />Thanks Mary and Mary, you&#8217;re also a component maintainer. In fact, we both have a couple of components in common too. Can we both contribute to some of those maintaining, and I was very excited to see some of the bulk edit component maintenance items in this time and to see things that we&#8217;ve been really wanting to move forward actually getting there. So Mary, could you just share why people should volunteer to help on a component?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mary:<br />Again, it&#8217;s everything we can keep maintained and keep updated. We contribute to the security of the open web. Somebody once said to me, why do I volunteer my time to organizations I care about, because I am selfish and greedy, it makes me feel good.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />Also improves what we&#8217;re doing. So if you are thinking that there&#8217;s tickets that you want to see and they&#8217;re all in the same area, then have a look at what that component is. Is this something that you can help? There&#8217;s normally quite a few maintainers for each component. They all have different skills. Sometimes you&#8217;re just trying to get people to collaborate on something and help push something forward. Other times you&#8217;re looking at the code, sometimes you&#8217;re looking at patches. There is so much variety that you can get involved with, and we&#8217;ll put a link in the show notes to some of those places too and we&#8217;ll put a little bit of a guide as well about how you can get involved with that because at Do the Woo, we try to be part of that collaboration and encouragement journey as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Meher:<br />What I&#8217;m saying is, if you want to be a part of any component and you don&#8217;t know where to get started or you don&#8217;t want to ask question because you feel that it may not be the right appropriate question. But I&#8217;ll always encourage you to ask questions because all questions are great questions. There&#8217;s a lot of documentation in the handbook which helps a normal user or beginner user to get started with how to submit a patch or how to take a look at the number of components. We have because we have a lot of components which goes into the entire WordPress software. So just ask questions or just read the handbook and you get answers. Otherwise you can always put your questions on the Make WordPress Slack and someone will respond and guide you to the right documentation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mary:<br />Also, the next time you&#8217;re in the Admin, click on what&#8217;s new and you&#8217;ll see four things. You&#8217;ll see the credits, you&#8217;ll see the four freedoms, you&#8217;ll see something else, but there&#8217;s a fourth button called Get Involved was started. That was a ticket that was opened more than 10 years ago by a friend of someone who was recently Marketing team rep, and it was just committed a year ago by one of our co-maintainers. So there&#8217;s another reason to become a component maintainer, and if you click on that button there will be a bunch of concrete steps you can take.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />Absolutely. And also if you&#8217;re in the Admin , you can see on the right hand side details of meetups. Now there&#8217;s WordPress meetups all over the place and all over the world and it&#8217;s a great way to get involved and find out more. And many of the meetups at the moment are doing features on 6.6, so make sure you check those out too. We&#8217;re going to have some links in the show notes too to a wonderful video by Anne &#8211; who normally joins us for these releases and unfortunately can&#8217;t be here today and &#8211; all about negative margins grid block and custom shadows and it&#8217;s well worth a look. There&#8217;s also a lot more resources about things like 6.6. There&#8217;s the Field Guide that comes out with every single release and that links to all the different documentation about items in that release. If you&#8217;re a developer, it is the place that you need to be.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><br />If you&#8217;re an end user, it&#8217;s a great way to learn and if you want to just start contributing to WordPress, it&#8217;s a wonderful place to actually learn how WordPress works and be part of that solution too. So for 6.6, there were 299 core track tickets and 108 of these were enhancements and feature requests. That&#8217;s quite a significant number. There were 16 tickets focused on performance, 24 on accessibility and 15 on modernizing code and applying coding standards. This is what it takes to go into a release. These tickets are from people all over the world, people who have contributed with different skill sets. We&#8217;re now looking at volunteers for 6.7. Again, we&#8217;ll put the link in the show notes if you think actually maybe I can get involved too. Like all three of the people who are on this podcast today, we&#8217;ve all shadowed, we&#8217;ve all been involved with testing and got involved in different aspects of a release. You need to only get involved in a way that has to suit you. You do not have to take on things that you&#8217;re not happy with or take up a commitment that you don&#8217;t feel that you could do at this time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mary:<br />The way I got involved was sometime in 2018 or 19, I just started keeping my desktop Slack app open and I would look at it occasionally, like just with my left eye. And gradually I started seeing something that I felt like I could comment on or ask a question about, and so I did. And look at us three, now look at us four.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />There are lots of ways as Mary said to get involved. And for anybody who&#8217;s not sure how, we do love all of your messages after shows have been out and I know people have said about what are these notifications, what are these Slack channels? We will try to continue putting those links to that, not just in the Show Notes, but also we try to contribute in other slacks in the Make WordPress community. And also if your local community is wanting to do something and you&#8217;re not sure how, get in touch and we&#8217;ll try and help. And more importantly, we want to try and boost the voices of different communities that don&#8217;t always get airtime. So if you feel that yours hasn&#8217;t and you&#8217;re doing something exciting with a release or something exciting in WooCommerce, do let me know and I can be contacted through Do The Woo, on the Make WordPress Slack, or on Twitter on NonStopNewsUK.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><br />I&#8217;m going to jump back to 6.6 again because there are still a lot of features we want to tell you about. So I&#8217;m going to jump over to Meher. In terms of this particular release, we&#8217;ve looked at pattern management and one of the things that I thought was really good was that 6.6 makes it easier for users with classic themes now to manage the patterns on their site. I know you feel very strongly about WordPress keeping and allowing people who have older versions, to a degree, to still use it and to be able to advance and improve and update, but in a way that they feel supported. Do you think that&#8217;s how we&#8217;re going? Do you think that changes, like the ones in pattern management and classic themes, are going to help people to move over to things like the block editor?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Meher:<br />Yes. Having patterns support classic themes will encourage the people who are using classic themes to slowly and steadily think and migrate to full side editing, and make them a bit confident that what they do in classic editor, they will be able to do equally or more better with full side editing. So it is the hope giving to classic editor people that they will gradually with time move to full site editor.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />And I think having that pathway is actually really helpful. So if you&#8217;ve not tried Block Editor yet either in your WordPress or your WooCommerce environment, have a look at some of the update and it is, as Meher has really well explained, an easier route and will give you more confidence. The other thing that is also I know very close to Mary&#8217;s heart is this idea that you can mix and match styles now and colors and typography in WordPress 6.6. So before I just go to Mary on that, I&#8217;m going to give a shout out to the developer blog. So Justin Tadlock has done a wonderful feature on the blog which came out a few days ago, all about how to do this. It&#8217;s a great tutorial. I&#8217;ve been through it from both the editorial team but also trying it as a WordPress user and I&#8217;ve had great fun registering color variations and following Justin&#8217;s example of creating an emerald color palette. So that is the Developer Blog and it&#8217;s Developer. WordPress.org. And I&#8217;m going to just go over to Mary so she can tell you a little bit about why all these things and all these new typography and styles and colors make WordPress such a better tool to use.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mary:<br />I am a certifiable typography addict from the age of 14 &#8211; which is 50 years for me &#8211; and it has never been easier to use really quality typefaces. Google fonts, yes, and there are a lot of great typefaces on Google fonts. But there are also great typefaces on Adobe type and if you have any sort of creative cloud subscription, you have everything available to you on Adobe type and that&#8217;s slightly complex. But then there&#8217;s a new Monotype subscription where for various not horribly expensive amounts of a year, you can actually download font files that you can then upload to the font folder right in the font management interface in the block editor and has almost anything you want. I mean from major foundries like Monotype and Linotype, places that have been around for a hundred years. But also current contemporary foundries like Latino type and new places like set sales studios and any little type stand you want to follow from the current serif fonts with ligatures and loopy roundy type or brutalist or whatever.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><br />Just amazing. Those are now available in your WordPress site and you do not have the write one line of code that in queue a style, but you don&#8217;t even have to do that anymore. Furthermore, your admin clients and those people we call site builders who buy fonts, install it and buy plugins and install it, install them. Those people in the block editor now also can control the type and you can control colors and list any type you want in theme JSON. There&#8217;s a whole new world out there and frankly I should be in a 12 step program about all of it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />It is a very exciting time in WordPress, isn&#8217;t it? And if you&#8217;ve never discovered it, this is the time to come and have a look at it and see how it can support your WooCommerce journey too. So also in this release, we have some lots of things on API. So do check out the Field Guide and the links will be in the Show Notes about that. Also, just a reminder that support for PHP 7.0 and 7.1 is dropped in WordPress 6.6. So the minimum supportive version of PHP from WordPress 6.6 is 7.2 0.24, but the recommended version of PHP for WordPress 6.6 remains at 7.4 or greater. So do check the backend of your website, see what PHP you&#8217;re running, if it&#8217;s controlled by your host, have a look if they can upgrade it for you. And it just as Mary&#8217;s talked about, it helps to make a more efficient and secure web as well. So I&#8217;m going to go back to Meher. In this release, as in all releases, we have improvements in internationalization and we also have lots of polyglots that are involved after every release. What do these volunteer translators have to do with a release?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Meher:<br />The volunteer translators help the release by translating the new version of WordPress into different languages because the 45%, 46% of the web which uses WordPress doesn&#8217;t always use English as a default language. There are many websites out there which uses WordPress in its own language. For example in French, in Hindi, in Spanish, in different languages. So when the release is published, the same English words have to be transmitted is multiple languages. So these translators volunteers help to translate and keep the release up to date so that when a non-English website which uses WordPress updates, it doesn&#8217;t break all of a sudden and from Spanish everything goes into English. It just makes sure that whatever language you are using WordPress in has the right language for the new version.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />Thank you Meher and a very, very big shout out to all those polyglots who have been working around the clock for many of them to translate the latest release, their work is just amazing and you can get involved with that too. See there&#8217;s so many ways you can get involved and we&#8217;ll put that in the show links. The show links are getting bigger and bigger at this rate, but that&#8217;s as we said earlier is how we like to do things at Do The Woo as we like to be part of your journey and hopefully learn alongside you but also help you navigate the learning process. Talking about learning there is Learn.WordPress.org and people who follow this show know that we love to highlight this and we&#8217;ll be doing something on this and focusing on releases in the summer as well. So do come back and see what we&#8217;re doing on that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><br />Just a few quick hits on the release if you haven&#8217;t caught them already. There&#8217;s a new version of React and that&#8217;s available in WordPress 6.6. So do again check out the Field Guide and because this is the place that you will get all the details that you need about it, there is lots of preparation help too for the React 19 upgrade. So if you&#8217;re a dev and you&#8217;re not quite sure this is going to involve make WordPress, core has got it covered. One of the things that we often get asked is how do you get involved with some of these things when you work or you live in different time zones. So just with the two guests that we have on today, they are in completely utterly different time zones. Meher, what time is it for you right now?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Meher:<br />Right now as we record this podcast, it is 1041 PM.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />Meher and Mary, what time is it for you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mary:<br />Quarter past 12pm, just after noon.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />For Bob and I on the show at the moment, it is just about quarter past six in the evening. So just this little microcosm shows you that you do not have to be in the same time zone. Some things can be harder when you&#8217;re not, but there is a proposal and it&#8217;s just been published by Joe McGill, the current core team rep about what time should the Dev Chat be for 6.7. We will put a link to that because they do want your views and also if you are not able to join anything like the developer&#8217;s chat or any of the live experiences that exist around a release, then you can contribute async and I&#8217;m going to go to Meher first. Meher, you&#8217;re often in a completely different time zone, I never can keep up with which time zone you&#8217;re actually working in the moment. But if you could share as some of your final thoughts, why is contributing async worth doing?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Meher:<br />The time for each release good for the Europeans as well as the Americans. It&#8217;s not really good for the Asians but for 6.7 as a lot of folks in the release are from the Asian countries. They&#8217;re trying and see if they can schedule the release parties in a better time zone for Asia. And if you can join those parties, you can come to know how the release cycle goes. If you cannot, you are always most welcome to contribute async. You can test out the release cycle and if you find some major bugs or your test website crashes or it just doesn&#8217;t load, you can always create a Trac ticket or leave it on the code channel. What exactly happened when you updated something and someone will definitely help you when it is a good time in the European American side, one of the reasons I encourage people to participate, whether async or at the given time the release is because you are helping the release be better when it is officially released. A lot of people say that there is a bug when a release happens, but if you want to help solve the bugs, come be a part the release cycle and let&#8217;s avoid that. Let&#8217;s try and see if we can avoid that as possible and make WordPress better than we did because that&#8217;s how we grow in the entire world.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />I love that answer Meher, thank you very much. I think that&#8217;s just perfect and as Meher said, it really is important. So Mary, you&#8217;ve worked in the US predominantly and worked normally in the US’s different time zones. What has it been like to actually work globally in the way that you have in core in other teams as well , and what do you think makes it special about WordPress?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mary:<br />One thing, it&#8217;s really efficient. I can draft a post, like a release post or a thing about coordination or a proposal in my evening and tell people it&#8217;s there on Slack and wake up to feedback when I work on the Dev Blog. Same thing in my afternoon and evening. People are often asleep, they wake up when I&#8217;m asleep, when I wake up, things have moved forward. That&#8217;s pretty nice and I know that it&#8217;s one thing that we think of across the project is essentially it&#8217;s a way to cover questions. Certainly on the support forums, it&#8217;s a way to get questions answered from users 24 -7 because everybody has different holidays, everybody has different days of the week that they&#8217;re unavailable. I mean even the concept of a weekend is different. There are people who are definitely off on Sundays and definitely off on Saturdays and definitely off on Fridays. And that means there are also people who start their week on Sunday and people who start their week on Monday. I&#8217;m not sure of anybody who starts their week on Tuesday, well me occasionally, and people who work at country clubs in the US, but it means that there&#8217;s always something happening and things are moving forward.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />Absolutely. It&#8217;s the idea that there is constantly something that you can get involved with and moving forward. And if you&#8217;ve not had a go yet, give it a go. You can join people all over the world and you can definitely do that here with us at the WordPress way. Thank you for joining us today for this and I hope you&#8217;ve found out some more about 6.6. Hope it&#8217;s made you really want to go and try it. We&#8217;re already working on 6.7 and what we&#8217;re going to be doing for Do The Woo. So as usual, please send us your items for what you&#8217;d like to see highlighted, how you would like to get involved, that you&#8217;ll want to know more about. And the joy we&#8217;ve had at Do the Woo is putting people in touch with the various groups, the squad that they need to talk to.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><br />And it&#8217;s been a real joy when we&#8217;ve had that, particularly from the areas where they haven&#8217;t had contributors before. So please keep doing that. We are here to support you from Do The Woo. All that remains for me, is really is to thank our two guests, Mary Baum and Meher as well. And it&#8217;s just been wonderful to be sitting here talking to you about 6.6. I want to do a shout out to everyone who helped prepare for this as well today and who sent in suggestions and information and of course to Bob who really is an energetic enthusiast for us getting those voices that we don&#8217;t always hear and for spreading that international message. So thank you for joining us. Do come and check out 6.7 when it lands later next year, get involved with the 6.7 team and we&#8217;ll have all those links on the show notes. But for now, it&#8217;s goodbye from me and I&#8217;ll let our guests say their farewells too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mary:<br />Well, thank you very much Abha and Bob and Meher, and we&#8217;ll catch you on the flip side.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Meher:<br />Thank you to Abha, thank you to Bob for having us. Thank you to Mary for being with me in this podcast. To all the great publishers out there, go try out 6.6, come be a partner of 6.7.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abha:<br />And if you are new and have just discovered these releases, and you actually get involved from what we&#8217;ve been trying to put out there, then let us know. We always want to feature things like that and to help encourage. So catch you next time.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode of <strong><em>The WordPress Way</em></strong>, host <strong>Abha Thakor</strong> is joined by <strong>Mary Baum and Meher Bala</strong>, as they chat about the recently released WordPress 6.6. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>They explore various aspects of the release, including the challenges and rewards of being involved in the development process. Meher, who coordinated the release, shares her experiences and insights on how contributing to WordPress, whether in familiar areas or new ones, can be fulfilling and beneficial for personal and professional growth. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>The conversation also touches new features in WordPress 6.6, such as enhanced site editing, automatic plugin rollbacks, and improvements in typography and design flexibility. </p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Takeaways</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>WordPress 6.6 Features and Improvements</strong> &#8211; The episode highlights several new features in WordPress 6.6, such as enhanced site editing capabilities, automatic plugin rollbacks, negative margins, custom shadows, and improved typography tools. These features offer more design flexibility and ease of use for both developers and end-users.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Global Collaboration and Contribution</strong> &#8211; The episode emphasizes the importance of contributing to the WordPress project, regardless of where you are in the world. Contributors can get involved in various aspects of the release process, from development to documentation, testing, and more. They also highlight the benefits of working asynchronously across different time zones.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Encouragement for New Contributors</strong> &#8211; They encourage listeners to overcome any hesitations they might have about getting involved in the WordPress community. They stress that there are numerous ways to contribute, even outside one&#8217;s professional expertise, and that support is available through documentation and community channels.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Role of Release Coordinator</strong> &#8211; Meher Bala shares her experience as the release coordinator for WordPress 6.6, explaining the responsibilities of the role and the importance of thorough testing and communication to ensure a smooth release.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Community Support and Learning</strong> &#8211; The podcast underlines the value of community support in learning and contributing to WordPress. Resources like the Field Guide, developer blogs, and the Learn.WordPress.org platform are recommended for both new and experienced users to deepen their understanding and skills.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Opportunities in WordPress</strong> &#8211; With WordPress powering a significant portion of the web, the episode discusses how new releases present opportunities for developers and site owners to enhance their websites, improve security, and stay up-to-date with the latest tools and features.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Links</h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/meher/\">Meher on WordPress.org</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://profiles.wordpress.org/marybaum/\">Mary on WordPress.org</a></strong></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Download and find out more about WordPress 6.6</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/download/releases/6-6/\">WordPress 6.6 Release</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/06/25/wordpress-6-6-field-guide/\">WordPress 6.6 Field Guide</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/07/22/mixing-and-matching-styles-colors-and-typography-in-wordpress-6-6/\">Developer Blog &#8211; mixing and matching styles colors and typography in WordPress 6.6</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/08/05/registering-custom-aspect-ratios-in-wordpress-6-6/\">Developer Blog &#8211; registering custom aspect ratios in WordPress 6.6</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vopi-a9NptY\">Exploring WordPress 6.6 (YouTube)</a></strong></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>As Anne McCarthy was not able to join us as planned for the podcast, we are sharing her videos on 6.6.</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhvEhnjbdyM\">WordPress 6.6: Bringing a Modern Patterns Experience to Classic Themes</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdh1hKAuXSQ\">Negative margins, grid block, and custom shadows on 6.6 (YouTube)</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zidqPCJhze8\">Explore the power of a shared publish flow &amp; unified extensibility APIs in WordPress 6.6</a></strong></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Get involved links</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/05/wordpress-6-7-planning-proposal-call-for-volunteers/\">Planning for WordPress 6.7 and call for volunteers</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/testing/\">Contribute to testing of WordPress</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/contribute/trac/\">What are trac tickets and how can I help with them?</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/community/meetups/\">Find your local WordPress Meetup</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/polyglots/\">Could you help translate WordPress releases and other parts of the software into your local language? Join the Polyglots Team.</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/docs/\">Want to help make releases even easier to follow for end-users? Join the Docs Team.</a></strong></li>\n</ul>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 13 Aug 2024 09:16:38 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:22;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:59:\"Do The Woo Community: Stepping Outside the WordPress Bubble\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=85084\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:58:\"https://dothewoo.io/stepping-outside-the-wordpress-bubble/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:7217:\"Episode Transcript\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p>Over the years, certain people in our space have talked about stepping outside the WordPress bubble. I include myself in that group.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And with each iteration of the community, personally, I always feel like it&#8217;s something that is not only a good idea for us to think about but also a healthy way to broaden our thoughts and opinions. For some people, it&#8217;s a bit scary to do this because they find the bubble a comfort zone. Others are much more comfortable. And even more so, some step outside of it for good, which is often the best decision for them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>What does it mean to step outside the bubble? Well, it&#8217;s what you make it. Learning something new. Joining conversations that give you a more open mind. Or perhaps attending an event or conference that allows you to expand your scope on how you do business and who you do it with.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Some things to ponder.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>One of the biggest traps in our space is our Slack channels, which are one of two things: an echo chamber or a place with like-minded people who follow a single path. Now, I am not saying don&#8217;t participate in these. Instead, I suggest you find additional avenues of conversation that are not just in compliance with how you feel or think about something in the community. Reaffirmation is helpful, but it can also get you stuck.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>With that all said, let me share how we, as a community at Do the Woo, are trying to help you step outside the bubble with two shows.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Open Talk on Open Source. This is one of our newer shows that I have talked about a bit in the past. It is hosted by Robert Jacobi and Courtney Robertson, both avid open source proponents. The idea for the show was inside my head since last year.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>What inspired me to pull it together was not only had I heard others talking about the need for this, but it also nagged at me. The fact that so many of us in the WordPress ecosystem love open source for the obvious reason but are not exposed to all the amazing projects around us that bring open source to the surface and also integrate or work alongside WordPress itself. As a result, this show is perfect for anyone who loves WordPress as an open-source project and wants to discover those projects outside our space and what they mean to you and the growth of open source.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Then we also have our new show about Scaling Enterprise. Working with the Scale Consortium, this show has also been in the works for quite some time and is now out in the wild with hosts Brad Williams, Karim Marucchi, and Tom Willmot. What makes this show unique is it&#8217;s broken up into two separate shows, The Buyer&#8217;s View and The Inside Track.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The Inside Track, which premiered yesterday, is more focused on WordPress in Enterprise. On the other hand, The Buyer&#8217;s View gives us a look at open source software beyond WordPress when it comes to enterprise. So essentially, you get the best of both worlds.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>These two shows are examples of how we want to help you explore technology beyond the WordPress bubble. And I&#8217;m sure even within our other existing shows, you will find bits and pieces of it as well. Plus, I imagine you may find more about it on our new blog that is just around the corner.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Lastly, I would like to share my own experience that lends itself to events outside of WordPress. This last March, I attended CloudFest in Germany for the first time. It started with the Hackathon that led into the event. And yes, there was also a WordPress day. Something I believe you are going to see grow.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Now I know some people came only for that day, and I am hoping next March that they decide to stick around for the entire event. Now it is focused on technology in the cloud, so not everything may be of interest. But I can guarantee you that you will meet some amazing people with all sorts of talents and views that will make it worth the experience.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Myself, I used to go to these conferences in my other pre-WordPress life. And I was so happy that I stepped out of the bubble of WordCamps and experienced CloudFest. In fact, I was so impressed, chances are good I will be going again next March. So hope to see you there and if you have any questions about it, ping me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, that is that. And as I said at the beginning, find your own paths to explore the tech communities outside of WordPress no matter what you do professionally in our space. Take some breaks from those Slack channels and reflect on the bigger picture. Give yourself some time to reevaluate how this may just make you happier and more flexible with your own ideas and thoughts. I have done this recently myself in a lot of different ways aside from what I have already mentioned around the podcast and events. Maybe that is something for another time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So speaking of WordCamps, if you are going to WordCamp US, let&#8217;s connect or reconnect. I&#8217;m looking forward to seeing everyone and know that having a balance of inside and outside the bubble is nothing better than a happier frame of mind. So until the next time.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode of <strong>BobWP on Community, BobWP</strong> talks about the importance of stepping outside the WordPress bubble to broaden our thoughts and opinions.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Takeaways</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>The key takeaways from the transcript are:</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>The Importance of Stepping Outside the Bubble</strong>: It&#8217;s beneficial to explore beyond the WordPress community to gain new perspectives, learn, and grow.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Learning and Broadening Horizons</strong>: Engaging in new activities, joining diverse conversations, and attending different events can help broaden your scope and improve how you do business.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Avoiding Echo Chambers</strong>: Participating in diverse conversations and exploring different avenues can prevent getting stuck in an echo chamber.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Initiatives at Do the Woo</strong>: The community is encouraged to step outside the WordPress bubble through new shows like &#8220;Open Talk on Open Source&#8221; and &#8220;Scaling Enterprise,&#8221; which highlight technology beyond WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Value of Events Outside WordPress</strong>: Attending events like CloudFest offers opportunities to meet diverse people and gain insights beyond the WordPress ecosystem.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Personal Growth</strong>: Exploring outside familiar zones can lead to personal and professional growth, making one happier and more flexible in their ideas and thoughts.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Links</h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://dothewoo.io/podcasts/open-talk-on-open-source/\">Open Talk on Open Source</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://dothewoo.io/podcasts/scaling-enterprise-wordpress-and-open-source-software/\">Scaling Enterprise, WordPress &amp; OSS</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.cloudfest.com/\">CloudFest 2025</a></strong></li>\n</ul>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Thu, 08 Aug 2024 08:56:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:23;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:83:\"WPTavern: #131 – Abraham Waita on Nurturing Young WordPress Enthusiasts in Uganda\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:48:\"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=158288\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:97:\"https://wptavern.com/podcast/131-abraham-waita-on-nurturing-young-wordpress-enthusiasts-in-uganda\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:27109:\"Transcript<div>\n<p>[00:00:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the jukebox podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, nurturing young WordPress enthusiasts in Uganda.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast, player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast. And you can copy that URL in some most podcast players.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox , and use the form there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So on the podcast today, we have Abraham Waita.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abraham is a Woo Happiness Engineer at Automattic and is very active in the WordPress communities of both Kenya and Uganda. He&#8217;s recently given a talk at WordCamp Europe, which we discuss in this episode.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abraham has been instrumental in rolling out WordPress to high schools in Uganda. Fostering a rapidly growing young WordPress community. His talk entitled, Diverse and Sustainable Future: How High School Teachers in Uganda are Nurturing a Young WordPress Community, shines a light on this initiative.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We explore the dynamics of the WordPress community in Uganda, it&#8217;s impressive growth and the challenges it has faced along the way. Abraham provides insights into how WordPress is being taught in high school, through the ICT curriculum, and the creative project students have undertaken.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>He also discusses the importance of community support, including sponsorships and hardware donations, and how these contributions can immensely benefit the educational enterprise.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Towards the end of our conversation, we get into the broader impact of this initiative on students&#8217; futures, and how companies, or individuals, can sponsor this endeavor. If you&#8217;re passionate</p>\n\n\n\n<p>about education, WordPress, or community growth, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so without further delay, I bring you Abraham Waita.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I am joined on the podcast by Abraham Waita. Hi Abraham.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:05] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> Hey Nathan. I&#8217;ve just come from my talk and I&#8217;m feeling the nervousness is dying down, so I&#8217;m finally enjoying WordCamp Europe.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:12] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Have you just done it just now?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:13] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> A few hours ago, but the emotions leading to the talk were so high, so right now I&#8217;m just letting everything go like down.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I&#8217;m very impressed of anybody that can do a talk at an event like this because it must be very nerve wracking. And until it&#8217;s over, I guess you&#8217;re carrying it around until it&#8217;s actually finished. So well done, thank you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That is actually the topic of the conversation today. We&#8217;re going to talk about the subject that you talked about on stage. But before we get into that, could you just introduce yourself. Maybe, I don&#8217;t know, a minute, thirty seconds. Just tell us who you are, where you live, who you work for, that kind of thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:03:46] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> Yeah, so, Abraham, I&#8217;m based in Nairobi, Kenya, but I&#8217;m actually active in two WordPress communities. That&#8217;s the WordPress community in Kenya, and the one in Uganda. And the funny fact is that I attend more WordCamps in Uganda than in Kenya. That&#8217;s why I am associated with the community in Uganda more than the one in Kenya. I work at Automattic as a Woo Happiness Engineer, so I&#8217;m usually supporting people using WooCommerce, specifically with, I help with payment issues and, outside that is when I go to do community work.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So the talk that you did was entitled as follows, Diverse and sustainable future: How high school teachers in Uganda are nurturing a young WordPress community. And when I saw that title, I thought, well, I really want to know a little bit more about that. So that&#8217;s what we&#8217;ve got you in to talk about today.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Can you just tell us a little bit about the community, the WordPress community in Uganda? Is it growing? Is it shrinking? Is it large? Is it small? The only point of reference that I&#8217;ve got is WordPress. I confess, I&#8217;ve never been to Uganda, I don&#8217;t know anything about it. I&#8217;m imagining quite a few of the people listening have also not been to Uganda. But I&#8217;d be just interested to hear, just tell us what it&#8217;s like over there for the WordPressers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:04:59] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> Yeah. The community&#8217;s growing at a very high rate right now because we are rolling out WordPress to all high schools in Uganda, and all high schools combined have 1.4 million students. So as we introduce more of them to WordPress, the community keeps growing, and that&#8217;s one of the things we are having, is the surging numbers in attendees who want to come to WordCamps. Because the venues are now limited such that we have to introduce some sort of limitations to who can come. And as we look for bigger venues, the community&#8217;s growing very rapidly right now.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:05:34] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That&#8217;s interesting because that stands in stark contrast to where I am, which is the UK. When Covid came along, that kind of really did shutter the WordPress community down, and the events have not come back yet. But you have a very different experience in Uganda, so that&#8217;s really nice to hear. It&#8217;s growing, and in fact, at events, you&#8217;re turning people away because there&#8217;s not enough space in the venues. That&#8217;s absolutely fascinating.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Is it just WordPress, or is it open source in general? So for example, would I find, I don&#8217;t know if you know, but would I find a growing Drupal community as well, or is it uniquely WordPress?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:06:08] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> It&#8217;s mostly WordPress because it&#8217;s the tool that&#8217;s being broadcasted in high schools, like being spread out in high schools. So that&#8217;s the main focus for now. As we try to move into more schools with WordPress, we are getting more of that development in WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Maybe other CMSs will also grow as a result of people looking for alternatives, but for now it&#8217;s mostly WordPress that&#8217;s growing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:06:30] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> In the part of the world where I live, if children were to encounter WordPress, it would probably be because of a parent. As far as I&#8217;m aware, and forgive me if I&#8217;ve got this wrong, there&#8217;s no school program. I mean, maybe some ingenious teacher is offering a club after school, but as far as I&#8217;m aware, there&#8217;s no state sponsored, government led WordPress training. Is that what&#8217;s happening in Uganda? Is it officially inside the school time, it&#8217;s being taught as an actual lesson, or is it more end of the day club kind of thing?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:04] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> It&#8217;s taught in a subject called ICT, and it was open-ended for teachers to interpret how they would like to teach it, because the curriculum just said, we need your students to be able to come up with a project that solves problems in their communities. So initially how they were teaching that subject, the ICT subject, was with tools that could not meet this requirement. And so they ended up turning to WordPress, and that&#8217;s how, right now, you&#8217;ll find, yes, students are in a computer lab learning WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:35] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Got it. Okay, so it&#8217;s entirely up to the individual teacher how far they want to go with that. And they could ignore WordPress altogether, but it&#8217;s allowed, and many people are doing it. Why have they chosen WordPress in particular? Is it just because there is a community, and there&#8217;s understanding, broadly, of how it works?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:07:51] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> So, the biggest contributor was the, number one, it&#8217;s open source, and then the community involvement. So it&#8217;s now, let&#8217;s say, that there&#8217;s already a community around WordPress. There are WordCamps, there are meetup groups, so they&#8217;re not really starting from scratch if they want to spread it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And those are some of the preexisting conditions that have made WordPress to grow quickly because you have sponsored WordCamps, you have preexisting meetup groups, and it&#8217;s from there that other things have come up. So we have moved from two active meetup groups to six, and most of the new ones are teacher led. They are using the meetup spaces to share knowledge to each other. And from the knowledge sharing, now the teachers move back to students, and the students get to benefit from what the teachers have learned. So it&#8217;s like a, not a food chain of knowledge, but yeah, something like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:08:48] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I understand. Yeah, so it&#8217;s kind of top down. It&#8217;s trickling down, yeah. And what kind of things are being taught? Because there&#8217;s just literally millions of things that you could teach people about WordPress. But, are you starting at the basics? Like how to install WordPress, here&#8217;s how to create a page. And just tell us what these curricular might look like.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:09:06] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> Sure. So the initial point is usually getting WordPress installed, and due to internet challenges, it&#8217;s usually on local hosts and using XAMP. And once the students know how to install WordPress on local host, they are now introduced to building pages, posts, and then lastly plugins.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So it&#8217;s from the plugins where the teachers now start stepping backwards, and they allow students to explore. So we have seen students who have come up with crazy projects because they went above and beyond in the exploration journey. So like, one of the projects, I ask the students, so how did you build this platform? You say, it allows students to filter the schools. And he was like, oh, I have plugins for this, and here I set up custom post types, I am using ACF something. And I was impressed because the teacher did not teach him that. He just went exploring, and from there, he got to know more than, let&#8217;s say, the teacher, and come up with huge projects.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:07] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> There&#8217;s a lot of guided learning, but then also you are seeing the children are just taking it off in any direction. I mean, I guess if you teach any subject, a proportion of children will be disinterested, and I&#8217;m sure that&#8217;s the case with WordPress. But there&#8217;s always going to be those who just hook into it and think, this is the best thing ever, and go off and explore and, as you said, start making things like custom post types, and what have you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And I feel that, in the last few years, the way WordPress has gone since the advent of Gutenberg, the block editor, it&#8217;s made it much more powerful for a vanilla, non plugin WordPress, so just a vanilla install of WordPress. To get yourself something credible just with the block editor. So I imagine there&#8217;s a lot of experimentation with blocks and things like that as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:10:51] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> Yeah, actually one of the WordCamps I attended, the first session was covering blocks, and using Gutenberg to develop a functional site. And it&#8217;s from there that it&#8217;s like an entry point for beginners. Those are the learning points, what you can do with just a basic installation of WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:11] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, got it. Just to recap a little bit, you&#8217;ve got the meetups and there&#8217;s, now it&#8217;s gone from two to six, and at those you&#8217;ve got a lot of teachers attending as attendees to that event. And then they&#8217;re learning, and then they&#8217;re going back to their schools, and then they&#8217;re doing all these things. So it&#8217;s not like there&#8217;s one curricular, there&#8217;s just multiple different ways that it&#8217;s being taught.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:32] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> Yeah. So it&#8217;s a total of about six sustainable initiatives, that the teachers are using to spread WordPress quickly, as quickly as possible to all schools, to teachers and to students.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:11:43] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you need more support in this endeavor? Is it growing at the point where you need to reach out and, I don&#8217;t know, maybe make it eight meet ups or twelve meet ups? And also, the finance of all of that because, although there&#8217;s a lot of voluntary time in, you know, you still have to do things like pay for the venue possibly, and things like that. Would you welcome some more support?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I imagine that there&#8217;ll be people listening into this podcast who maybe work for a company that&#8217;s got an initiative, that they may wish to contact you and discuss things. So are you looking for support, financial or otherwise?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:12:11] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> Sure. We really are looking for all possible support. So mostly, if there are, let&#8217;s say more sponsors currently, the sponsors that are available, we really appreciate them, but we still require more assistance. So there are some areas we could really grow.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Number one is getting bigger venues. So, as I said, we now have to limit to around 200 students, but what if now we could allow a thousand students from different schools.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Another thing, we have competitions going on, and a rewarding factor for participating in a competition is you get a present or something. So in the past, I would like to give maybe a shout out to two companies who have given some presents in the past. We have Yoast, who gave a free SEO training to winners of one competition. Alongside wordpress.com, who had some swag for them as well. It&#8217;s also a motivating factor.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Apart from that, yeah, there&#8217;s something else called a sponsor in kind in Uganda. So it goes all the way from, like last time someone gave a router, a 4G router to give internet to the production team, to the attendees, so that there&#8217;s wifi. And that&#8217;s as little as it can be like, from just being an enabler of the basic services to, let&#8217;s say, being a sponsor at a given level. And, yeah, your funds will really go a long way in that event. Maybe lunch for the attendees, something else like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:13:41] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. So before we end this podcast, I&#8217;ll make absolutely sure that we&#8217;ve got any links to any pages that you may wish to point people towards. But we&#8217;ll also make sure that your contact details are there, and i&#8217;m imagine that you&#8217;ll be happy to receive emails about this subject.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You mentioned about motivating factors. Is that an important part of it? When these children are turning up to learn, are they seeing it just, I don&#8217;t know, it&#8217;s a bit of fun, I can build a website, or is there more to it? Like, okay, this could be a job for me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Is there a certain sense of it carrying through after school. I don&#8217;t know if you track that, or if it&#8217;s been going for long enough to see that, look what we did, we&#8217;ve now got, I don&#8217;t know, 100, 200, 300 people who are building websites for clients all over the world. Is it carrying on after school? Is it, sustainable?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:23] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> Okay, so for carrying on, we are looking forward to the end of this year because that&#8217;s when the first cohort under the new curriculum will be examined. So when they go out, it&#8217;s the first group we will have coming out of high school with WordPress education. And then it&#8217;s, from there we can see whether they are taking it outside school. But from now, for the time being, yes, we have seen them taking some projects. So we have students who have built websites for their schools, where the schools didn&#8217;t have any websites, and now they have websites because the students learn how to use WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:56] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So it is carrying on.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:58] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> Yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:14:58] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Definitely carrying on, but I guess only time will tell how that goes. But if you&#8217;re pushing a lot of children through the project, I&#8217;m sure that, in the end, it will have that effect.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>How does the actual lesson look? I think you mentioned something like a computer lab, or something like that. Again, I&#8217;ve no idea what schools are equipped with in Uganda. So, is it a bit like a classroom environment, where there&#8217;s computers around the wall and you just begin, and you carry on from where you left last time? Or is it, everybody sit down, look at the whiteboard at the front, or the blackboard or whatever it may be, and I&#8217;m going to teach you this thing, and then you&#8217;ve got to go over and experiment with that? What does the actual lesson look like?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:15:31] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> As a requirement for the ICT, the schools are offering ICT, they require computer labs. So it&#8217;s up to them to know how to, let&#8217;s say, schedule the classes into smaller groups to fit the number of computers they have, so that each student can attend like practically a lesson. But during WordCamps, you&#8217;ll find most students don&#8217;t have laptops. So during WordCamps, we just have a projector screen, and if it&#8217;s a tutorial, we are taking them through, one student will actually be doing the practical bit of it. But the learning part, we use computer lab, mostly computer labs in their schools.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:09] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s difficult to sort of say, but where I come from in the UK, there&#8217;s a lot of laptops lying around. There&#8217;s many, many, laptops. I&#8217;m sure that quite a few of the children have got laptops, that&#8217;s not always the case.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Would you welcome anything like that? You know, do you need more actual hardware? You mentioned things like routers, and financial contributions and things. Anybody listening to this who might happen to have some of that stuff lying around, is that something you would welcome, or you&#8217;ve got to use certain things, and buy them through government channels, or what have you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:16:35] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> Yeah, that would be really welcomed because one of the challenges is that there are schools who really can&#8217;t teach WordPress because they don&#8217;t have the basic requirement of a computer lab, because they don&#8217;t have laptops, they don&#8217;t have computers, they don&#8217;t have anything to teach this subject. So they are limited.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So the students in those schools unfortunately can&#8217;t benefit like the others. If there&#8217;s hardware support, computers, laptops, anything that can load WordPress installation, because it&#8217;ll be localised, it&#8217;s minimal resources. Anything like that could really go a long way in such schools.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:07] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Have you played with Playground?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:10] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> Personally, not yet, but I would say it&#8217;s now a great thing, to have a quick installation of WordPress on the site. Although, in Uganda, for now it may be a challenge, because you need continuous connection, which the students may not have. That&#8217;s why, for now, they are still on XAMP and local host installations, something like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But, yes, that will be the future because the connectivity is coming and, yeah, we will have more opportunities to introduce students also to that. I also look forward to playing around with Playground.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:17:43] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, it&#8217;s an amazing technology, and it feels that any part of the world, Uganda or anywhere else, it would be just such a superb tool for the classroom because you click a button, and four seconds, five seconds later, you have a WordPress installation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>There&#8217;s a few little caveats around that. There&#8217;s a few things that you can&#8217;t do, but broadly speaking, it works.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>At the moment, when you close the browser, it goes away. But in the near future, one of the developers in the project, I think there are three of them now, they&#8217;re going to make it persistent.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, you close the browser, and then sometime later open the browser, and it will still be there. But of course, I guess one of the things with that is that then it&#8217;s still stuck on your computer, which is fine if you possess a computer, but if you go home and the computer was at school, you then can&#8217;t use it. But maybe in the future it will be able to be exported somewhere.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:32] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> How does the sort of hosting aspect go? Because you mentioned that a child had built school website. Did school pay for the hosting of that? How did it all of that happen?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:18:41] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> So there&#8217;s a lot of voluntary efforts going on, and some companies offer free hosting if possible. Sometimes the schools pay for the hosting. So it&#8217;s a mix. Sometimes the schools will pay, sometimes a volunteer will just support them by hosting. So that&#8217;s one of the hosts supporting, or sponsoring in kind initiatives I was mentioning. You don&#8217;t have to give, let&#8217;s say, a financial contribution, but hosting a site is one of the contribution ways.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:09] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I mean, it all sounds absolutely amazing. It&#8217;s lovely to see a part of the world where WordPress is growing so rapidly. And I guess, you know, it&#8217;s from the endeavors of people like you that it&#8217;s all happening. So thank you for all of your hard work.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Can you mention any websites, or places we could go, organisations that we could find out about, that would enable us to find out more, but also maybe, I don&#8217;t know, send some sort of sponsorship, or donation, or something like that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:19:35] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> You can, first of all, to reach out to the organisers of the different WordCamps, if you&#8217;d like to sponsor a WordCamp. You can go to central.wordcamp.org, and then you&#8217;ll find a listing of the upcoming WordCamps. And you&#8217;ll find, let&#8217;s say, in July, there&#8217;s a Uganda Websites competition. If you click on it, you can now find your way to the sponsor&#8217;s page, and sponsor directly from there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;d like to connect with the teachers association that has been behind all the efforts of all these outreach program in spreading WordPress to schools, you can first reach out to them on Twitter. They are @ICTTeachersUG, and their site is ictteachersug.net. And lastly, if you&#8217;d like me to connect you with, because there are so many other people involved, if you&#8217;d like me to connect you with, let&#8217;s say, whoever is leading the next meetup, or the next WordCamp, you can find me on LinkedIn as Abraham Waita, and I&#8217;ll be happy to link you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:20:36] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I will make sure that all of those links go into the show notes. So if you go to wptavern.com/podcast, you&#8217;ll be able to find the episode there, and you can click on the links and hopefully connect with Abraham.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Thank you so much for chatting to me today. What an impressive community you&#8217;ve got over there. I hope it continues, and I hope you manage to teach more children as the days, and weeks, and months go by, all about the virtues of WordPress. Thank you very much.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>[00:20:58] <strong>Abraham Waita:</strong> Thank you Nathan.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<p>On the podcast today we have <a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/abraham-waita/\">Abraham Waita</a>.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abraham is a Woo Happiness Engineer at Automattic and is very active in the WordPress communities of both Kenya and Uganda. He’s recently given a talk at WordCamp Europe, which we discuss in this episode.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Abraham has been instrumental in rolling out WordPress to high schools in Uganda, fostering a rapidly growing young WordPress community. His talk, entitled &#8220;Diverse and Sustainable Future: How High School Teachers in Uganda are Nurturing a Young WordPress Community,&#8221; shines a light on this initiative.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We explore the dynamics of the WordPress community in Uganda, its impressive growth, and the challenges it has faced along the way. Abraham provides insights into how WordPress is being taught in high schools through the ICT curriculum and the creative projects students have undertaken.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>He also discusses the importance of community support, including sponsorships and hardware donations, and how these contributions can immensely benefit the educational enterprise.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Towards the end of our conversation, we get into the broader impact of this initiative on students&#8217; futures, and how companies or individuals can support this endeavour.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you&#8217;re passionate about education, WordPress, or community growth, this episode is for you.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Useful links</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>WordCamp&#8217;s in Uganda 2024: <a href=\"https://lira.wordcamp.org/2024/\">Lira</a> and <a href=\"https://jinja.wordcamp.org/2024/\">Jinja</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p>WordCamp&#8217;s in Kenya 2024: <a href=\"https://nairobi.wordcamp.org/2024/\">Nairobi</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.apachefriends.org/download.html\">XAMP</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/advanced-custom-fields/\">ACF</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://x.com/ICTTeachersUG\">ICT Teachers Association of Uganda (ITAU)</a> on X</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.ictteachersug.net/\">ICT Teachers&#8217; Association of Uganda [ITAU]</a> website</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/abraham-waita/\">Abraham on LinkedIn</a></p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 07 Aug 2024 14:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:14:\"Nathan Wrigley\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:24;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:99:\"Do The Woo Community: Insights from the 2023 State of Enterprise WordPress Survey with Mario Peshev\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=85063\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:98:\"https://dothewoo.io/insights-from-the-2023-state-of-enterprise-wordpress-survey-with-mario-peshev/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:47385:\"<div class=\"wp-block-group has-border-color has-light-gray-background-color has-background has-small-font-size has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-31 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p class=\"has-secondary-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-9acf640b7ba38a84a982fc35d618387f\">This show is sponsored by&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-vertical is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-30 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-7 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-29 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-base-background-color has-background wp-container-content-13 has-global-padding is-content-justification-left is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-28 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<img width=\"1650\" height=\"1650\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/dothewoo.io/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/avalara-logo-_dtw.png?resize=1650%2C1650&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-75400\" />\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-container-content-14\"><strong><a href=\"https://www.avalara.com/us/en/products/enterprise.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Avalara</a></strong>:  providing cloud-based and scalable global tax compliance that is hassle-free, safe and secure plus topped off with enterprise-class security.</p>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\nEpisode Transcript\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p>Brad:<br />Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Enterprise WordPress Podcast, Scaling Enterprise. This is The Inside Track edition of the podcast, which I&#8217;m very excited to dig into. So on this show, we&#8217;re really digging into enterprise WordPress, of course, but really within the community, within WordPress, what&#8217;s happening, what&#8217;s going on with Enterprise? Who&#8217;s launching cool sites, what kind of crazy functionality or examples within the enterprise have we seen to really kind of validate what WordPress can do at scale within these large organizations? So I&#8217;m really excited to dig into a new show. So I have brought on a couple of my friends, good friends on the show. So let&#8217;s meet them and then we&#8217;ll dive right into it. First up, we got Mr. Tom over there at Human Made. Tom, why don’t you tell everybody who you are and what you do, especially around the enterprise side of WordPress?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />Sure. Well, if folks listen to the episode we put out a couple of weeks ago, which was with Karim, you might remember me from that. If not, plug, go and listen to it. It was a great episode. I’m the co-founder and CEO of Human Made. Also, one of the founding members of Scale Consortium. Been doing Enterprise WordPress for coming on 15 years or so. So got plenty of scars and stories to tell.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Lots of stories to tell. We can’t wait to get into some of those stories, the ones you’re allowed to share outside those NDAs. Right. And next up, of course, we have Mario. Mario, why don’t you introduce yourself.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mario:<br />Hey everyone. First off, pleased to be here. Great crowd. I’ve known you guys for over a decade now, maybe close to 15 years. My name is Mario Peshev. I run several different companies. One of them is DevriX, it’s a WordPress Boutique Agency, profiling in small and medium enterprises. Even though we work with some Fortune one thousands, we used to work with Meta, automotive companies, banks, telecom. So Enterprise is very dear to my heart. If it wasn’t for Enterprise, I wouldn’t have discovered WordPress. Well, and I wouldn’t have stuck long enough in WordPress if it wasn’t for Enterprise either. So that’s definitely something I love talking about.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Awesome. And I’m especially excited because not only do we know each other, we all run our own agencies. We’ve been doing this for, well longer than 10 years, over a decade. But I also think it’s interesting because of just our locations within the world and especially kind of bringing not only experiences within WordPress online but also where we live. So I’m in Philadelphia. I’m on the east coast in the United States. Tom, where are you at?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />I am in France. So currently enjoying the Olympics originally from the UK.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Are you at the Olympics?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />Well, I want to say I’m at the Olympics right now.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Are you living in France now? I didn’t even realize you moved.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />I do live in France. Yeah, I’ve lived here for a couple of years now.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />You are a big Olympics fan if you moved there two years ahead just to get ready for it. That’s cool. Mario, you’re a little bit further over there, right? Where are you at?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mario:<br />Not too far off from Tom right now I’m in Bulgaria, which is just one time zone ahead, but we used to be a little further apart when you used to live in the UK, right, Tom?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />Exactly. Yeah,</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />A little closer. But yeah, I think it’s just having not only a perspective, like I said, of what we do online because it’s amazing that we can connect this. I’m still blown away by technology and that we can just kind of get together and chat about things. So it’s got to be a lot of fun. I think we’re going to have different perspectives as well with our clients and just our experiences. So let’s jump in. I know we’ve got a lot of big topics you want to kind of dive into and talk about. The first one that I really, I like to ask people this and people ask me this a lot too, but I think it’s a fun question. It’s really just defining enterprise specifically within the WordPress world, right? It’s such a big, it’s just a heavy word, right? Enterprise. What does that mean? I’d love to hear, I think each one of us maybe take a turn and just kind of in our own words, when someone says enterprise or enterprise WordPress, what does that mean to you? How do you describe WordPress within the enterprise? And Tom, you want to kick us off?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />Sure. I mean, probably in its simplest form inside the WordPress space, usually it just means big stuff, right? Big projects or big companies or something. Probably that’s how we all first came across it. WordPress is starting to be used for more serious stuff. I think also you can think in the broader software world, enterprise often just means customized, not going to take it off the shelf. You go on the pricing page, it says a hundred bucks a month, 200 bucks a month contact us. Enterprise is the contact us option.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />It’s the no price listed option, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />No price listed option. There’s no off the shelf plan for you. You need to customize it. And so you need to work with, often you need to work with one of our service providers to do that. I think in the enterprise CMS space, you can often think of the difference as being enterprises need a platform. They don’t really think of it as we want a website and what’s the CMS? We need a website. They think we need a platform to power all our websites to power all the stuff we’re doing to integrate with all the stuff we are using to fit with all of our workflows, hence the need for it to be heavily customized. So I guess, yeah, probably that’s how I’d think about it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Yeah. Mario, let’s see your take and I’ll give you mine and we’ll see if we’re all thinking the same way, if we’re laying a little different.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mario:<br />Yeah, I love the definition of enterprise being the cost plan. It’s always custom. You always talk to an enterprise sales rep. You always have a custom quote, an RFP, and presentations, index, and stuff. And the reason you do that is you’re talking to 12 different stakeholders. You have to escalate to the board and get approved from the CFO and it’s just slow to this process. If we have to get super literal, once again enterprises, it comes from Latin and then it goes to French. And I don’t speak French, so Tom can correct me, but it comes from, what is it, entrepreneur or so, which is like to undertake or however it’s translated. Tom, do you know the actual definition? You’ve been living there for two years.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />I don’t know the old French definition of enterprise unfortunately, but I’ll do my research for the next show.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mario:<br />There we go. But yeah, I mean essentially it is just to undertake and we are all entrepreneurs, right? Because we start new businesses, we undertake actions. So semantically speaking, even one person company is an enterprise. Realistically speaking, we have micro-enterprises up to 10 people or a certain revenue cap. Then we have small enterprises up to 50 people, small-medium enterprises up to 250, and then they just keep scaling up in the grand scheme of things. Looking at the top of the chart, I always take a look at like s and p 500 or NASDAQ companies. Most of the FAANG companies, they do have hundreds of thousands of employees. Amazon I believe is probably the largest out of the tech at least. They used to pick at about 1.5 million staff members and now they’re at 1.3, 1.4. But we are talking about tens, hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of team members, which of course, if you can imagine org chart, it gets to lots of different C levels and VPs and senior VPs and then directors and supervisors and all these kind of trailing down. So the difference between a small startup project and an enterprise, I usually speak to more people. You have to take more decisions, you have to deal with data privacy, security, scalability, and lots of other different considerations that you may not necessarily be dealing with in a small team environment. How about you, Brad?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Yeah, I kind of go back to how Tom simplifies it, like big WordPress, that’s how I’ve always described it. Big WordPress, big challenges, big goals, big needs. When I say big, it may not be that what they might need is necessarily a big lift to build, but when you build something in the enterprise for a big conglomerate or big company, things take a lot more work to do, even simple tasks. So I think big, it’s not always this massively complex customized system. It just means building things in that are going to scale in the enterprise. They’re going to handle the traffic, they’re going to meet all those really strict security requirements, accessibility requirements, all these things that every company out there is important to them. But they need agencies like ours to help them through that, navigate through that, especially when it comes to WordPress. But yeah, I love to hear, I think most people think when you hear enterprise, it’s like Microsoft or it’s just these biggest of the biggest, the whatever, the s and p 100. But it could</p>\n\n\n\n<p>be quite a bit bigger than that. I honestly think, Tom, you guys do a lot of work with universities and stuff. I think a lot of the universities, I consider enterprise because they have big needs and big challenges. They certainly have enterprise needs.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>A lot of content that they’re trying to figure out how to make it in a way that people can find what they need, which is probably one of the biggest challenges for universities and even local government is the sheer size of content they have to have out there and then make it easy to find what you’re looking for. But yeah, that’s how I kind of define it. I think it’s a big term because it should be, but it can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, which we’ll talk about a little bit. The state of enterprise survey that went out, we’ll get into that, but the way it’s defined within the survey, which I thought was pretty good too, is a high profile brand, a publisher with a national and or global audience or a corporate conglomerate. So I think that kind of helps summarize it too, but it’s really big WordPress big needs.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So why is enterprise and WordPress so important? Why are we talking about it? Especially when I say we, I mean not just the three of us on the show, but agencies that really help build WordPress at scale within the enterprise. Obviously this is important to us, but why is it important for the larger community within WordPress? Why is enterprise, why are we focused so much on it? Why are we spending so much time? I almost try to help grow WordPress within the enterprise, help corporations realize that it’s a great product that can compete with anything that they’re using, but why is it because the majority of people that use WordPress could care less about the enterprise, right? This is a very small percentage of WordPress builders and users that would be considered in this space. So the big question is why is it important for WordPress that we’re actually talking about the enterprise and trying to get more people to adopt WordPress within the enterprise? I’ll just open it up, whoever wants to jump in.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mario:<br />Well, so from where I stand, one of the reasons is the versatility of WordPress as a platform. So when we take a look at different software applications or tools or so, we do have a pretty broad spectrum of a single creator or a solopreneur type of systems and very high scale enterprise solutions out there. And WordPress is one of the very few platforms that is able to serve both at the same time. There are certain, and I’m probably not going to name specific names or so, but just the Indie hacker solopreneur tools that are one personality. They don’t have a team plan. You cannot add more members. There’s no security data, privacy support and stuff. It’s just one single person can use that. All the freelancers or single individual people. And then there’s the Adobes, the sales forces and all the other corporations building pretty hardcore tools, think of SAP, you cannot deploy an SAP as an ERP for any organization that has fewer than I would say, 500 people probably if you’re 200, maybe you can use it and not spend the 20 people’s time, full-time operating DRP.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But for the most part, you need to be a massive conglomerate to be able to use that. And unlike all of these, WordPress is probably the one, and if not one and only one of the very few ones, Drupal may probably fall in the same camp, but the one that’s super suitable for starting out being a freelancer or photographer or a journalist or blogger or so, but then at the same time serving universities and NASA and the White House and all the other different segments covering the enterprise. So the reason it’s so important is historically speaking in 2003, when WordPress started, it started as a blogging platform. It wasn’t supposed to be the go-to enterprise tool, while other players in the market were, that’s how they started. This was the pivot, this was the goal. And now we are managing, what is it, 43.5% or so of the web, but our enterprise coverage is still limited because we’re not talking enough about all the capabilities and opportunities of WordPress, which is why lots of enterprise are just not considering WordPress as one of the suitable tools to use, which is a shame. And that’s essentially why we have to talk more about that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />I mean, that probably speaks to the opportunity and challenge for WordPress and why it’s so important. In some ways, as you said, Brad, the majority of users aren’t enterprise users. It’s a fairly small user base, but actually as an economic segment of the WordPress economy or something, enterprise is actually huge. I dunno what the stats would be, but I imagine it’s up there, maybe hosting and e-commerce or something is larger, but probably after that, the enterprise part of the ecosystem is probably the third largest or something. And so the amount of money and resources that bring into the ecosystem is pretty large. And we see that the number of enterprise agencies that contribute means core or something. Again, it’s fairly sizable. So I think that’s just one factor. I think part of its importance is just the outside influence it has and the outside role it has to play.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think in WordPress, I think also just the fact that these well-known brands, sure, maybe you’re just moving one website to WordPress when you’re doing NASA, but it’s such a well-known brand, it has this huge impact actually out in the market in terms of WordPress being taken seriously. I mean, one of the things I love about WordPress is that NASA are using WordPress core. You as a freelance photographer can go and download WordPress core and you get the same thing. That’s actually really not true. SAP is a good example. You wouldn’t want to use SAP if you were a freelance photographer, but you couldn’t even if you wanted to. There’s not that many products actually where that’s true, where you really get the same product. And so I think that’s another reason why it’s important. All of the innovation that happens at the enterprise tier can flow down and be available to everybody, which is really cool.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Yeah, I mean that’s a great point. The innovation, and especially from open source, the more we contribute, we as a community within the WordPress project, the more anyone contributes, the better the project’s going to be, the better the software. And so the enterprise is bringing where we see those contributions, which many of these large organizations are starting to get into more, which is awesome. But we’re starting to see where they’re more focused on these areas that smaller sites would never even maybe run into those problems. Like the scalability side of it, right? The site’s going to have a million posts in one month, is that going to scale? So being able to contribute, you can go in there and actually help WordPress if there are bottlenecks, of course we know it can scale and can handle that, right? Especially if you have the right host and server setup.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But understanding if there are bottlenecks, I can think of a specific one. This was back, I don’t know, eight, 10 years ago. But as multi-site was starting to get more popular, networks were getting bigger, and WordPress was having a real challenge handling large networks. So if you imagine you have a thousand sites in your network and you got a network dropdown list, it would just bomb because it was trying to load all these sites. And same with users. If you had a million users, WordPress would just break because you couldn’t load a million. It would just break trying to pull that data back. These sites that were basically pushing WordPress to its limits, expose those limits. And now we have as a community worked on that and made it so it does scale. You can have an unlimited amount of users, unlimited amount of sites in the network, and it’s not just going to blow up, it’s going to work. And that all came from these larger builds, kind of pushing the limits and then discovering, Hey, we got to fix this. This isn’t going to scale if we don’t do something about it. And now it’s like I said, we’ve all seen it at scale on these massive networks or massive sites. So I love that idea of just those larger problems trickling down and hopefully being fixed within the enterprise teams and contributing back. That’s the number one thing. If they’re not contributing back then open source isn’t going to work anyways, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />I mean, I think we’ve seen that play out right where it used to be. I mean, I think probably one of the reasons why Enterprise WordPress is kind of synonymous with just big WordPress is actually it was quite hard to do big WordPress back in the day. And so a lot of the stuff we were solving then as enterprise-like service providers was just scale and performance. But actually a lot of that has been solved. Now it’s not particularly hard to run WordPress at scale. And that’s thanks to that work trickling down being fed back directly and now we can focus on other stuff, which is cool.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />And going back to another point, I think, Tom, you might’ve made around kind of validating WordPress, you mentioned NASA, Whitehouse.gov, probably the number one, probably the most targeted government website in the world, probably one of ‘em at least, if not number one, is running WordPress. So being able to say that with full confidence as an agency owner trying to validate WordPress to an enterprise, there’s a lot of value behind</p>\n\n\n\n<p>that, right? No, we didn’t build that site, but somebody did it. It’s amazing. And it’s on WordPress, right? NASA is doing it. Whitehouse.gov is doing it. You can do it. Microsoft’s running it. Their whole security team does an annual audit of WordPress. If Microsoft says it’s okay to run it, it’s probably okay for you. So it helps validate and make these conversations easier, especially as we’re trying to bring WordPress to the table for a lot of these organizations.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Because I think, Mario, you mentioned earlier about Adobe, AEM. I can remember sales pitches where I’m sitting there in a boardroom of Viacom pitching WordPress and why all their sites should be on WordPress and some weren’t, and they’re trying to figure out what they wanted to go all in on. And then right behind us was Adobe with about 30 people, multiple professors of data science coming up there showing all, and I’m like, versus my much smaller team, I’m like, how do we compete? And that was where it was really eyeopening that we need to collectively within this community, those of us that are in the WordPress space, we need to work together. We need to put our voices together, our thoughts together and help lift WordPress into the enterprise base, which is exactly what we’re doing here, right? Exactly what Scale Consortium is doing, what we’re doing here, working with the WordPress core team and contributors, because now we’re working on the WordPress dot org slash enterprise page.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>If you didn’t know that exists, go check it out. Not a ton to look at yet, but I promise you we’re working on it. And so it’s nice to see that things are happening because even just a couple of years ago, none of this, there wasn’t an enterprise page. We were all on our own trying to pitch WordPress and realizing that’s not going to get us where we need to go. So that’s why it’s important because WordPress actually grows because of the enterprise, just like it grows from small businesses using it. So it is a good thing for all of us.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I want to mention a little bit about the state of the Enterprise WordPress survey. So this has gone around and it was from 2023, so obviously we’re a little past the halfway mark of 2024, but I think it’s interesting to look at it retrospectively, but also I wanted to also highlight the fact that the 2024 survey is also live. So if you have not seen it, definitely go. It’s SOEWP.com, state of enterprise WordPress. SOEPW.com is where you can take the 2024 survey, but you can also view the results of last year’s survey. This is really spearheaded by a number of agencies. I think Big Bite and Human Made, you guys were pretty involved in this, and I know a lot of us were helping promote it because it’s getting data back, but essentially they interviewed approximately over a hundred corporations enterprise what would be considered enterprise level companies, enterprise brands, I should say Macy’s, NewsCorp. These are big, these are enterprise, right? Big WordPress the Times, and it got some really interesting data back. So if you guys have any data points that stand out, there are a few that stood out to me that I thought we should touch on, but if there’s any other data points you want to talk about, please, let’s do it because it’s interesting. I love this type of data. I haven’t seen this before specifically on WordPress and Enterprise, so just having anything to talk about and look at it I think is really interesting. Yeah,</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />I mean that’s the first thing. I think before we get to the actual results, I think that this is such a great example of something that doesn’t happen unless we all get together and do it right, that we actually have a real lack of data underpinning what we’re doing and pooling our resources to put something like this together. It’s not actually a huge amount of work and it can bring a lot of value even though this one is a few months past now, it’s the first one. So actually we can learn a lot from it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />In the next one. I would expect now that people know it’s there, I’m sure some people missed it. And now on the WordPress dot org slash enterprise page, they have linked it up with a nice banner at the bottom. So I would expect we’ll have quite a bit more data points for the next one. So definitely share it. If you listen to the show, check it out, share it with anyone, especially corporations that might actively want to fill this out. It can really help shape some of the future of WordPress, especially at the enterprise side.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />What stood out to you from the actual results?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />So the one that stood out to me, I think really just like the important factors of choosing WordPress. This is something, as an agency owner, I like to know this. Why did they choose WordPress? What were the items that kind of pushed them over the edge? I think cost is always going to be one of those things that’s always going to be a bit of a factor. But when you’re in the enterprise, WordPress is probably one of the cheaper options when you really think about licensing and costs and Adobe and Sitecore and some others versus WordPress. WordPress is generally going to come out on top, probably almost in every case. It’s going to come out on top from a cost perspective. But the number one thing on this list in terms of what was the most important was functionality followed by scalability, extensibility, and usability.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So it’s really about the flexibility of WordPress, which I guess that makes sense. That’s probably what I would assume too, but the WordPress is so flexible, scalable that they can really extend it to do what they need to do. And that is the core of enterprise because WordPress is not going to just install it and it’s ready for the enterprise. There is a lot you have to do to kind of get it ready. And a lot of that is customizations. And a lot of that’s really specific to the organization you’re working with because again, they have such unique setups and unique systems, and most of them, they may be on a WP engine or WordPressVIP, but many of them are not. A lot of them are still hosting their own stack or maybe they have their own hardware, which I know sounds crazy, but some of these organizations do because how they can control everything about what’s on that and who has control over that data, which is important to them. But on the flip side, something that caught my attention was the fact that multilingual capabilities were not as important, which I thought was kind of surprising. Every larger corporation I worked with, multilingual capabilities were important. Having localized content, especially in any region, there’s a global presence, an office or something of that company, but I’m really surprised it was over 57% said it’s not important. Over half said it’s not important. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />Well, what’s your take on that, Mario? I wonder if that gels with what you would assume the importance of multilingual would be?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mario:<br />Well, and that’s something that made an impression on me as well. So my personal way I’m interpreting this at least is first off, we do have a pretty sizable percentage of publishers here in that specific survey. So I would say that when we’re considering national publishers, particularly in, let’s say, the States or the UK or post-Australia, they wouldn’t be focusing that much on multilingual. That’s kind of one thing that stands out. We’ve been working with different, again, enterprises primarily in North America, they don’t care that much about multilingual. And again, as someone who lived in Europe, and my language, I’m not a native English speaker, I can totally understand how important this may be in certain scenarios. Again, you guys have worked with Microsoft or some of the other top orgs that have 12 languages in the dropdown by default. So for some that’s important, but this may not necessarily be the most integral factor here.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The other thing that stands in mind that kind of stuck up here is I believe that they fully realize the power of workplace multi-site and the ability to launch different instances for different regions for sites because it’s pretty common in enterprise. Most if you go to Nike or the Louis Vuitton brand, you land on the landing page with lots of flags and say, Hey, which country? And then it leads you to some form of a localized website. So these are completely different standalone instances. And I think this is also pretty important to recognize enterprise are not afraid of maintaining 20 different websites, even though they may look alike and just run a DevOps tooling to upgrade all this at the same time, unlike what we do ourselves. But a couple of other things that stood out in the survey, first off, and Brad kind of briefly touched on that, but functionality like 70% of the IS functionality was very important.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>This was the leading factor. 70% said WordPress is there for functionality. And I think we are not talking about this enough when I think of what are the options for an enterprise, they can go with a hosted kind of CMS through show, which of course it is hosted. It has a limited finite number of integrations, modules, developers through show. They can do bespoke, build a team and build something for three years and spend like $12 million just building a bespoke system and then still don’t have integrations or they can go open source. And when I think of open source, I just can’t think of any better solution that has, again, the flexibility</p>\n\n\n\n<p>, versatility, integration, feature set number of plugins or API integrations, we show it to WordPress. So I think this is pretty important. And last but not least, or actually two things, but I’ll try to do it real quick. First off is build cost. So 22% of the service that they build their enterprise MVP, like less than 50 grand. I challenge any enterprise to do the same with any other platform whatsoever.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Is that a one-pager?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mario:<br />Well, yeah, maybe just a mockup. Maybe just a mockup. If their creative team doesn’t waste four times on charting a log or something.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />It’s just a strategy phase</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mario:<br />And hosting costs. We get lots of enterprises migrating to us because they say, Hey, we find it better to pay, let’s say 10 grand a month retainer for you to changes because we pay more for hosting. So we are paying 15 grand, 20 grand or so for just keeping the lights on, no custom development or changes or human contact whatsoever. And we believe we can bring our hosting down to 2 to 5k a month and spend the other 10k and to essentially incur zero costs whatsoever and actually get professional development behind. So comparing that with what it actually costs, maintaining an enterprise system once it’s already there is something that is a place where WordPress really shines.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Yeah, I mean they’re all good points for sure. I did pick up on the cost thing and it’s hard to say less than 50,000, whatever that was, but there are smaller projects within Enterprise. But yeah, like you said, there’s usually a lot more hoops you have to jump through. So even a simple website turns into a much larger lift and build. The one area I think we really as a community need to work on or maybe as an enterprise we need to work on is contributing. So if you look at does your organization contribute to open source, 62% said no, just flat out, nope, we do not contribute. Now I do think you should take that with a grain of salt because that holds true if they’re not working with an agency, if they’re not working with outside partners, if it’s just their development team within their organization, they’re not contributing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That’s a flat no. However, I bet this is a little bit mixed bag, right? Where the no is, no, we don’t. But we work with DevriX or we work with Human Made, may work with WebDevStudios and they do. It’s like indirectly by them hiring us and letting us build their sites and investing in not only their site but in us as an agency, we’re able to roll that forward into our five for the future efforts and our contribution efforts. I know of our agencies contribute to WordPress. I know that for a fact and we would not do that if we didn’t have an agency or did not have good clients that could allow us the time to do that. So I do think we should take that grain of salt. I’ve worked with a lot of enterprise companies that don’t contribute, but the agencies and companies that work with do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />I think it’s something we could do quite a bit more around actually as a space, like you say, I think a lot of those companies don’t really realize that’s the case. We are probably not doing a good enough job of making that part of the pitch. I think it’s pretty common these days more and more common for this open source contribution stuff to fit quite nicely into goals or other initiatives that are happening in the enterprise. Again, there are dots that are probably not being connected. Even some kind of five for the Future Rep program that could extend to enterprise users of WordPress I think would be pretty interesting to think about.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Yeah, the great way to look at it too is if your team, your developers are contributing. It’s not just putting things on the void and your corporation organization gets nothing out of it, right? Yes, they’re contributing to WordPress, which of course you’re going to directly benefit from, but you’re also leveling up your developers. They’re a hundred percent getting better at WordPress and understanding how WordPress works and getting into the core software and understanding how to read the code and how to work with Track and how to interact with the community. So your developers are going to level up, which means you’re going to get more out of them. The value is going to increase out of the salary versus benefits that you’re getting from them and work that you’re getting. So there are just a lot of advantages to it. But I think organizations, it’s a bit of a mindset shift.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>They need to be working on our stuff. Why are they working over there? Well, they are working on your stuff by working over there and you can also prioritize initiatives within contributing that are important to your organization. It’s still contributing. It’s still helping. Even if you’re saying, I really want you to contribute to this thing, we kind of need it. It still helps everybody. So I don’t think that’s a bad thing. If you want to contribute one thing, if you’re looking for an easy ticket, get featured images automatically added into RSS feeds, that’s still out there. But if that’s important to your organization, your team could do that and it could probably get in the next release of WordPress. So that’s probably, like you say, there’s an educational component to it too of they just look at it as time they’re not spending on the business, but they actually kind of are. So that’s something we’re working on we&#8217;ll continue to work on because we love contributing to WordPress all of us. So it’s just working with these organizations and helping them understand how they can do it and how that benefits them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />Something that jumped out to me in the survey that I’ll just mention at the end was the demographic of the respondents. I think something like 40, maybe slightly higher percent were leadership positions, which again, we’ve not been doing this survey before, but I would think that reflects a change compared to five, six years ago when actually WordPress was usually coming in bottom up. It wasn’t leadership led as I think that’s the stat I’ll be keeping an eye on over the surveys as we run them year on year. I think that for me tracks one of the major threads of enterprise WordPress as evolution. How do we go from bottom-up champion to leadership led?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Yeah, that’s actually a great point. You’re not wrong. It used to stubble up from it, the tech people that worked with it and kind of liked it and they were like, Hey, we should look at this. Or maybe even marketing had an angle on it too because they were familiar with it from a marketing angle. But yeah, seeing it from the top down, that is a bit of a shift and that’s a good shift. And then of course just around this one is very encouraging too, and we’ll wrap up the survey here, but around the block editor, right, we’re always talking about what is the adoption, who’s using the block editor? Are they on the old classic WYSIWYG editor? And by and large, it seems like they are adopting it. There’s only about 19% that said they’re still on classic. And I think I was thinking about this.<br />I’m like, I’m sure this is largely impacted by the fact that corporations and enterprise have budgets. They have money they can invest to say we need to upgrade. This is the new thing, we got to get on it. Whereas smaller and medium businesses, if they just rebuilt their site a couple of years ago, they’re not going to reinvest to do it just to get blocks right now, if you’re a media site, you should because the value you’re bringing to your editors is going to be worth it. But a lot of sites, it’s just not there. So I would imagine that’s part of it. But just to see the adoption with the block editor being so high, and to be fair, about 27% is both so kind of a mixed bag, but at least they are using some blocks and then 54%, so over half is they’re all in on the block editor in Gutenberg. So that’s nice to see.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />Yeah, it’d be interesting to compare that to the broader, I dunno how that compares to broader usage of block editor, but I did that. I think that also connects back to the previous point where actually a lot of us who are doing enterprise work, were involved in the block editor because we are part of the project. And so we were able to bring that experience very early to our clients. A lot of us were launching Production Enterprise on the plugin before it was even merged into core. Whereas a lot of the broader web ecosystem, that transition has been more difficult. The ramp ups were more difficult learning a whole new thing, whereas I think of enterprise agencies didn’t face that so much. We were involved already.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Yeah, a hundred percent. It’s such a game changer for organizations, especially media organizations. Once they see it, there’s that light bulb moment. Oh yeah, we definitely want that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />Yeah, demo’s amazing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Cool. Well, we’re kind of coming up on time, so I want to briefly just touch on upcoming events. I know we have WordCamp US coming up, so if you’re anywhere you want to come, it’s in Portland, Oregon and it’s coming up on September 17th, 20th. I will be there. Are either one of you going to be able to make WordCamp US this year?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />I will also be there. Yeah, looking forward to that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad</p>\n\n\n\n<p>:<br />Yeah, Tom will be there. Mario, you got to make it over.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mario:<br />It’s close to school year, so unfortunately I’ll be here.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Yeah, I know. Yeah, timing gets tough. The timing of WordCamp US is always a little bit tough with school. I think last year was the week right before school started for me. I know it’s different everywhere, but you got to kind of juggle that with the family, right? So it’ll be a really fun event. So Tom and I will be there, a number of members of the Scale Consortium with the group of agencies that are working with the enterprise. So if you’re there, track us down. Love to talk, WordPress Talk, enterprise, all that good stuff. I want to give you both a chance to promote where people can find you online if they want to reach out and talk to you, blog, your website, company, Twitter, X, whatever. So Tom, where can people track you down?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />Probably Twitter is the best, just my name @Tom Willmot. You should check out scaleconsortium.org if you’re interested in what we’re doing over there. And this general initiative to come together as an enterprise WordPress space and grow the pie for us all and humanmade.com.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Awesome. Hey Mario, where can everyone find you?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mario:<br />Yeah, LinkedIn and Twitter are going to be the two best places. Look up Mario Peshev and more than happy to chat. If you need any WordPress or B2B growth solutions, DevriX.com is the place to go. And if you have any questions about enterprise, I’m pretty sure that all of us are going to be more than happy to help out. We are not just spending a hundred percent of our time on just sales pitches and closing business. We definitely want to make WordPress for the enterprise a better place and educating a lot for free writing books, giving sessions and podcasts and lots of different events. So it’s a completely different culture than what you’re probably used to IT webinars and sales pitches and BDR calls as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />WordPress is a fun side of enterprise.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mario:<br />Yes,</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Brad:<br />Definitely less stuffy over here. Come on in. The water’s fine, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I also love the fact you both called it Twitter. I’m still in the Twitter camp, so I’m on Twitter still somehow. Williamsba and over at webdevstudios.com if you want to check out our professional side of things. But this has really been a lot of fun. I’m really excited about the show. I want to bring on a lot of different guests and get different experiences. I want to bring on not just agencies, I want to bring on site administrators, site owners, I want to bring on marketing. I want to bring on people that are using WordPress in the enterprise and really hear about their experiences. Good, bad, otherwise, right? But get a lot of people from Scale Consortium on here as well because they’re all working within the enterprise. So it’s going to be a lot of fun. So if you’re interested in coming on the show, please reach out to myself or Bob WP, you can hit us up. And we’re in most of the WordPress Slacks post status, so love to have you on and looking forward to some future episodes on WordPress and the enterprise, the inside view. So I appreciate it, Tom. Mario, thanks for joining and we’ll see everyone next time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mario:<br />Great chat everyone. See you</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tom:<br />See you next time.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n\n<p>In this first episode of <strong><em>The Inside Track</em></strong> via our show, <strong><em>Scaling Enterprise, WordPress and OSS</em></strong>, hosts <strong>Brad Williams</strong> and <strong>Tom Willmot</strong>, along with special guest <strong>Mario Peshev from DevriX</strong>, introduce you to the world of enterprise WordPress. Together, they share the unique challenges and opportunities of using WordPress at scale within large organizations. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>They discuss the definition of enterprise in the context of WordPress, share insights from their extensive experience running their own agencies, and highlight key findings from the State of Enterprise WordPress survey. Additionally, they touch on the importance of contributing to open source, and the impact of multilingual capabilities. </p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Takeaways</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Definition of Enterprise WordPress</strong>: Enterprise WordPress refers to large-scale WordPress implementations that cater to big projects or companies, often requiring customized solutions to meet complex needs.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Importance of Functionality</strong>: The primary reason enterprises choose WordPress is its flexibility and functionality, which allows it to be extended and customized to meet specific organizational requirements.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Cost-Effectiveness</strong>: WordPress is often a more cost-effective option compared to other enterprise solutions, making it an attractive choice for companies looking to manage their budgets while achieving robust functionality.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Multilingual Capabilities</strong>: Surprisingly, multilingual capabilities were not deemed as critical by many enterprises, despite the expectation that larger organizations would prioritize localized content.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Contribution to Open Source</strong>: A significant number of enterprises do not directly contribute to open source. However, many indirectly support contributions through the agencies they work with, which invest time and resources back into the WordPress community.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Leadership Involvement</strong>: There is a shift towards leadership-led adoption of WordPress in enterprises, indicating that decision-makers are recognizing the value and capabilities of WordPress for large-scale projects.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Adoption of the Block Editor</strong>: A majority of enterprises have adopted the Gutenberg block editor, showing a trend towards utilizing the latest WordPress features to enhance content management and editing capabilities.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Community and Collaboration</strong>: The episode emphasizes the importance of collaboration within the WordPress community to continue advancing the platform, particularly in the enterprise space, and highlights initiatives like Scale Consortium.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Links</h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://scaleconsortium.org/\">Scale Consortium</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://soewp.com/\">Take the survey &#8220;State of Enterprise WordPress, 2024 Report&#8221; </a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://soewp.com/2023-report/\">See the report for the 2023 State of Enterprise WordPress</a></strong></li>\n</ul>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Wed, 07 Aug 2024 08:50:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:25;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:107:\"Do The Woo Community: A Deep Dive into Block Bindings, APIs, and the LSX Tour Operator Plugin with Ash Shaw\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=84990\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:90:\"https://dothewoo.io/a-deep-dive-into-block-bindings-apis-and-the-lsx-tour-operator-plugin/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:49606:\"<div class=\"wp-block-group has-border-color has-light-gray-background-color has-background has-small-font-size has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-36 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p class=\"has-secondary-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-9acf640b7ba38a84a982fc35d618387f\">This show is sponsored by&#8230;</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-vertical is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-35 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-8 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-34 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-base-background-color has-background wp-container-content-15 has-global-padding is-content-justification-left is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-33 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<img width=\"1650\" height=\"1650\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/dothewoo.io/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/avalara-logo-_dtw.png?resize=1650%2C1650&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-75400\" />\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow\">\n<p class=\"wp-container-content-16\"><strong><a href=\"https://developer.avalara.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Avalara</a></strong>: help developers make sure their Woo projects are tax compliance done right with Avalara&#8217;s API. Visit their extensive developer resources today.</p>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n\nEpisode Transcript\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p>Zach:<br />Hello and welcome to another episode of the Woo DevChat. I am here with Carl Alexander, as usual, and Carl, I see Carl board peeking over your shoulder there. How are the two of you doing?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Always, always creeping out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Right? Right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />I mean, he&#8217;s doing what he needs to do. Creep out people on Zoom calls and also scare children at birthday parties. That&#8217;s his retirement life.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />I am coming up on an interesting milestone. I believe the first time that we met was at a WordCamp Minneapolis and it&#8217;s just around the corner again.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />That&#8217;s good that you remember because most of my interactions with people are like, I don&#8217;t remember the first time I met you. I just know, I don&#8217;t remember not knowing you. We crossed paths so many times and I was like, but I don&#8217;t know when it was. I just don&#8217;t know when it was the first time. I think my most vivid memory of, okay, I really know this person was like, and we met a few times already, was at Pressnomics.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />You were sitting in the lobby talking to someone, I don&#8217;t know who, but you were sitting in the hotel lobby having a chat with someone and I just remember, I dunno, that&#8217;s my most vivid memory of, okay, this is Zach.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />I think my most vivid memory was in one of the after parties. We were in a large venue and it was you, me, Michelle Schulp, and a few other people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Yeah. I think most people&#8217;s most vivid, vivid memories of me are after parties. I was going to say the same. If you ask Robert Jacobi, that&#8217;s all he talks about.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Right, and I have to correct myself. It&#8217;s Michelle Schulp Hunt now. Congratulations, Michelle.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Oh yeah, Michelle Schulp Hunt. Yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Yeah. So WordCamp Minneapolis is right around the corner. It&#8217;s coming up on August 16th. I will be there. It&#8217;s at the Mall of America this year. So if you&#8217;re listening to this episode and you are anywhere near Minneapolis St. Paul, please come join us. Go to Minneapolis dot WordCamp dot org slash 2024 and I would love to see some of you there. Maybe we can have an onsite dev chat with some of the people. So yeah, I&#8217;m looking forward to going.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Exciting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Yeah, it&#8217;ll be a good time. And then right around the corner after that is WordCamp US in Portland.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Yeah, so I&#8217;ll be there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />I will definitely be there as well. And it&#8217;s going to be, I think, a really good camp from everything that I&#8217;m seeing. The venue looks cool now. Everything looks like it&#8217;s going to be a good time.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Is it going to be Portland weird?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />I think so. And I think that you may have just introduced yourself. So for anybody who is wondering what the third voice there is, that is Ash Shaw. Ash, why don&#8217;t you give us a little bit of an introduction of yourself?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Hi, I am Ash. Yeah, I&#8217;m 43 now. I started my career in tech back in &#8217;99 when Microsoft was trying to find cheap labor. So they came up with MCSE. I quickly learned that that wasn&#8217;t really that much fun and we&#8217;ve got a great Linux community in Cape Town called Plug Cape Linux User Group. I discovered them through a friend and a few people in the group showed me some tricks. I fell in love with open source, more specifically open source in the broader term. I got a CIS admin job at a university. Moved on from that to starting Lightspeed Development, which I shortened to Lightspeed back in 2003. We moved to working with WordPress in about 2007. The inspiration came from something called BarCamp. BarCamp Cape Town. They were kind of informal community organized events, not about specific tech, but about tech in general. I met a very interesting person back then, Jeremy Thurgood, who was working on Amazon&#8217;s cloud infrastructure way back then. I just remember he had this bizarre device attached to his laptop that was a security device, so anything in and out of his laptop was encrypted. Back then it was a brick of a laptop with this giant device attached. Very bizarre.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />That&#8217;s crazy. I&#8217;d never heard of that, but that sounds like really…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />I&#8217;d never seen that again.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Yeah, it&#8217;s like crazy. And I did some work with law firms, so they were pretty security conscious, but the best we had was the original RSA 2FAs.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Yeah, to be honest, I don&#8217;t remember what it was exactly. I just remember he said it was to encrypt the data and anything going in and out of his laptop. Yeah. Then I met another chap who introduced me to WordPress and blogging and I realized that there was a whole community behind it and communities have always intrigued me and I&#8217;m a social person, so I started getting involved in trying to find more events and then I think it was one of the first 10 WordCamps that happened in Cape Town. Matt Mullenweg attended. It was back in 2008. It was what sparked a serious round of inspiration and drive to actually learn more. My lead developer is still with my company. He joined us back in, I think it was December 2006. So that was a long time ago. And we&#8217;ve had an interesting journey through the different versions of WordPress and we built for a political party, the Democratic Alliance. We built a multi-site blogging network on an initial alpha of BuddyPress. We&#8217;ve never done that again.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />I wonder why. I wonder.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />It was the first forever. My lead developer said never again if I&#8217;m going to continue working.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />It&#8217;s so funny. One of my first projects at an agency with WordPress was around BuddyPress and I was like, what was the forum? The one that turned into the BBPress?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />The forum BBPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />It was BBPress. Okay, yeah. I was like, no, never again.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />No, they didn&#8217;t integrate properly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />But it made it so complex.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />It&#8217;s gotten better now, but it is still complex.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />I think Andy Peatling, who originally worked on it, I&#8217;m not sure if he&#8217;s still involved, but I know JJJ, he&#8217;s…</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Not, he&#8217;s not. He&#8217;s at Automattic. But I met Andy Peatling when we were using BuddyPress because I used BuddyPress as my initial way of structuring complex code and large code bases in WordPress. That was the only large code base I was aware of. So he came to WordCamp Montreal and I remember talking with him and just saying thank you. I would have no idea how to structure this code. Just like we were doing really large projects. And I&#8217;m like, how do people do this? It&#8217;s like, this is insane. And then the only example we had was BuddyPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Yeah. So the BuddyPress was quite interesting. I worked with it for quite a while. And then my passion for the community and all of that drove me to organize a couple of WordCamps in Cape Town. Then I handed over to the community in 2014. I remember it was the last WordCamp San Francisco, and I managed to get in to join the WordPress Summit where we mapped out the next year of the roadmap. It was really fascinating. And somebody at WooThemes, I was complaining to them about Canvas theme and how they kept making changes and they kept breaking all of our site&#8217;s CSS classes changing and this and that, and it was a nightmare. And he said, well, if you have a problem with it, build your own. And I thought to myself, good idea. And we based it on underscores initially and that classic theme. We were stuck with Bootstrap three until, well, it&#8217;s still got Bootstrap three.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We didn&#8217;t know how to change that. And then last year we built, or the previous theme is LSX, the classic theme. And then last year we built LSX design, which was a block-based theme, and that meant we almost had to relearn everything. I took a bit of a sabbatical in 2020 to 2021, a one-year sabbatical. And when I came back in 2022, I started researching things again and I was like, what is happening? Everything&#8217;s changed. And at the WordCamp Porto I was inspired to go down that rabbit hole. And you guys mentioned ADHD. Well, I&#8217;m in the same boat and I went deep and yeah, it&#8217;s been a great journey, I must say, figuring out where to take this product, learning all new skills. My team has been on board and we&#8217;ve had a blast.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />I think that&#8217;s why a lot of people with ADHD like to be solopreneurs or start their own thing and stuff, because a lot of ADHD people that I know also just love learning. They love learning new stuff. You get a nice dopamine hit whenever you skill up at things. So what&#8217;s the easiest way to skill up at is to just do a whole bunch of things, which business requires you to do.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />It&#8217;s been a journey I&#8217;ve gone through multiple times, right? I&#8217;ve talked about this on the show before, but I was a flash developer and I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;re aware, but that kind of disappeared overnight. So we definitely ended up having to retool a whole bunch of us into new technologies. And that&#8217;s how I ended up finding WordPress was as part of that retooling. I actually learned UX and went through a whole bunch of UX courses during that time too. And my first job after Flash was in</p>\n\n\n\n<p>a role as a UX architect, so I stepped away from development for a little while and broadened my horizons a bit and learned some design, learned some other things around what makes good user experience, and then came back to development and WordPress basically full bore after that. And the gateway to me really getting involved with WordPress was WooCommerce, and that&#8217;s why I&#8217;m here. So yeah, I mean that whole learning new things, it&#8217;s something that we are remarkably good at when it&#8217;s something we find interest in. The problem is if we don&#8217;t find interest in it, it&#8217;s very hard for us to then focus and work on it. At least I find that for myself, if I&#8217;m not interested.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />I&#8217;ve had the luck that I am pretty good at delayed gratification. So that really helps I think for that because yeah, it&#8217;s really easy. I know a lot of people that are like, oh, and they&#8217;re shifting to new things right away, and it&#8217;s hard to stay focused and do the consistent work that is required to get good at anything. Really.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />The WooCommerce software got launched at WordCamp Cape Town 2012, and that was one of the events I organized. And at that point I was working with WPEcommerce by Dan Millwood and Jeff Ward.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Yeah, I remember them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />I think Dan Mill moved into gaming. I&#8217;m not sure what happened to Jeff. He was a really great developer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Yeah, I remember Dan. We were in a couple of private Facebook groups together. I hadn&#8217;t heard his name in so long, but yeah, I remember when because they tried to get it back up and going for a little bit and then you moved on to something else.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Yeah, gaming.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />So my first real introduction to WooCommerce was building a digital marketplace for a record label that I was a part of. And so all digital, all downloads, and that was a benefit of WooCommerce that most other e-commerce platforms didn&#8217;t have at the time was the ability to create a digital marketplace really easily. We did that for every artist that was on our record label. We had a website where you could buy all of the music we had, and that was 2012 that we started the project for that. And that was built on the white light theme from Woo and just very, very early days of WooCommerce.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And last month we had Beka Rice on and we were talking about the wild west of WooCommerce development. And back then there was a board where you could go and choose plugins you wanted to develop. And that&#8217;s how all of the plugin development that became the marketplace started was with a board of ideas that people claimed things on. And so it&#8217;s really kind of interesting to see where we are today, and probably more importantly for this conversation to see that WooCommerce itself is inspiring some of the things that other people are doing, yourself included. So why don&#8217;t we talk just a little bit about where, first of all, you&#8217;ve done a large update to your plugin and that&#8217;s the LSX tour operator plugin, and you&#8217;ve been using some really, really new cutting edge features and WordPress. But first let&#8217;s talk about the inspiration that you drew from WooCommerce as you started this process of rebuilding your plugin.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />I&#8217;d say it all started with the block theme that we developed last year. We were working with Frank Klein from WP Development Courses. He was mentoring our team on block development practices, best practices, things like that. What an amazing man. He has a wealth of knowledge, I swear. He lives on the GitHub issues for WordPress and Gutenberg. You mention something and he is like, oh, well, and he goes and digs up a ticket that he was the one who either started or facilitated a bunch of information towards. So then because my company is a Woo expert company, we wanted our theme to be deeply integrated with Woo blocks. That was a bit of a nightmare last year and still somewhat of a challenge this year, but in the past six months, I must say it&#8217;s gotten better, exponentially better. So we decided to add support for a lot of the block themes. I mean, the blocks that were beta blocks because I didn&#8217;t really like the original blocks, to be honest.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The product blocks that they had, they had a number of separate blocks that they then replaced with the product collection block. And the way they did that, it was really impressive for me. It&#8217;s basically like a container. And then recently you would, when you want to add a product collection, it gives you a number of templates, like five specific templates and then one general kind of default one. And that really stuck in my head. Then another one of the blocks, which is still beta product collection, came out of beta recently is the gallery beta. And that one&#8217;s so much better than the old gallery block. And I have another e-commerce site back in South Africa. It&#8217;s a side project of mine, and I build that using my company&#8217;s open source theme, and it&#8217;s like a test ground for all of what we are doing. So when something comes out, I will test everything possible. I&#8217;ll try this config and that config and that config and figure out what doesn&#8217;t work. So then I write up GitHub issues for my teammates, and then they will add support. Either it&#8217;s new support for a new WordPress release, and I must say that 6.3, 6.4, 6.5 and 6.6 releases, they just bounce the functionality and capabilities radically. And then when I was at WordCamp Europe recently, I was demoing what we are doing with the Woo blocks to both the CEO of WooCommerce, and he and Pi were really excited about this. They loved what we were doing. We&#8217;ve got full compatibility for all their blogs.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then we started on this venture of redeveloping our classic PHP-based tour operator plugin, which I was quite honestly scared of doing when we started building that plugin. It&#8217;s also an open source plugin, and it was built to work with our classic theme. And the reason it never really got adopted was because it only worked with that one theme. It was too much to actually get it to work with many themes. We would&#8217;ve needed to write so much code to add compatibility. Now with block themes and blocks, this opens a whole lot of potential. We haven&#8217;t done the testing with other themes yet, but I imagine that things are going to work pretty or better than ever they ever did in the past. So we&#8217;ve been looking at how I was just to unpack a little bit more about the tour operator plugin is it&#8217;s got three core post types with four or five taxonomies.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So you can imagine those are quite a number of templates. So these templates are needed to map out the block-based templates. They can&#8217;t all just run off essential all archives templates. They each need their own one because they have a host of custom fields. So what I&#8217;m working with my developer on is how we can approach this in a similar way to the product collection block where we&#8217;ll come up with hopefully one query loop type of block for all the post types, but realistically we&#8217;ll probably need to do a few for each of the main post types that we&#8217;re still experimenting with. So then another thing that I&#8217;ve got earmarked is the pattern assembler within WooCommerce for customizing the design.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I&#8217;ve been testing, it&#8217;s not in the main release yet from what I understand. I think it&#8217;s in a future release. It&#8217;s only in the beta versions, but I imagine if I had eight pairs of fonts for a tour operator site and the ability to then define site logo and site icon and all of that sort of thing through a similar interface that would radically reduce the time that we need to build sites. What we have done with quite a lot of success so far is migrated the many custom fields. So just to give you an idea, a single tour, we will have a couple of the main fields. It&#8217;s got its normal WordPress fields, title, excerpts, body, but then we&#8217;ve also got a, there&#8217;s a featured image, which is standard, but then we also have a hero image that could be a wide image that isn&#8217;t very tall or high. And then a host of values like price and day-by-day itineraries are repeatable groups of fields. So day one or day one to day three, we&#8217;ll then have a number of fields. We solved those in the past using CMB2, which is a good framework. It worked well for us. Have you guys got experience?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />That&#8217;s old? I&#8217;ve used it before. It&#8217;s been around.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />I feel like I saw it almost 10 years ago.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />So we can bypass a lot of that. We need it for some of the things that we want to achieve, but with the block bindings API we&#8217;re able to hook into the original slugs that we&#8217;d created for the custom fields. And one of the things that we&#8217;ve developed for our tour operator plugin is an integration with a data partner. So they&#8217;re called whereto.com and they have two types of customers, accommodation providers and tour operators. The accommodation providers pump in their accommodation information like descriptions, rooms, all of that sort of thing. And then tour operators, when they create digital itineraries, they would say, I start in this city and I go to that city and I go to this region, and then they create a really rich media itinerary. But now to display that on a website, you could just embed it with an iframe, but that&#8217;s not great. So we built an integration to their rest API that literally connects to every single data point they have for destinations.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />You cache that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Well, we actually import it and we&#8217;ve set up triggers that it&#8217;ll poll a specified cron job to check at certain times. Is there a change? Pull it in. We&#8217;ve got rules that we can set up where if the WordPress side has been changed, then it won&#8217;t change. It won&#8217;t import and overwrite. Or maybe you do want it to, there</p>\n\n\n\n<p>are a host of ways we can configure nonetheless, the where to importer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />You happy with that?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Yeah, it&#8217;s working really well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />I&#8217;m a big fan of consuming API now. I think that&#8217;s way better than a lot of stuff that we had to do early on, like you said, iframes or I feel like that&#8217;s a nice change of the development landscape in the last 10 years as people are just like, now let me just do an API for this. And then they just let you pull the data and then you get it yourself.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />So much better. It does become somewhat unwieldy because imagine that you have 500 accommodation listings attached to 50 tours or a hundred tours and all of the images attached to that, and then the people who load the accommodation data, they don&#8217;t necessarily know that images need to be resized and whatnot. So we over the years had to develop methods to resize images on import scale things. And with the day-by-day itineraries, there aren&#8217;t actually images attached to an individual day. So we managed to create a way for it to automatically assign a random image to the day, for example. And that would be an image from the accommodation listing that&#8217;s attached to that day.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Yeah, exactly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />One of the things that we&#8217;ve done to interlink the different post types is to use a version of Posts 2 Posts by Scribu.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />I remember that. Yep. Oh my God. Yeah, he&#8217;s the OG WPCLI developer too, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />He discontinued development on that plugin, but that&#8217;s not an issue because we&#8217;ve modified it and brought it into our system.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />And it wasn&#8217;t a lot of code, if I remember correctly. It was easy to, if you wanted to just pull it into your own code base, it wasn&#8217;t a huge, it was one of those small plugins that do a lot, that can do a lot of lifting, but code-wise, it wasn&#8217;t like, oh, this is so big that there&#8217;s no way we can bring this into our own code base. It was simple. So it was good. It was easy for other developers to just look at what he did and bring it in.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />I think context is important here for people who aren&#8217;t familiar. So what the Posts 2 Posts plugin did was it allowed you to create many relationships between posts. And as we know, or you may not know if you&#8217;re listening to this, posts are everything in WordPress pretty much. So pages are posts. Posts are posts.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />It&#8217;s like the core data type of WordPress.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />WooCommerce orders are post types.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Yeah, everything&#8217;s a post type, which is why the scaling issue that we basically were beating the dead horse of the high-performance order tables.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Yeah, now that high-performance order storage exists, it&#8217;s not quite a post type anymore for orders, which is a good thing. Right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />I was thinking about that too. You were describing your data model earlier and I was like, oh, I wonder how you were saying, I mean, you&#8217;ll have issues like scaling with anything with WordPress. You were talking about 500 accommodations and 80 tours, and that can have an impact as well on performance.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />With the importer, it does in time. So you can imagine the number of images that get imported into the database for each listing and all of that. So that&#8217;s something where we&#8217;ve learned how to manage the larger sites. Most smaller sites, it&#8217;s not an issue on the larger sites. We manage those on a case-by-case basis. But yeah, the post-to-post really helped us create the relationships. So for example, if you import a tour, you&#8217;ll have those accommodation items connected. You&#8217;ll also connect destinations. Destinations are hierarchical, like pages are hierarchical where you&#8217;ve got a top level and a sub-level. So a destination is to the top level is a country and the sub-level is a region. And those have different templates. So if you were on a country, you don&#8217;t display accommodation, but you do display featured tours. Tours move through a country, they also move through a region, but accommodation would only display on a region template, for example.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So yeah, one of the next things that we&#8217;ve got planned is obviously with all of this kind of data, searching for the information for the end user is critical. And we&#8217;ve used FacetWP for a long time and sometimes SearchWP, although I&#8217;m not sure that that helps the performance very much. It does sometimes help having a search engine. But FacetWP is a great plugin for our needs. So we built a little integration to the classic plugin. Now they have a block. It&#8217;s just really for short codes. It&#8217;s not really a true block, and we do some styling around that. Ideally, what I want to be doing with in the future, and it&#8217;s on our roadmap, is something like Woo filters where you&#8217;ve got your active filters, your price slider, filter by post type, filter by taxonomy, filter by featured, and something that we have that filtering on archives being your top level or category top level for a post type being all tours or a category archive.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And those filters can be relevant to that post type or that category. But then what happens when you search globally, because a lot of people want to search the site globally. So then we&#8217;ve come up with a solution using Facet WP where one of the filters will be content type. So say that user does a search in the header for Cape Town where I&#8217;m from, and it comes up with blog posts, pages, destinations, tours, accommodation reviews, special offers, and maybe a team members even attached to mentions Cape Town. So then that filtering allows you to filter by content type. So that&#8217;s something we haven&#8217;t started with that yet, but I mapped everything out for it today actually while I was chatting about things with my developer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Then the checkout block is something I want to start pulling apart as an inquiry because I would like customers in the future, or not customers, but users of the plugin in the future, not to have to depend on a form plugin. And I was thinking that if we could do something like a checkout block, but an inquiry block where I drop it into either a section on the page or a mode or something like that, that would be really great to post that information to a post type like orders, but it would be inquiries. And if you think about the block bindings API, so if you&#8217;ve got a single tour, we&#8217;ve managed to get the vast majority of fields to output properly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>One thing I&#8217;m not sure how my developer is going to solve, but he has a plan is as I mentioned, that repeatable field, we have repeatable fields for gallery images as well. So if you add an image, you need to add alt information, alt tags, you need to add maybe a caption or you add a host of info. So that part that&#8217;s on the roadmap. But we are very happy with the first part of the rebuild. A lot of it was done via the site editor and I did that and with the help of my developer. Then once I designed all the layouts, he would help me add some of the block bindings code to the plugin, then I&#8217;d work with it a little bit. I&#8217;d do some designs, he&#8217;d take my block templates, he&#8217;d put them into the plugin, and then I&#8217;d do some more and back and forth like that. So it&#8217;s been a really fun journey and amazing to push the limits of the site editor.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Yeah, because that&#8217;s all relatively new too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Yeah, exactly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Do you feel it&#8217;s stable enough? Like you worry that they&#8217;ll, one of the things that with the Gutenberg experiment is that things have not been always that stable.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />So one of the things that I&#8217;m a little bit worried about now, we&#8217;ve looked into it, and again, my worry has a plan for that, but that is the change of the theme to theme JSON 3, where there are now defined spacing values that are within the theme JSON and or name spaces. I&#8217;m not sure what the correct terminology is. And also for font sizes or font names, should I say the sizes? You can decide because when we started last year, I was in discussion with Carolina who had done an audit of a hundred block themes, and she had taken the average of different naming for both spacing and for font sizes. So they&#8217;ve changed a few things from what the average in the community was, and that is going to probably cause HAC because then those changes, either we are going to do a find and replace in the database or I&#8217;m interested to see how we do that. And I just redeveloped my company website, so I spent a lot of time setting font sizes and setting spacing and using our own theme JSON values. So I imagine that&#8217;s going to take some time to refactor.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />So it&#8217;s my understanding that it only uses the new defaults if there&#8217;s nothing set in the theme already. So it shouldn&#8217;t override anything.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />No, it won&#8217;t. But I&#8217;m somebody who likes to do things the WordPress way, and I would like future sites that we develop to use the new naming space namespace. And I think rather following what the standards are than trying to do your own thing is a better approach. And it&#8217;s becoming much easier to do that with theming, with block themes now, before it was the Wild West with themes, I mean classic themes that developed their own options frameworks, and that was a nightmare. So I want to steer clear of that sort of thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Yeah, I think we&#8217;re finally getting out of the world where the theme could be a kitchen sink theme, right? Where it included a whole bunch of functionality that wasn&#8217;t in any way related to anything it needed to be. And so I think we&#8217;re finally moving away from that with block themes, and hopefully we&#8217;ll get away from the world where people had this necessity to package 482 plugins with their theme just to</p>\n\n\n\n<p>make it look like it had more functionality than it did because that&#8217;s been a horrible practice the whole time. And that&#8217;s what I call a kitchen sink theme, right? It&#8217;s everything and the kitchen sink.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Indeed.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Those are really, really horrible practices to just have a theme do more than theme, right? That&#8217;s plugin territory and always should have been, but we ended up building themes that did way more than just the visual theming of a site. And so I think this starts to refocus themes as being themes and not theme plus functionality. Patterns are a theme-related thing. And the ability to set patterns in your theme JSON for your theme and share patterns that you&#8217;ve created in the pattern library is huge, right? That gives us new design capability. It doesn&#8217;t relegate us to only being able to use the things that are available inside the available blocks. We now have these groupings of patterns that are also available. And it looks like in your theme, you have a number of patterns. They actually look really great, and you have all of these available to make sure that people have all the building blocks they need, plus all of these design templates to start from as they&#8217;re building.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Yeah, the patterns were an interesting journey for us when we started. We didn&#8217;t know what to do to be quite honest. Now we have a much better concept of how we could use patterns and what we need to use them for. So the patterns that are in our C1 WordPress dot org are quite literally following what a lot of people in last year were doing. Frost wp, for example, was our inspiration. So then we made some changes to our color scheme and the patterns aren&#8217;t looking great at the moment, so I&#8217;m busy working on some patent changes for next week&#8217;s release and we&#8217;re going to be sorting out colors and that sort of thing. As we were talking about earlier, the learning i dopamine hits, well, it was a bit of a light bulb moment when I started creating some patterns for our own company website in the most recent rebuild. And now I know what full page patterns I want to create, and those full page patterns are going to be made up of useful smaller patterns, not just random team patterns and random testimonial patterns and things like that. I know what I want now. I just need to finish building them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />I think the other really cool thing I saw that you&#8217;ve done is you&#8217;ve actually released a Figma design system document that fits alongside your plugin and it&#8217;s a design system in general. You have a style guide, but you&#8217;ve made extensive use of Figma variables. And I think that&#8217;s huge because I&#8217;ve been digging further and further into Figma lately. I had a baseline knowledge, but I&#8217;m really digging into components and how creating components with variants works and being able to build a library of interactive things that you can build your prototypes with. And the power is just so deep in what Figma can do. So seeing that you&#8217;ve built a toolkit that&#8217;s built very similarly to the way that I&#8217;m trying to do the work that I do right now in Figma is pretty cool.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />That was an interesting journey as well, because we started the Figma file last year and we created three separate files, a style guide file, a WordPress file, and a WooCommerce file because we thought that was a good idea to separate them. It would be if you were in a large organization doing a large design system for IBM or something like that, or Uber, A lot of them do these separate files, and that&#8217;s where I took some of my inspiration from. But then this year we decided when we did a radical upgrade on the design system to merge everything into a single file, and we started with the LSX design theme, and we called it the LSX design system.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And there we created two sections within it, major sections other than the style guide and the cover, and that was for the WordPress pages and elements. And we broke those down by components and then blocks and then patterns and template parts and full page layouts and templates. And then we did a WooCommerce section in a similar structure. And then recently after WordCamp Europe, as I mentioned, they really liked what we were doing. So I got the idea to showcase what we&#8217;re doing with WooCommerce in a prototype. And my teammate, Zared, has done the most incredible prototype. The Woo prototype actually allows you to add to cart and you can add up to four products to your mini cart. You can view the mini cart, you can empty the mini cart, you can search. It&#8217;s insane. And we really pushed the limits of variables.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And last year, none of that was actually possible because what we were researching was the lead designer, I forget his name right now, the lead designer from GitHub was working on design tokens and it was a separate system. And we stumbled, I stumbled upon it through the WordPress vip.com websites and their blog where they were doing stuff in Figma and then exporting to theme JSON and pretty much populating the theme JSON with the colors and fonts and values that you would need or that you were working on in Figma. That was really powerful. But now this year, Figma has next leveled it. And when we started on the LSX tour operator design system, we put so much work into the variables and the naming conventions and all of that, we forked the file on the LSX design file, and we came up with that as a basis for the tour operator plugin came up with new colors because it has a different color scheme. We&#8217;ve gone from more of a safari color scheme. And then we left the Woo prototype in there while we were generating the tour operator prototype. We could only start that obviously once we&#8217;d finished all the templates for a tour operator.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And it&#8217;s been an interesting revelation because the WooCommerce prototype was very much variable heavy and quite technical and interactive. Whereas the tour operator one is more of a clickable prototype. There&#8217;s less that you can do with it. We don&#8217;t add anything to a cart. We also don&#8217;t really need to test doing filling in a checkout form or something like that. So that sort of thing is unnecessary. And we decided to focus on creating a very clear prototype design that will guide us for the coming months of our development on the tour operator plugin. So that&#8217;s, I&#8217;ve got to say, been very rewarding and satisfying. My teammate, Zared, has in the space of four months, gone from zero Figma knowledge to advanced Figma design. He wasn&#8217;t even a designer before.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />That&#8217;s awesome. That&#8217;s awesome. Now I want to be an advanced Figma person. All I&#8217;ve had is Figma stuff shared with me. And then I just look at it a bit and it&#8217;s like that&#8217;s the extent of my interaction is with Figma. I&#8217;m kind of hyped up just hearing you talk about it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />It&#8217;s really, it&#8217;s amazing. And their videos on the YouTube channel, their own videos are incredible. They all come with Figma files, workspace files, you can learn so much. And unfortunately, they made a radical interface change this week. I think it was this week. I opened it up on Monday I think it was, and I was like, what&#8217;s happening? Where is everything? My teammates had the same thing. We needed to get stuff done, and the two of us were faffing trying to figure out, oh, where&#8217;s this? And where&#8217;s now we&#8217;ve got it. But it was the most radical interface change I&#8217;ve seen in an application in ages.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Yeah, they announced all of that at Config that they were going to be changing the UI considerably. And just to bring this full circle to where we started today with talking about history, I have known Sho Kuwamoto, who is the VP of product at Figma, and I&#8217;ve known him for a very long time. He was the senior director of engineering at Adobe for the tools portion of Flex and was very responsible for the creation of Flash Catalyst, which was a design tool for the Flex framework. And so he&#8217;s been at Figma now for nine years. And so a lot of the beauty of what Figma is came out of learnings that happened in the Flash world. And so very, very cool stuff. And we are now seeing the benefit of all of that history. And so if you are interested in any way in learning a little bit about that history, there was a session during Config, which is Figma&#8217;s conference for those of you who are listening who don&#8217;t know about the impact of Flash on Figma and in general on the world. And so if you want to see where all of this stuff that we&#8217;re doing now came from back in the final days of we were innovating very quickly, and all of those innovations JavaScript has finally caught up to. So there&#8217;s been a very large gap in time that the things that we used to do in Flash have not been possible, or at least not as easy to do by any means. And so now we&#8217;ve gotten to a point where it&#8217;s all come full circle and tools like Figma exist because of that history. So really, really cool stuff. So I think that&#8217;s a really good spot to start to wrap up here today. It&#8217;s been really great getting to know some of your processes here. And I&#8217;m sure we could probably talk for another hour or two, but I think that Bob would give us trouble.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />We never got to the questions I have from pre-show. So definitely.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />I think that Bob might get in trouble if we keep him much longer. So I&#8217;m trying to not hashtag Bug Bob too much. I&#8217;m still trying. It&#8217;s going to happen. So if you&#8217;re listening to this and you want to help me make Bob smile, just post something with hashtag Bug Bob, and let&#8217;s see if we can get a whole bunch of things in his inbox. Go ahead and tag him in too @BobWP and let&#8217;s have some fun with that. But it&#8217;s really a remarkable thing that you&#8217;ve built so much on the new functionality that&#8217;s</p>\n\n\n\n<p>in the block editor, the block bindings API is very new. A lot of these things are cutting edge, and it&#8217;s really cool to see some of that happening. And so I think it would be great to have another conversation at some point in the future. But before we do that, let&#8217;s go ahead and wrap today up. So Ash, where do people go to find you on this collection of tubes we call the internet?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />So our company website would be a good place. We&#8217;ve got LightspeedWP Agency, that&#8217;s for more agency-related things, or our product website, which is LSX design on the web. Generally, our social profiles are Lightspeedwp. So if you look at GitHub, YouTube, Twitter, those three are all LightspeedWP and Facebook and Instagram are LightspeedWPdev.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Very cool. And before we close up here, I just generally ask Carl if he has a final question.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />We got to save Bob today. We got to save Bob.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Okay.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />I was just excited by the Figma stuff.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />It&#8217;s really neat.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />I lit up at that because I was just like, for me, I think, and probably for a lot of developers and even yourself before you got into it, Figma for me is like, it&#8217;s a designer tool. You do mockups with it, and that&#8217;s about it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Well, I&#8217;ve posted two blog posts yesterday. I posted a blog post on announcing the new LSX tour operator design system and our process and a number of things just to explain more about how we got to the end point. And then today I posted a blog post kind of in preparation for this, about our journey from classic to cutting edge. That&#8217;s what I called it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Bob will link those in the show notes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Exactly. So there&#8217;s a lot more information there on exactly what you wanted to know.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />Very cool. Yeah, I&#8217;m sure that there will be a lot of people that have an interest in the other things that you&#8217;ve done here. Those blog posts are great resources. That&#8217;s part of what I was going through while I was asking questions here. And we will link some other things to the show notes for this show that we&#8217;ve talked about, things like FacetWP and that new store designer in WooCommerce and some of the other stuff. But yeah, I really appreciate the time you spent to talk with us about your process here. These are always really interesting conversations, and I&#8217;m glad that we were able to dig deep on some of the things. Let&#8217;s talk again in the future here. We&#8217;ll work out when, and we&#8217;ll have you back to talk some more.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Well, thanks for letting me talk about my passions, and it was an absolute blast. You guys are very interesting, and I&#8217;m sure we could go on forever.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zach:<br />We could. Well, as always, if you have any ideas for what you&#8217;d like to hear here on the Woo DevChats, Carl and I and Mike and Marcel are all open to ideas to hearing your feedback. So again, that&#8217;s hashtag Bug Bob on every social media platform, just to let him know what you want to hear or go to DotheWoo.io and let us know there. And we really appreciate the fact that you sit here and listen to Carl and I geek out with a guest every month. So thank you for being here, Ash. It&#8217;s been great getting to know you and we will talk soon.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash:<br />Cheers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Carl:<br />Talk soon.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode of <strong><em>Woo DevChat</em></strong>, hosts <strong>Zach and Carl</strong> chat with <strong>Ash Shaw from LightspeedWP</strong> about the evolution of WordPress development and his journey in the tech industry. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ash shares insights into the challenges and opportunities of integrating cutting-edge features like block bindings and APIs into WordPress plugins. They look into the inspiration drawn from WooCommerce for the LSX tour operator plugin and discuss the significance of community and continuous learning in tech. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>The conversation highlights the importance of adapting to new technologies, the power of open-source communities, and the pushing the boundaries of what&#8217;s possible in WordPress development.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Takeaways</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Integration Challenges and Innovations</strong>: Ash Shaw discusses the integration of cutting-edge features like block bindings and APIs into WordPress plugins, specifically the LSX tour operator plugin.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Inspiration from WooCommerce</strong>: WooCommerce served as a significant inspiration for Ash&#8217;s development process, highlighting how it influenced the rebuilding of his plugin.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Evolution of WordPress Development</strong>: The conversation delves into the evolution of WordPress, focusing on the transition from classic PHP-based themes to modern block-based themes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Community and Continuous Learning</strong>: The importance of community involvement and continuous learning in the tech industry is emphasized, with Ash sharing his journey from attending WordCamps to organizing them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Figma Design System</strong>: Ash highlights the creation of a Figma design system for their plugin, showcasing the power of Figma variables and components in developing interactive prototypes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Faceted Search Integration</strong>: The use of FacetWP for advanced search capabilities in WordPress sites is discussed, including plans to further enhance this functionality.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>API Consumption and Data Management</strong>: The benefits of consuming APIs for data management are explored, including the importation and caching of data from external sources like whereto.com.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Impact of ADHD on Learning and Productivity</strong>: The hosts and Ash touch on how ADHD influences their learning processes and productivity, finding ways to leverage it positively in their work.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Links</h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashshaw/\">Ash on LinkedIn</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://lightspeedwp.agency/\">LightSpeedWP.agency</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/company/lightspeedwp/\">LightSpeed on LinkedIn</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://github.com/lightspeedwp/\">LightSpeed on Github</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://lightspeedwp.agency/streamlining-design-and-development-with-figma/\">Streamlining Open Source Development with Figma at LightSpeed</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://lightspeedwp.agency/from-classic-to-cutting-edge/\">The re-birth of the LSX Tour Operator plugin</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://lightspeedwp.agency/announcing-the-new-lsx-tour-operator-design-system/\">Announcing the new LSX Tour Operator Design System</a></strong></li>\n</ul>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Tue, 06 Aug 2024 09:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:26;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:87:\"Do The Woo Community: Let’s Talk WordCampUS 2024 with Julia, Aaron, Katie and Bernard\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:28:\"https://dothewoo.io/?p=85016\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:81:\"https://dothewoo.io/lets-talk-wordcampus-2024-with-julia-aaron-katie-and-bernard/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:41723:\"Episode Transcript\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained\">\n<p>BobWP:<br />Well, today&#8217;s show, of course, is a special show because there is a huge event just around the corner, and not only do I have wonderful guests here, but this is a very, not the first time, but we have one of our sponsors send somebody here virtually as a guest host, Bernard Meyer. How do you like this? How do you like being a co-host?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bernard:<br />It is my first time and 30 seconds in, it is one of the most amazing experiences of my life. It&#8217;s only going to get better.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, so why don&#8217;t you just give a quick intro of who you are because this is really the first time you&#8217;ve been on the podcast.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bernard:<br />Yeah. So my name is Bernard Meyer. I&#8217;m the Senior Director of Communications and Creative at Omnisend. Omnisend is one of the sponsors for WordCamp US. Actually, WordCamp US will be our one-year anniversary of WordCamps. We just started last year at WordCamp US 2023, so this will be a full-year cycle. We are excited. Each WordCamp has been even better. This will be my first time at WordCamp US, so I&#8217;m expecting amazing things only because of what our CEO and VP of Marketing said about the last WordCamp US. According to what I heard, this is going to be even better. I&#8217;m also a contributor on the marketing team and the media core team and an organizer on the WordCamp Asia communications team. So I&#8217;m deep in there and, yeah, that&#8217;s my short version.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Very cool. Now, we have three of the organizers here as we usually do on Do the Woo for the flagship WordCamps. We always love to get that pumped up. We got to start talking about this. Everybody&#8217;s excited. I&#8217;m flying all the way from Portugal. I will say that I still question why they waited until I moved from the Pacific Northwest before putting a WordCamp up there, but I have my suspicions, and that&#8217;s for another entire podcast, so we won&#8217;t get into that part of it. Anyway, we&#8217;re going to have our three guests introduce themselves and we&#8217;re going to dive into WordCamp US. So let&#8217;s start with Katie.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Katie:<br />Hi all. I&#8217;m Katie Richards. I am one of the four folks on the lead organizing team for WordCamp US this year. This is my first time on the lead team. Last year I was involved with WordCamp US as the lead of the PR and comms team. So naturally this year, I am working with PR and comms, but also with the volunteers and the photography teams, trying to make sure that we have enough folks on the ground to make this event awesome and everyone knows what they need to know to have a successful event. When I&#8217;m not doing WordCamp stuff, I am the project manager of the community growth team at A2 Hosting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Cool. Julia.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Julia:<br />Hello. Well, it&#8217;s a delight to be here and I last met in Taiwan at WordCamp Asia over a really lovely dinner, so it&#8217;s good to see you again, Bernard. My name&#8217;s Julia Golomb and I also am part of the lead four for WordCamp US along with Katie and Aaron who are here, and then Sandy Edwards who&#8217;s not on this recording today. And I am sponsored by Automattic to contribute full-time to the WordPress community team.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />All right, and last, but very not least, Aaron.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Aaron:<br />So I&#8217;m Aaron Campbell. I&#8217;m also on that lead four team for WordCamp US. I&#8217;ve been in the WordPress space a long time, probably, I guess, going on almost 20 years now, contributing to the project for maybe 18 of those. I used to contribute mostly through code and now I contribute mostly through things like organizing events like WordCamp US, things like that. When I am not organizing WordCamp US, I am Director of Product at A2 Hosting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Alright, excellent. Well, let&#8217;s start first with Portland, Oregon. So tell us about Portland, Oregon. I could probably say a few things. I actually lived right between Portland and Seattle for many, many, many, many years. I&#8217;ve been to Portland a few times. Portland. What is special about Portland or what do you want to share about Portland?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Julia:<br />I am happy to start because I love Portland, Oregon. As a city, I make an effort to visit every single year because one of my best friends lives there and there really the nature is what stands out to me. So there are mountains and rivers and the coast. The Pacific Coast is a couple hours west of Portland, but just within the city, you can find hiking and beautiful views and also incredible food. Portland is really well known as a foodie hub and a coffee hub. So everyone who&#8217;s coming to WordCamp US, I encourage you to venture out around Portland to find some great spots for dinner, and I have no doubt that everyone will be having some fabulous coffee while you&#8217;re in town too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Aaron:<br />I have to agree with Julia. It&#8217;s a beautiful place. The food and the coffee definitely speak to me, if you will. I love it. I definitely take a little bit more of the kind of pragmatic approach to describing the city in that I feel like it really fits our needs for a conference as well. And it&#8217;s not easy to find a place for a conference like WordCamp US. It&#8217;s not a hundred thousand person conference, but we&#8217;re also pretty big now, and it can be hard to find a place and we bring in a global audience, right? Finding a place that can fit us, that can serve our needs that everybody can travel to easily. It&#8217;s a big ask and Portland really stepped up for us this year. The city itself is helping us in a lot of ways. They put a lot of effort into making sure that conferences can be held at this conference center and interact well with all the hotels and shops and whatnot around. I&#8217;m really excited just that they have been able to pull together this experience for us and for everybody attending.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Katie, have you ever been to Portland?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Katie:<br />I have not. Oregon is the one state on the west coast that I have not been to and I am very excited to check it off my bucket list, but I am excited for this event in Portland for all of the reasons that Julia and Aaron have mentioned, but also knowing that this is the first of two years that we get to be in the same venue, the same location, get to know the city. I think it&#8217;s going to really enhance our experience this year, but also next year as we regather and kind of have a homecoming.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Julia:<br />I also want to add that the venue where WordCamp US is taking place this year is absolutely gorgeous. It was just renovated in 2019 through a $40 million renovation project. It&#8217;s a super sustainable building. I think maybe I want to say Lead Platinum, which in the US is a certification for building sustainability. So it&#8217;s just a really nice place to be, and I&#8217;m excited to get to spend several days in such a beautiful space.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bernard:<br />I had a question. So for WordCamp EU, we did a little music video and we were thinking about doing something at Omnisend for Portland and I grew up in Miami and the furthest north I&#8217;ve been to the west coast, but the furthest north was like San Francisco. So I don&#8217;t know much about Portland except I had two things in my head, nature and coffee. So I&#8217;m happy to know that it&#8217;s a foodie culture as well. But there was one slogan when I was looking at Portland that I was wondering about it&#8217;s Keep Portland Weird. Is that a strong character of Portland or a good description or is that something that&#8217;s minimal?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Aaron:<br />I think one of the cool ways that I see that coming through in Portland is the push for unique everything. Essentially fewer chains and more unique. So in my experience in Portland, and I maybe have not had as many as some of the others here, but restaurants that you just can&#8217;t find anywhere else, experiences that you can&#8217;t find anywhere else. To me that&#8217;s the weird part of keep it weird. And as someone who loves to experience through their unique food especially, I found that particularly fantastic that you didn&#8217;t have to sort through a million chains that I can already get at my home in Oklahoma. There was plenty of unique stuff there, so I&#8217;m excited for our guests to be able to experience the same.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Julia:<br />I also want to add that there is a light rail that runs through Portland and so there&#8217;s good public transit to get directly from the airport. You just get on this light rail train and take it from the airport to the venue. The Oregon Convention Center and the official WordCamp US hotel is directly across the street from the venue, and so you can go from your hotel to the airport and vice versa via public transit. I think it&#8217;s, I want to say, a $2 ticket. So people, of course, there&#8217;s rideshare available in Portland and people can use that, but there&#8217;s also the light rail as an option for getting around.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />I think keeping it weird, what I love about that is it&#8217;s not only Portland&#8217;s goal, but I think what Aaron said, it&#8217;s a suggestion to everybody visiting. So it&#8217;s like, yeah, be unique and there&#8217;s just little different parts of Portland that you&#8217;ll find uniquely weird in one way or another and how you define weird, that can be something different for everyone, but I think that a lot of WordPressors will fit in well there. So I want to hear more about the actual venue. So let&#8217;s go from Portland, zero in on the venue. You talked a little bit about it, Julia, but there seems to be a lot of buzz around the venue. I&#8217;d love to hear from all three of you what it is that excites you about this venue, even though I don&#8217;t know if any of you have had a chance to visit it, but just from what you&#8217;re doing</p>\n\n\n\n<p>through research and planning.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Aaron:<br />I have not had a chance to visit the venue. I have had the chance to watch some walkthrough videos that some of our folks have put together. There are a number of things that really excite me about this venue, though. My excitement really started to build when our designer, Sam, was pulling together some of the design concepts for our WordCamp US site this year and was just pulling up photos from the venue to use as inspiration and kind of the way that they&#8217;ve brought a lot of that nature feel of the Portland area inside the venue. It was exciting, it was fun, it is going to be a really nice place to be, and then it continued to grow as I saw just how much space we&#8217;re able to get at this venue, something that we have struggled with over the last couple of years, getting enough space that&#8217;s all close together for us to have our talks and our sponsors and all of our people, a couple thousand people all in one, I guess, kind of a cohesive group.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And this year we have that. I&#8217;m super excited about how much we&#8217;re going to be able to do in the space, how much we&#8217;ve been able to open things up to sponsors to be more creative, more space for them to be and for how we can bring everyone together and not have to have some chunks of our talks or sponsors or whatever really far away from everyone else. We can have lots of space and have it all in one place. And then the last thing that I want to point out that&#8217;s been super exciting is the sustainability of the venue. And Julia brought this up and can probably speak a little bit more to it, but it&#8217;s not just that the venue is sustainable in the way it was built or the way that they operate. They hold us to a sustainability standard as well, and it&#8217;s been really nice having them come alongside us in that and help us figure out how we can have a 2000 person event, have our sponsors still have the impact that they want, and be as good to the environment as we can in the process. So sustainable materials, they&#8217;ve been really good at helping us do that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Katie:<br />I think the thing that I&#8217;m most excited about over last year as far as the venue goes is that the space makes sense for us. We don&#8217;t have to move floors to get to additional conference spaces. Everything is kind of close by. It&#8217;ll be a natural flow in and out of programming rooms. Looking at it from a sponsor&#8217;s perspective, I&#8217;m really excited about what the sponsor hall is going to look like and the interactions we&#8217;re going to be able to have with attendees as they come in and out, which is really fun. I&#8217;m also excited that we haven&#8217;t mentioned this, I think, that the conference hotel for those who have purchased a ticket, it&#8217;s in your confirmation, you can book your hotel room. It&#8217;s right across the street, so as you leave your room in the morning to grab your coffee, you&#8217;re going to run into WordCamp attendees. You&#8217;ll be walking across the street with folks that you&#8217;ll be sitting in sessions with later. Having that sense of closeness gives it more of a summer camp vibe. We&#8217;re going to be eating and hanging out with and just being around all of our WordCamp community friends for several days, and that&#8217;s incredibly exciting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />So how about if we take this a day at a time? We have four days and I&#8217;ll start with day one, contributor day. So I want to hear not only about contributor day for people that don&#8217;t know what contributor day is and the opportunities for them, but if there is anything unique to this contributor day.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Aaron:<br />I guess that one&#8217;s on me again because the mentor for the contributor team, this contributor day team this year. First of all, what are contributor days? To me, they&#8217;re a big part of what makes our WordPress project continue forward in a healthy way. We&#8217;re a mostly volunteer-driven project, and people&#8217;s lives ebb and flow for all kinds of reasons. People can contribute heavily at some times and less at other times, but these days give us the chance to really mentor in and bring in new folks to continue that healthy flow of people into our project. And so these days, it&#8217;s not just about the work that gets done on that day, although that&#8217;s great, that&#8217;s good. It&#8217;s great that we get all of our teams together and can make some progress, write some code, write some documentation, whatever it is. But to me, the coolest thing is bringing the people together and the mix of the old folks that have been contributing for a long while and the new folks that have never contributed and get us all in the same space and working together.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That&#8217;s the coolest, most exciting thing about contributor days for me personally. To that end, what this one&#8217;s going to look like, we have lots of space. Like I said, we have a nice giant hall that we&#8217;re going to be able to have all the contributors in at one time, so that is going to facilitate a lot of that meeting the people that you haven&#8217;t had the chance to meet before, getting to know the people that you&#8217;ve maybe only ever known digitally through their username on Slack, getting that chance to sit across the table from one of them or work together on a project. And so we have plenty of space to do that. And then we have a number of breakout rooms that we&#8217;re going to have available so that smaller groups can go off into a slightly lower noise area to work on something heads down if they really want to for a while. We&#8217;re going to even try to schedule out some of the times for those rooms so that if there are specific projects that teams want to work on and want people from other teams to be able to join them, they&#8217;ll be able to in these breakout rooms.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bernard:<br />I can add that I&#8217;m definitely excited just not to be a sponsor, but to be probably leading the marketing table and just to be a contributor. I love that. It&#8217;ll be my third time leading, but I love that in the beginning there&#8217;s this very small quiet phase on contributor days and then within 15 minutes people start working, there&#8217;s this nice buzz and then they go to lunch and then they come back and then you have this big networking effect where people just crossing tables and they begin to really get into the work and they begin to get into the community. Especially when I look at new contributors, they go from pretty shy before lunch to pretty happy and active and comfortable in the second part. So I&#8217;m pretty excited about that for all WordCamps, I would say definitely for us.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, for me, I think it&#8217;s sometimes I spend more time often with the community table. I&#8217;ll spend time there or within the community team, but I think this year I&#8217;m going to choose to buzz around, a fly and be the fly on the wall and just listen in because so much for me isn&#8217;t about actually getting my head down and working on things, but I&#8217;d love to hear what&#8217;s going on and there&#8217;s some teams I&#8217;ve never really sat and listened to for a while, so I think that&#8217;s going to be my goal this time around. It sounds like the perfect kind of venue for it and the space for it. So yeah, a lot of great stuff that leads us into the next day. So this is actually different because everything we&#8217;re usually like, okay, contributor day, bam, then we got two days of the event. I would like to hear about the showcase day because this is pretty cool.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Julia:<br />Wednesday, September 18th, is Showcase Day, so it&#8217;s day two of WordCamp US and Showcase Day is something that&#8217;s brand new this year for WordCamp US. The idea is to showcase the most innovative, cutting-edge uses of WordPress. So we&#8217;ll have folks showing off websites that they&#8217;ve developed that use really cool applications of WordPress and not only sites, but also plugins and just anything within the WordPress ecosystem. I&#8217;m super excited about Showcase Day. I think of everything that I&#8217;m psyched about for WordCamp US, which is a lot. Showcase day is the number one, just the caliber or the quality of presentations that we have in store for that day is phenomenal. And I would encourage everyone who&#8217;s attending WordCamp US, you do not want to miss Showcase Day. It&#8217;s the place to be.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bernard:<br />I was actually going to tell Aaron that I&#8217;m pretty excited about Contributor Day, but I&#8217;m extremely excited about Showcase. It is the number one thing. I have a general rough idea of what&#8217;s going to happen, but I actually don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s going to happen. And the way that Julia just mentioned that what they have in store is going to be amazing. I want to be there early just so I can secure a seat in the front and I want to stay there to use the bathroom before I go so I don&#8217;t move because I know that I&#8217;m going to get half the team to come leave the other half walking around and networking. But this is going to be something that we all have on our calendars and we&#8217;re fighting about who&#8217;s going to be able to show up or not.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Aaron:<br />It&#8217;s definitely something that people are going to want to watch for the speaker and talk announcements that are going to be coming out very soon that will cover both the regular classic programming days that you were talking about Bob, as well as this showcase day. There&#8217;s going to be some really exciting stuff. I think that we can probably even talk a little bit to the kind of inspiration that launched this day last year. We had a really fantastic talk by NASA that was showcasing how they were using WordPress to run their site and they did a show-off, this is how we&#8217;re doing it. And then they also did a little bit of behind the scenes, this is how we did the thing. And it seemed like that was an extremely cool way of showing not just the big number that we always hear like, oh, WordPress powers 43% of the internet and it goes from these really big exciting sites down to everybody&#8217;s hobby site.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But instead it really dug into what are some of those, what is WordPress really capable of? What does some</p>\n\n\n\n<p>of that 43% actually look like? And so we thought that worked great, let&#8217;s expand that out. Let&#8217;s give that a whole day. We are doing way more than one cool exciting site. There&#8217;s a ton of amazing stuff happening that&#8217;s powered by WordPress. And so we want to get the chance for the folks that are doing these cutting-edge, exciting, interesting, innovative things with WordPress to show us the sort of wow side of what they&#8217;re doing and then ideally some of them to even come in and show us how we did this amazing thing, but how could you do something similar? And so that&#8217;s how we&#8217;re trying to target this day, have people showing off the wow and then have some people also digging into the how ideally exciting us about WordPress and showing us how we can all level up to do that kind of exciting stuff.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />So we have Contributor Day, Showcase Day, and then we hit the big event for two days. Now I think how I&#8217;d like to take this is there&#8217;s so many pieces that happen during those two days. Let&#8217;s dive into it and I&#8217;d love to hear from all three of you on this.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Katie:<br />I know we say this every year, but one thing that WordCamp US has done consistently well and then better every year is that we&#8217;ve got an incredibly diverse range of speakers and talks for those two programming days. And not only did we build programming days with diversity in mind, but they&#8217;re excellent quality talks. So what we will have available for folks to listen to and interact with is perhaps the best programming that we&#8217;ve put together so far, which is really exciting and something that we try to do year over year is intrude and learn lessons from other WordCamps and take those into account as we start building out our programming. And that was one of the things that I learned fairly quickly on joining the lead team this year is how little I know about what goes into planning WordCamps and how much thought and work goes behind the scenes before a schedule can be announced. So it was really cool to watch come together this year and then be extra proud of the product that&#8217;s coming out of it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Julia:<br />There are two pieces that I want to highlight from our schedule this year that are different than last year and perhaps previous years. One is that we are weaving showcase day talks throughout the Thursday and Friday programming as well. And so the showcase talks will be, I believe they&#8217;ll be highlighted on the agenda in a different color just so folks know that it&#8217;s a way to have that thread woven not only on Wednesday Showcase day, but also throughout the Thursday and Friday programming. And then we also this year have included a networking hour in the schedule that&#8217;s at the end of the day on Thursday in the sponsor hall. And this is based on feedback that we&#8217;ve heard from WordCamp US attendees about really valuing the networking opportunities that they find at WordCamp US and wanting some more dedicated time to meet other folks who are there, whether that&#8217;s attendees, sponsors, speakers, and get to know them, get to connect with them on a meaningful level.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Katie:<br />And if you&#8217;re an introvert, that&#8217;s not something you need to be concerned about. We&#8217;re going to make it as easy as possible for folks who are perhaps a little less comfortable in those situations to find like-minded folks and connect with people who have similar interests and passions within the WordPress space.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Aaron:<br />As an outgoing introvert, I really appreciate that. I like to talk to people, but it can be hard to figure out where my people are, I guess so to speak. Where are the people that I can bring value to that conversation or do my part or learn something new and interesting? And so we&#8217;re trying to bring the sponsors in on that a little as well. One of the great things about WordCamps is that our attendees, they&#8217;re really our primary focus. We try to keep things extremely affordable for them to attend to make sure that their experience is amazing. I try not to talk about the money too much. It&#8217;s not what everybody wants to hear about, but every attendee costs us far more than they pay for their ticket to attend, and the sponsors are what make that possible. But not only do our sponsors come to us with the money to make this possible for all these attendees, they also come with often experts from their companies that have a wealth of knowledge to impart to our attendees.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so at times like these networking hours, it gives us the chance to leverage some of those experts and say, hey, if you want to talk about this thing, there are experts at this sponsor booth. Y&#8217;all can go hang out during networking hour and pick their brain, learn from people who are managing thousands or tens of thousands of servers, how to better manage your server. There are those people around and we&#8217;re going to be able to make that available to our attendees during networking hour.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Bernard, you said this is your one-year anniversary as a sponsor for Omnisend, and to me that&#8217;s kind of mind-blowing because it feels like you&#8217;ve been around a lot longer than that and more WordCamps than that. I don&#8217;t know. I&#8217;m thinking, wow, that&#8217;s a lot that&#8217;s happened in that period of time. What does WordCamp bring to you as a sponsor and especially hearing all of this?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bernard:<br />So I have two perspectives, have one as a sponsor and one as a sort of a contributor and a contributing member. So sometimes it&#8217;s a bit hard for me to separate those two, but both of them are related to people. I would say one on the contribution side. So of course there&#8217;s some challenges with contributing to WordPress, but every time you meet people in person, you get this surge of energy when you see like-minded people who are all working together, giving up their free time, sponsored or not, they&#8217;re giving up their time to build this thing, continue pushing it forward, and they put all of their passion into it. And I think that this is the basis for where we as sponsors see value because then you create a community of companies or plugins that also have the similar kind of philosophy. They have the same vibe.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>They&#8217;re there of course to earn money and to make sales and all that, but they have at the basis it feels like they have this urge to help each other, just whatever it is. So we have a lot of people that we may not find any particular way to work with, but we just want to connect with them and network with them and keep in touch with them and just hope that at some point in the future we&#8217;ll find some business reason to stay in touch. But for the most part, the most valuable thing that we get there is that we network with people who are valuable based on their value, based on their intelligence, based on their passion. And then the business reason comes in a little bit second. And I think the other reason is that Omnisend started more in the Shopify ecosystem and that one, it is very interesting place, but it is pretty different because that one tends to be a bit more transactional, firstly on the surface.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so there&#8217;s a lot of value placed on the size and scope of your business first and then whatever value you have, secondly. And here, no matter who you are, you can talk to Matt, you can talk to Josepha, you can talk to people who you may not have had any other opportunity to talk with before. And then you can find again places in which you can build that relationship later on. So I think for us from the first time, like I said, when our CEO and VP of marketing just attended WordCamp US, which was last year, they&#8217;ve come back with so much fire and every time we go to the WordCamps events, the flagships or the small ones, we have that fire. It is reignited again and again and again. So I think the value is one that we found one time and it is just continuous and it is always increasing. So it&#8217;s all of us an addiction, I would say everyone is fighting to go to the next WordCamp, and I think the team we&#8217;re sending keeps on getting bigger because everyone just wants to go. That&#8217;s hard to summarize, but I think people, that&#8217;s my word.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Aaron:<br />I love that. If we can be that place where it&#8217;s like, hey, come to WordCamp US, get fired up. Be the person that comes back to your team with a million great ideas and a fire behind you. I love that. I hope we&#8217;re that for all kinds of companies and people.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bernard:<br />I think that anyone who has any doubts or anyone who&#8217;s just a bit curious, the only thing I would say is, as Aaron said, the tickets for WordCamp are pretty cheap. Just go attend the WordCamp, go to the four days or the three days or just the two days, even just one day, just go to contributor showcase day and you will probably catch fire within two or three hours, I think. So any doubters, your doubts will be relieved pretty soon.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />And I think that from someone that has been going to WordCamp since, I think my first one was 2010, and I&#8217;ve gone to various ones over the years. I&#8217;ve spent many years at what I call other conferences where like you said, they&#8217;re very transactional. And I think one of the things people need to remember is that when you walk up to a sponsor at WordCamp, the best thing about that is you&#8217;re not shoved in the face with a product. You actually get to meet the people behind the product. And when I moved into the WordPress space, that was one of the things that stood out most to me was I never felt like I got to really know anybody at a company through a conference because it was that. And you&#8217;re going to get to know people, you&#8217;re going to have good conversations. You&#8217;ll probably meet them later on at a party or you&#8217;ve already met them and you&#8217;re just reconnecting again. So you&#8217;re going to meet people, you&#8217;re going to talk to people, and you&#8217;re going to probably make friends</p>\n\n\n\n<p>. It&#8217;s really valuable. And after all that is done, you go to all these side events, you&#8217;re going to go to breakfast and lunches and dinners and wander around Portland and drink craft beer and coffee and eat food. Then comes the social.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Julia:<br />Yes. I&#8217;m so glad you brought up the social. I was ready to talk about it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />We&#8217;re there now, end of day four, and it is time for the social. Tell us about the social.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Julia:<br />Alright, our four days of WordCamp US conclude on the evening of Friday, September 20th, with the WordCamp US Social, which will be held at OMSI, the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. And it&#8217;s a really cool museum on the river with a submarine, an old submarine that is in the river, and attendees can go into the submarine and tour it, which is pretty cool. There&#8217;s a planetarium programming running throughout the event, so people can pop in to see different planetarium films, and there&#8217;s going to be refreshments available. The most important thing to know is that this party, this WordCamp US social, is included with your WordCamp US ticket. Bring your badge. Your badge is your ticket for admission to the social. And if you have a guest with you who&#8217;s in Oregon traveling with you, maybe not attending the daytime programming, just buy them a ticket for WordCamp US. Make sure that you print their badge at the registration desk, and then that&#8217;s their ticket to join you as a plus one at the social. Everyone&#8217;s welcome. It&#8217;s going to be a really, really lovely event and an opportunity to get to relax and meet folks and see old friends.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Excellent. So we&#8217;re going to wrap up here and I think everybody&#8217;s excited. The thing is, probably people say, Bob, you don&#8217;t sound very exciting, but I&#8217;m holding it all inside me. That&#8217;s how I do my excitement. I never sound super overly excited, and I&#8217;m sure anybody here can attest to that. But yeah, I&#8217;ve got my flight booked, I&#8217;ve got my hotel booked. I will be staying right across the street.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Julia:<br />Bob, you&#8217;ve booked your flight, you&#8217;ve booked your hotel. Have you purchased your WordCamp US ticket?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Oh yeah, I did. And did I purchase the last one? That&#8217;s what I want to know.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Julia:<br />You did not purchase the last ticket. There are still tickets available. If you are listening to this and have not yet purchased your WordCamp US ticket, go to your computer right now and do that. Please get your ticket now. It&#8217;s really helpful for us as we&#8217;re planning to have a clear sense of numbers, and we have tons of space, so everyone who wants to come can, but just make sure you get your ticket as soon as possible.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />And we talked about all the great sponsors and I could list them all, but please go to this site, make sure you visit all the sponsors, and if you want to be one of those great sponsors and all of us clamoring up to you, are there any spots left?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Katie:<br />Yes, there are several spots left, and there is an interest form available on the website as well. So if you are thinking maybe I&#8217;d like to consider sponsoring this year, reach out, have a conversation with our sponsor team.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Julia:<br />In particular, we&#8217;ve got a couple of our lowest-cost sponsorship opportunities available for $5,000. You can have a presence in the WordCamp US sponsor hall, which means that a couple thousand people will be visiting your table. And it&#8217;s a great way to have that presence in the sponsor hall. That&#8217;s called the Our Author Level sponsorship.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Very cool. Well, first of all, I want to thank Bernard for co-hosting and also lending his perspective on the whole thing. Do make sure and visit the Omnisend Booth, find Bernard. Tell him what you thought about him as a co-host and if he should come back again.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bernard:<br />It lived up to the expectations. It was the most fantastic 50 minutes of my life.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Excellent. And thank you three and the entire team. This is huge. It&#8217;s amazing what you pull off. There&#8217;s going to be all these volunteers helping you, and it&#8217;s just your hard work and everything just is, there&#8217;s so much gratitude.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Julia:<br />You mentioned volunteers, Bob. I think we also have a few volunteers&#8217; spots still available. So if somebody is listening to this and moved to contribute to WordCamp US as a volunteer while you&#8217;re actually there, send an email to us at WordCamp.org and let us know that you want to come as a volunteer.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>BobWP:<br />Cool. Well, tons of opportunities. So yeah, go to us.wordcamp.org and the dates are September 17th through 20th. So it&#8217;s coming up real quick. I&#8217;m excited. Please come and say hi to me or find me somewhere. If you&#8217;re one of those volunteers that actually volunteered afterwards, come up and I&#8217;ll take you around and I&#8217;ll introduce you to Bernard because you&#8217;ll love the guy. And I&#8217;m so looking forward to this. And just want to thank all four of you for joining us for this particular episode. And yeah, we&#8217;ll see everybody at WordCamp US. So thank you very much.</p>\n</div>\n\n\n\n\n<p><strong>A special thanks to our sponsors who will also be sponsoring WordCampUS. Visit them on the WordCamp site.</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://us.wordcamp.org/2024/sponsor/avalara/\">Avalara</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://us.wordcamp.org/2024/sponsor/godaddy/\">GoDaddy</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://us.wordcamp.org/2024/sponsor/hostinger/\">Hostinger</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://us.wordcamp.org/2024/sponsor/omnisend/\">Omnisend</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://us.wordcamp.org/2024/sponsor/weglot/\">Weglot</a></strong></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p>Welcome to a special episode of <strong><em>WordPress Event Talk</em></strong>, where we dive into the excitement and anticipation surrounding the upcoming <strong>WordCampUS 2024</strong>, taking place September 17-20.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>In this episode, we have a unique treat for you as one of our sponsors, <strong>Omnisend</strong>, has sent their <strong>Senior Director of Communications and Creative, Bernard Meyer</strong>, to join <strong>BobWP</strong> as a guest host. And we are chatting with the three of the four organizer leads, <strong>Katie Richards, Julia Golomb and Aaron Campbell. </strong></p>\n\n\n\n<p>They chat about everything you need to know about WordCamp US, from the host city,  Portland, Oregon, to the innovative Showcase Day, and the various programming and networking opportunities that await attendees. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Whether you&#8217;re a seasoned WordCamp veteran or a first-time participant, this episode is packed with valuable insights and behind-the-scenes details that will get you pumped up for the event. </p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Highlights of WordCampUS 2024</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>WordCamp US Overview</strong>: The upcoming WordCampUS event in Portland, Oregon, promises to be an exciting and memorable occasion. Our discussion highlights the unique aspects and attractions of Portland, including its stunning natural landscapes, vibrant food and coffee culture, and the city&#8217;s quirky charm encapsulated in the slogan &#8220;Keep Portland Weird.&#8221; </p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Venue Details</strong>: The venue for WordCampUS is the Oregon Convention Center, which has recently undergone a $40 million renovation project. This sustainable building, certified with LEED Platinum, offers a beautiful and eco-friendly space for the event. Its convenient location includes a light rail connection from the airport and is directly across the street from the official WordCamp US hotel, enhancing accessibility and attendee experience.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>The Event</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>Day 1: Contributor Day</strong>:<br />Contributor Day is important for mentoring and onboarding new contributors to the WordPress project. It offers extensive networking and collaboration opportunities in a large, cohesive space with dedicated breakout rooms for focused work. This day is about more than just the work accomplished; it&#8217;s about building connections and fostering the WordPress community spirit.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Day 2: Showcase Day</strong>:<br />A new addition this year, Showcase Day is designed to highlight the most innovative and cutting-edge uses of WordPress. Attendees can look forward to great presentations and demonstrations of websites, plugins, and applications within the WordPress ecosystem. This day aims to inspire and showcase the versatility and power of WordPress.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Days 3 &amp; 4: Main Conference Days</strong>:<br />The main conference days promise a diverse range of speakers and talks, each offering excellent quality and insightful content. This year introduces a networking hour at the end of the day on Thursday in the sponsor hall, providing a dedicated time for attendees to connect with others, including sponsors, speakers, and fellow participants, fostering relationships.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sponsorship and Community</strong>: Bernard Meyer shares his perspective on the immense value of sponsoring WordCamp US and the community it fosters. Unlike other transactional conferences, WordCampUS allows sponsors and attendees to connect on a personal level, building relationships that go beyond mere business interactions. This sense of community and shared passion is what makes WordCampUS special.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>WordCamp US Social</strong>: The event will conclude with a social gathering at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry (OMSI) on the evening of Friday, September 20th. Attendees will have the opportunity to explore the museum, including a submarine tour and planetarium programming. The social is included with the WordCampUS ticket, and attendees are reminded to bring their badges for admission. Guests can also join by purchasing a ticket, making it a perfect opportunity to relax and connect with others.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Links</h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://us.wordcamp.org/2024/tickets/\">Get your ticket to WordCampUS</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://us.wordcamp.org/2024/volunteering-at-wordcamp-us-2024/\">Sign up as a volunteer</a></strong></li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong><a href=\"https://us.wordcamp.org/2024/call-for-sponsors/\">Sponsor WordCampUS</a></strong></li>\n</ul>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Mon, 05 Aug 2024 13:00:00 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:5:\"BobWP\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:27;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:90:\"Gutenberg Times: Gutenberg Changelog #105 – Gutenberg 18.9, Block Themes and WooCommerce\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:53:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?post_type=podcast&p=29640\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:103:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-105-gutenberg-18-9-block-themes-and-woocommerce/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:48808:\"<p>Ellen Bauer and Birgit Pauli-Haack discuss Gutenberg 18.9, Block Themes, WooCommerce and more.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-105-gutenberg-18-9-block-themes-and-woocommerce/#shownotes\">Show Notes</a> / <a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-105-gutenberg-18-9-block-themes-and-woocommerce/#transcript\">Transcript</a></p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Editor:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandy-reed/\">Sandy Reed</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Logo:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://markuraine.com/\">Mark Uraine</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Production:&nbsp;<a href=\"https://icodeforapurpose.com\">Birgit Pauli-Haack</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-larger-font-size\" id=\"shownotes\"><strong>Show Notes</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Special Guest: Ellen Bauer </h2>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://x.com/ellenbauer\">On X (former Twitter) @ellenbauer</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://www.elmastudio.de/en/\">ElmaStudio</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://join.slack.com/t/woocommercecommunity/shared_invite/zt-2noqfhew6-7C9cJTwF8EnbfAlNEhv78g\">Join WooCommerce Community Slack</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://woocommerce.com/posts/woocommerce-in-2024-roadmap-update/\">WooCommerce in 2024 and beyond: Roadmap update</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Learn.WordPress</h2>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Video playlist <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1pJFUVKQ7EQuGoWcrS2ElPx3A_zrCsM5\">Intermediate Theme Developer</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Course: <a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/intermediate-theme-developer/\">Intermediate Theme Developer</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Course: <a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/beginner-wordpress-developer/\">Beginner WordPress Developer</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Upcoming Events</h2>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>August 13&nbsp;<a href=\"https://www.meetup.com/learn-wordpress-online-workshops/events/302520686/\">Developer Hours: Hello, Blocks! – An Introduction to Block Development</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>August 15: <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/09/hallway-hangout-lets-chat-about-whats-next-in-gutenberg-2/\">Hallway Hangout: Let’s chat about what’s next in Gutenberg (August 2024)</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>August 27: <a href=\"https://www.meetup.com/learn-wordpress-online-workshops/events/302512124/\">Developer Hours: Building WordPress themes with the Create Block Theme plugin</a><br /></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Developer Blog</h2>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/07/30/building-a-card-layout-with-a-hover-reveal-effect/\">Building a card layout with a “hover reveal” effect</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/07/22/mixing-and-matching-styles-colors-and-typography-in-wordpress-6-6/\">Mixing and matching styles, colors, and typography in WordPress 6.6</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Gutenberg 18.9 </h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/31/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-9-31-july/\">What’s new in Gutenberg 18.9? (31 July)</a></p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What’s in active development or discussed</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/pull/61577\">&nbsp;Add plugin template registration API #61577</a></p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-large-font-size\">Stay in Touch</p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group\"><div class=\"wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-flow wp-block-group-is-layout-flow\">\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Did you like this episode? <a href=\"https://lovethepodcast.com/gutenbergchangelog\"><strong>Please write us a review </strong></a></li>\n\n\n\n<li>Ping us on X (formerly known as Twitter) or send DMs with questions. <a href=\"https://twitter.com/gutenbergtimes\">@gutenbergtimes </a>and <a href=\"https://twitter.com/bph\">@bph</a>.</li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>If you have questions or suggestions, or news you want us to include, send them to <a href=\"mailto:changelog@gutenbergtimes.com\">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a>. </em></li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>Please write us a review on iTunes! <a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/itunes/\">(Click here to learn how)</a></em></li>\n</ul>\n</div></div>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-large-font-size\" id=\"transcript\"><strong>Transcript</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: Well, hello and welcome to our 105th episode of the Gutenberg Changelog podcast. In today&#8217;s episode, we will talk about Gutenberg 18.9, a little bit of block themes, WooCommerce, and more. I&#8217;m your host, Birgit Pauli-Haack, curator at the Gutenberg Times and a full-time core contributor for the WordPress Open Source project sponsored by Automattic.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>My special guest today is the wonderful Ellen Bauer, early adopter of blocks and block themes with themes from ElmaStudio, from New Zealand, temporarily from Bangkok, Thailand. Thank you so much for joining me today. How are you, Ellen?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer: </em>Thank you very much. I&#8217;m happy to be here. Yes, I&#8217;m in Bangkok right now, so I&#8217;m very good. Thank you. How are you, Birgit?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> I&#8217;m good. I&#8217;m good. Munich&#8217;s getting really summer temperatures, so we&#8217;re 33 degrees already early in the morning. Well, not that early, but it&#8217;s really hot. And with apartments without air conditioning, we have fans.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Oh, that is great. I think that&#8217;s even hotter than Bangkok right now because here it&#8217;s the rainy season, so it&#8217;s coolish for Bangkok terms, maybe 29 or 30 degrees.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, it&#8217;s similar.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Quite nice.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: It&#8217;s probably humid too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> It is. It is, yeah. But compared to two months ago, it&#8217;s actually really nice. So yeah, we are enjoying it. Another two weeks, then we will be back in New Zealand. Winter in New Zealand. So a change is coming up.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, you need some warm clothes there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Yeah, I already ordered fleece sweaters. That will work.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> So since we last talked, and it&#8217;s probably&#8230; Well, you and I met at WordCamp Europe, but since you were last on the Changelog, your responsibilities have changed quite a bit in the last few weeks. So what are you working on right now?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Yeah, that is true. Changed a lot. So just after WordCamp Europe in Turin, I started as a product manager for WooCommerce, with Automattic now, which is very exciting and it&#8217;s a great responsibility and opportunity for me that I&#8217;m very excited about.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And everyone has been welcoming me so nicely and I&#8217;m still in the onboarding phase and it&#8217;s really, really fun at the moment and lots to do and I have lots of ideas too. My main responsibility is trying to increase block theme adoption for WooCommerce and there&#8217;s a lot to do still. So lots of work and lots of fun working on that. I&#8217;m really, really grateful.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Well, just from my personal opinion, I think I couldn&#8217;t have chosen a better person to do all that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Thank you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> I&#8217;m really happy that you&#8217;re my coworker and that you&#8217;re working on the WooCommerce things. So things are moving in the WordPress space. There are quite a few things happening and you can all learn about these other things on the other podcasts like Do the Woo, I don&#8217;t know. If you haven&#8217;t tuned into those podcasts, there are about 12 different shows with, I think, 20 different hosts, so that&#8217;s definitely something to look about, dear listeners.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And there&#8217;s also a WP Minute with Matt Medeiros. He has some great shows and commentary on the news in WordPress and here we stick to Gutenberg and what&#8217;s around blocks development and block themes.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Announcements</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>So the first announcement today is the videos for the Intermediate Theme Developer course on the Learning pathways on YouTube.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So the training team has been working on learning pathways for beginner, intermediate, and advanced and then build courses around it. So you could start with the beginner developer course and then go to the intermediate theme developer and then to the advanced. And all those courses or lessons in those courses are actually self-contained, so you could just pick and choose which one you want to learn about.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But the intermediate theme developer course, there are 32 videos and it&#8217;s covering everything from global styles and theme JSON template, template parts, patterns, style variations, block styles, you name it, what&#8217;s in block themes, but the course is also built around&#8230; It covers all also classic themes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So for instance, the Loop or how to use the theme JSON in classic themes. So if you need some refresher on certain concepts, you definitely can watch them individually or use the course on <a href=\"http://learn.wordpress.org\">learn.wordpress.org</a> to get it in sequence. I also will share the link to the beginner WordPress developer course, which has been published also a couple of weeks ago. Just want to remind you that that is there. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer</em>: We also have upcoming developer hours and I think that&#8217;s a really exciting topic for block developers on August 13, 3:00 PM UTC with the title Developer Hours, Hello Blocks and Introduction to Block Development. I think that&#8217;s a super interesting topic for everyone who hasn&#8217;t built blocks or just wants to get a refresher or update on it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So blocks are used now with almost all WordPress projects and core blocks cover quite a wide range of things that you can do with them. You also have a lot of third-party block libraries available, but sometimes it&#8217;s just not enough and you need to build your own blog. I&#8217;ve been there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, you definitely have been there, yes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer</em>: It&#8217;s really a lesson learned to try to build your own block and it&#8217;s actually way easier, I felt, for most cases, for most custom blocks compared to what I initially thought. And so we&#8217;ve come up a long way and you can learn in this developer hours how to build your own custom block from scratch, which is really cool. So there&#8217;s a meet up link for that in the show notes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: Yeah, just a couple of weeks ago, there was the developer hours. Do you really need a custom block? What are the alternatives to building custom blocks? So you decide it. Block styles are not enough. Block variations are not enough. Patterns with sync patterns, all rights are not enough. You need your own custom block because the core block doesn&#8217;t give you enough features or anything, but then you need to start from scratch. And if you haven&#8217;t started yet, this definitely gets you an in into the topic and the space.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So two days later, there will be a hallway hangout with Anne McCarthy and it&#8217;s about let&#8217;s chat about what&#8217;s next in Gutenberg. With WordPress 6.6 being out, the teams are already working feverishly on what they want to put into WordPress 6.7 and Anne McCarthy wrote about this one Hangout seeks to be another snapshot of what&#8217;s being worked on Gutenberg plugin to provide a broader awareness to more WordPress contributors and get feedback.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The hope is to come together early to talk about different features, flush out concerns sooner, and help more folks get involved and find ways to work better together. I know that there are quite a few things in the roadmap for 6.7. The official roadmap hasn&#8217;t been published yet, but watch out. I think after that hallway hangout, we will find something on the make blog. Are you excited about 6.7?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Yes, and I will definitely try to make that hallway hangout. I think I will be just, I think the first time back in New Zealand, so I hope I&#8217;m not too jet-lagged.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But I think that&#8217;s really exciting, and I appreciate Anne&#8217;s work of giving us an overview of things that are happening with her source of truth for the releases, they&#8217;re just amazing and so helpful for everyone who is busy and can&#8217;t catch up with everything happening because that&#8217;s happening so much.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think I joined the last hallway hangout on what gave us a glimpse into the future and also being able to be shaping that future. So I hope lots of people can join.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, I forgot to tell anybody when it&#8217;s going to happen. It&#8217;s going to be August 15th at 15:00 UTC, 3:00 PM UTC and I also share the announcement for that hangout in the show notes because it also lists what parts of the content of it, and it&#8217;s about data views of course, and it&#8217;s about sync patterns, it&#8217;s about canonical block examples.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>The discussion hasn&#8217;t ended yet what a canonical plugin will be, but people are working on additional blocks for core, then gallery block grid layout, and then the Zoom out view definitely. And together with the advanced content only editing, those will be topics of that hangout and see the first iterations or discussions or heated discussions about it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Yeah, I think also for WooCommerce, the concept of canonical blocks and having some of them, maybe for Woo blocks as well is really interesting and could help just filling some gaps that are there currently for block theme builders and just everyone working with blocks trying to build e-commerce sites. So yeah, that&#8217;s really exciting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So there&#8217;s one more announcement, which another developer hour and with the title, Building WordPress Themes With Create Block Theme Plugin, the create block theme plugin, which I think is so exciting and it&#8217;s happening on August 27 at 3:00 PM UTC and with Tammie Lister and you, Birgit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Yes, I really love the create block theme plugin and I get lots of questions from our team users or agency users, how they can use it to maybe create child themes or create new themes that are block themes easily. So I think that&#8217;s really exciting for small site builders and agencies to work with that plugin and learn about it more in the developer hour.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So the topics that you two will cover, and it sounds like a lovely learning session, is you will cover how to create a theme with a plugin from scratch, how to clone an existing block theme or create a child theme. That&#8217;s one of the questions I think I have a lot from people who have been working more with classic themes is do I even need a child theme? How do I create one from a block theme? How does it all work?</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think it&#8217;s still a new concept for many people, so that will be super useful. Then how to customize your theme in the site editor is also very good, I feel, because there&#8217;s still some confusion of what the site editor is actually doing, how to use it. So I think that will be so helpful for people, how media is used in templates and how you can manage media, how the plugin helps make themes, translation ready, that&#8217;s also one of the questions I have from people. That is all really, really helpful content that you will cover in that developer hour.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, yeah, the create block theme bridges the gap. We have three different design tools. One is coming through theme JSON, first is core and then there is the theme JSON from the theme, and then there are user changes in the site editor and they all come together on the site through the black box, I call the site the style engine. But the user changes, they all end up in the database.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And for a theme developer, if you want to grade the theme that you reuse someplace else, you need to get that out of the database into your theme JSON and that&#8217;s what this create block theme plugin is actually doing and then a lot of things around it. So you can export whatever you do in the site editor or your client is doing in the site editor, you can all then harvest that and put it back into the theme to maybe use on other sites or put it into version control or just have it on a test site or something like that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So create block theme. So August 27th, 3:00 PM UTC, 15:00 UTC is definitely a place if you&#8217;re interested in that particular topic.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Community Contributions</h3>\n\n\n\n<p>I wanted to also point our listeners, dear listeners to our developer blog because we have two new posts that might be interesting to you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Damon Cook, he&#8217;s a developer relations manager or developer relations person from WP Engine. He published on the developer block building a card layout with a hover reveal effect, meaning in the short tutorial you learn how to add a block style to a core block. That&#8217;s always a great skill to have and then add additional CSS for animation. And it&#8217;s even interesting for content creators, you learn how to create a grid block with card style cover block.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I just reviewed it and tested the code and it&#8217;s a real neat example on what is possible with the block editor. Even if the core doesn&#8217;t provide you within all the features like the animation, you could still add it in CSS in a block style. And similar to that is Justin Tadlock&#8217;s new post on the developer block, it&#8217;s mixing and matching styles, colors, and typography in WordPress 6.6, and he teaches us how to create custom color and topography only global style variations now with the new version.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So universe is expanding exponentially with all the style variations and where you can do section styles and then just offer different variations for certain sections. It&#8217;s really neat. There was also a hallway hangout where we kind of discussed that all previously, so I will share that link as well in the show notes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer</em>: Yeah, I love just the&#8230; It&#8217;s an easy concept with the style variations and styles really get a lift different look on the front end. I really love it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Well, it&#8217;s not only on the front end, you also get it into the editor if you do it right. It puts it into the editor. So I did some basic, basic testings and I was able to just put in the JSON notation. You can just put a style variation in the styles&#8217; directory on your theme and it pulls it automatically in. You don&#8217;t have to worry about PHP or registering your CSS separately from editors.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It all comes in right away and it also uses those things in front end as well as in block editor and it&#8217;s just fabulous. There is some nice magic going on. I haven&#8217;t finished my post yet, but I&#8217;m going to write on the Gutenberg times about it, how to easy put a frame around your images and all that or different kind of frames or shadows and all that, how to just add it to a style and then grab it in the theme or WordPress grabs it from your styles&#8217; directory in the theme, so it&#8217;s really magic. All right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> That is cool.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> That&#8217;s really cool.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What’s Released &#8211; Gutenberg 18.9</h3>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> So yeah, let&#8217;s talk about the Gutenberg release 18.9. That&#8217;s really cool that it&#8217;s like 18 releases. Really, really great. So with this release, there were 245 PRs merged by 59 contributors and the release contains 84 enhancements and 72 bug fixes. That&#8217;s a lot of work. Really, really beautiful to see that coming together.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, don&#8217;t worry, we are not talking about every single one of them. Otherwise, we would be here another two and a half hours or three, but no.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> We&#8217;re wrapping it together.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, we&#8217;re wrapping it together. So the biggest changes are in the block library. That was more a quality of life changes that they added examples to the preview and previews to the blocks. There were a few blocks where you have them and then there are quite a few blocks where you don&#8217;t have them.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And they started to work in 18.8 And then 18.9 They continue it and now there are examples for the post author block, the post date block, we don&#8217;t call them that anymore. It&#8217;s the author block, the date block, the featured image block and the terms block when you have them in the insert. In code, they still have the prefix of post, but that prefix went away. But that&#8217;s definitely a quality of life change. So it makes the mystery, takes the mystery out of it. What is this kind of block? What does it do?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> It&#8217;s very helpful. Then the query loop block got enhancements too. So the post list variation was removed, the convert, the post content type setting to a toggle group control. If there were a few items, then query loop changed the default query loop variations and set query loop to have the inherent value by default. Then I think the SoundCloud icon got updated in the social links block. Oh, that&#8217;s another block. No worries. Not in the query loop block anymore, but it also got an update.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, the icon was actually updated. On the query loop there, they have the inherent value by default is something that, I don&#8217;t know, it was a 50/50 chance that people get confused about it, what it does and it was not by default. Switched on so when you do the categories or so, it takes the inherent value from the query parameters, from the link where it came from, and sometimes that people get confused when they built their own query loops on pages.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> It actually confused me quite a lot in the beginning. I remember that and I never quite knew should I have it toggled on or off and I always had to test it out. I remember that got me always.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, and now you get confused the other way because they changed it around.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> I feel. Yeah, probably. I always had to test it. I was like, why is it not working how I wanted it to work?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> It wasn&#8217;t intuitive and I&#8217;m not sure if it&#8217;s more intuitive now, but we will find out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> It&#8217;s true.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> So test it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> I&#8217;ll test it again too. I haven&#8217;t tested it</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>And dear listeners, everything here is for testing. Test it out and chime in. And I&#8217;m just going to do a little side note here. On the WordPress Slack there is an outreach channel where we can discuss those confusing things. So if you are not quite sure how it&#8217;s supposed to work, come into the channel, discuss it with us.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Well, there are quite a few theme developers in there and we have about 800 people in the channel. Not all of them, most of them are lookers of course, like in any community. But there&#8217;s always somebody there who can help out and it&#8217;s quite a nice bunch and we have all been there that we tried to figure things out and needed help figuring it out. So it was coming into the outreach channel.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So as for the enhancement, there&#8217;s enhancements on the components, quite a few, but I wanted to just point out the tabs component is getting quite some attention now because it&#8217;s one of the components that you could add to, that is needed for the data views or for the admin as well as for content creators. So they&#8217;re building that component so you can add into your custom blocks if there&#8217;s a need for that.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And it also is used actually in the sidebar when you have the settings and the styles tabs in the sidebar from a block that&#8217;s also using the tabs component and there are quite a few changes there. So check them out.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> And for the design tools, I think border blocks support got added to quite a few blocks. The term description block, the media text block, gallery block, border block support, the social links, paragraph quote and heading got border support or is it inherited from outer blocks? I&#8217;m not a hundred percent sure, maybe you can help me out there, Birgit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> No, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s inherited. It&#8217;s block intern.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer</em>: Just edit directly.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: Directly. So if you put a paragraph in your canvas, you get in the style section, you get the border controls like radius and color and thickness and style and there was for WordPress 6.6, I published a post with the roster of which design tools are available for which block because there are quite a few holes.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> I&#8217;m surprised that it isn&#8217;t. I thought that heading and things had the border control already. It&#8217;s such a useful little support that can be almost on every call block, I feel.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haac</em>k: Right. But it needs to have a few iterations before it gets rolled out to all the blocks to make sure that it&#8217;s actually feasible and workable. And until then, it was only on the group block and on the pull quote and on the columns I think and images. So there were quite a few that had it and now they&#8217;re actually going through the list on Adam and whichever block can actually be using it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> So there are quite a few that it gets added to, which I think is useful. I remember when I built my own blocks, I always used to try to add it to the blocks because they&#8217;re just a useful little snippet and can be used in creative ways and be helpful at some point.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think sometimes I use just the bottom border to create a line below something or above something. So yeah, you can be quite creative with to use. I&#8217;m not sure if it&#8217;s supposed to be used that way, maybe I&#8217;m getting people into wrong&#8230; Giving them wrong ideas.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> No, the tools are there to just have a border on the bottom of things or yeah, I sometimes used it not with the block editor, but when I was building sites and doing some CSS there, I was only just using the right side at the bottom to mimic a drop shadow without having to use the drop shadow and it&#8217;s all there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You can have a radius there, you can have a border color changes thickness also the different types. So they&#8217;re solid, their started line and all that. That&#8217;s all available now to all those blocks. And one of them is actually also the buttons block.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So you can have border now, you always could have a border around the single button but not around the whole button set if you have two or three or more buttons in a row. So that is really cool too. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> What else do we have in here? I think an update on data views, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Well there&#8217;s more support coming on. So the latest comment got color support and then the buttons got padding border and color and the image got margin support that I was surprised that it didn&#8217;t have it, but it obviously didn&#8217;t have it before. And then the code book also got spacing support. So I have to rebuild the blog post that I did on the make blog about the roster and which design tools are supported by which block for the next version definitely as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So data views, there is now a reordering of the columns possible, so when you see your pages in a list, you can change the order of the columns and possibly also switch it off. It also now has support for the filters, you can combine fields to filter things. And it also now gives you an updated front page badge in your pages where the page that is the front page is going to be identified differently. So with a nice icon, so that&#8217;s the data views. Data views are just the admin pages for themes, for templates, pages and patterns in the site editor.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Yeah, I really love that update. I think it just brings this modern feel into WordPress. I think we have been looking at the tables for too long.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Right, right. And I&#8217;m glad that they&#8217;re doing it for the site editor separately from the WP admin just so it works out nicely, but it actually is another point of friction for new users where they see the, it&#8217;s not a consistent admin thing, it of gives a little bit of a confusion what is in which place, where do I go from things.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>We know that from WordPress.com and they had Calypso, but that&#8217;s a temporary thing, of course. And I know that some of the contributors already working on getting the list of posts into the data and the new data views, but it needs to be done very carefully because there are quite a few extensibility features beforehand and the backwards compatibility with plugins and all, because for 10 years pretty much, plugins were the ones who actually fixed some of the old UI in WordPress and every plugin did it a different way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So we need to make sure that all the contributors all want to make sure that all this backwards compatibility is not going to blow up some pages there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Very exciting work, I feel. So another update has been to the locking of blocks, I think UI update. So they tweaked the&#8230; I think just edit some spacing and change the button size of the block logging modal. So I think it just has a little bit more spacing and is easier to read and update. That was also in the latest release.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yes. Sometimes these little tweaks actually help a lot, contributing to the consistency and to take out the mystery and make the user brain feel comfortable where they are and not get confused just because.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Yeah, definitely so much. Small changes can make a big difference. It&#8217;s really amazing too to see that. And I feel like think mainly it&#8217;s the spacing added and the button size. It does look a little bit cleaner and better to understand for our brains. So I think that&#8217;s a good thing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> And then there&#8217;s one new API that, well it&#8217;s not new, but the block bindings API received some unification from get value and get values on the functions there that you have get value, set value, set values and get values, that&#8217;s certainly for developers.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Interesting to make sure that your block binding still work with this and have some additional, there&#8217;s no additional features in there. I think just that it&#8217;s a developer experience enhancement, so it makes it a little bit easier to work with the block binding.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> All right. So I think then we move on to experiments or did I skip something? I&#8217;m just wondering.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> No, I don&#8217;t think so.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Experiments</h3>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> There&#8217;s a long list of&#8230; So yeah, in the experiments I think it&#8217;s all about the grid. Am I right? And you maybe, Birgit, need to help me out a little bit here getting the listeners up to date because I haven&#8217;t had the chance to properly test it myself. I will do that definitely. But I think it&#8217;s just fine-tuning and some things have been disabled. So maybe help me out, Birgit.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, I do. So it&#8217;s just one of the experiments that is there is the interactive grid layout and there have been quite a few changes there or updates that we want to point out. One is the block movers, the handles have changed and it&#8217;s probably easier to move now blocks from one grid cell to the other, which you probably want to do anyway.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then also adding a block to the grid block was, I tested it and it confused me a bit and I was not alone was that I would have hoped that the plus sign for the inserter would be in the grid cell, but it was on the outside of the grid block and it wouldn&#8217;t help. It was tricky to get a new block into a full grid block. So that has changed. You definitely need to switch on the experiments though to figure that out.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> So it&#8217;s just if you have, I think under Gutenberg experiments, and I think this is grid interactivity is the name that you have to switch on, right?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, exactly, exactly. And then the other part is that there&#8217;s a visualizer popover and they also confuse people how to use it and they hide it now under the canvas, so it&#8217;s hidden away. So for the manual grids, they disable some of the inserter in between inserters and they also don&#8217;t display the default appender for the manual grid, but it&#8217;s really a work in progress and it definitely needs some more testing.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> It is, and it&#8217;s quite complicated to make it very user-friendly, but a great tool to have. So that&#8217;s really exciting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, it is. Absolutely.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Working with grids, finally. I remember that was one of the first more complex blocks that I will build was I want to have grid layout and actually some of the things that are now in core look quite similar to what I have done, which is cool to see that it&#8217;s very different, of course, easier to use in complex, but the core with rows and how you can snap them into multiple columns, it&#8217;s quite similar, which is cool. And you guys come into core, I&#8217;m so happy about it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, I like the core span and rose span for each cell that you can move it around. It&#8217;s really interesting. You can get some nice layouts that are called bento layouts, like the bento boxes from Japanese cuisines. You can build your own website as a bento box. That&#8217;s really cool. Or if you so prefer, you can actually build a Pied Mondrian design with just squares and rectangles, which I like.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Yeah, grid changes the layout options so much. I love it. It&#8217;s incredible. It&#8217;s crazy that we didn&#8217;t have it for such a long time and we had to just stack everything below each other in a long, one column thing. It&#8217;s so much more creative and I think it gives just a lot of flexibility to layout building for users. So it&#8217;s really exciting to have that as a block.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Definitely. It was in WordPress core since 6.2 for CSS or for theme builders, for developers, but there wasn&#8217;t any interface for that. And I&#8217;m really happy that we now have an interface, but that is also where the complication comes in because some of the concepts are really hard for somebody who doesn&#8217;t have any knowledge about how grid layout is supposed to work, it&#8217;s really hard to convey the concepts with the interface.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I&#8217;m glad they&#8217;re taking it slow, but I&#8217;m also glad that they&#8217;re taking it one step at a time and get people into how to use that. They&#8217;re quite great theme developers that show people what they can do with it and I mentioned before, Damon Cook&#8217;s article for the developer blog has some nice instructions on how to create a card layout with the grid block and with the stack block and combining all those great tools. It&#8217;s really interesting what can happen there. All right.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Yeah, it changes a lot. I also like that we work slowly on it because it&#8217;s really complex and like you said, could confuse users because it&#8217;s quite hard to understand.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Documentation</h3>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> So there were quite a few updates to the documentation and I almost like to call them out because one of the big hurdles for developers getting into block development and block themes is the leaky documentation that not everything is documented well enough.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so the contributors updated the documentation for the interactivity API on how to install and import the interactivity API to a block. And then also the alpine versus preact extra explanations. Those are libraries on which the interactivity API is based on.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So having some of that explanation in the documentation probably dissolved some of the mystery as well. And then the GetContext function received an update on the usage examples in conjunction with the namespace argument. And then there were a few other updates as well. All right. What else is in there? Was that it? That was it for the Gutenberg.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> I think that was it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Gutenberg 18.9 of course there were, I think we talked about maybe 45 of the 245 PRs that landed in there. Definitely consult the Changelog from the release post that that came out. And I will share in the show notes when this podcast is published.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What’s in Active Development and Discusssed<strong>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</strong></h3>\n\n\n\n<p>So we come to the section what&#8217;s in active development or discussed, and I wanted to point out all the plugin developers around you or around me here amongst the listeners to a PR that&#8217;s 61577 on the Gutenberg report that is the first iteration on a plugin template registration API for plugins. It has been really hard for plugins to, say you offer a custom post type for books or recipes or something like that, how can add a template for the block that goes into the site editor.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>That was a big hurdle there. With a new PR, there will be new functions and new class. So there will be a WP_register_template function and there will be a WP_block_templates registry class. And they&#8217;re all based on register block type, but they actually go into the template.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And when you follow the PR, you also see some code examples that you can use first for testing and also for learning about this API and how it&#8217;s going to work. Right now it&#8217;s not yet merged, but it&#8217;s getting ready to be merged and I hope it&#8217;s going to be in 19.0, latest 19.1. But if you want to test it yourself, you need to get through some hoops there. You would need to fork Gutenberg, then check out the branch for the PR run NPM install. So we get all the NPM updates right there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And then you can follow those testing instructions if you add the plug in to a local or a local WP site install. So you can link that. But yeah, it&#8217;s definitely for developers, your content creators and no code site builders, need to shut your ears a bit. It&#8217;s going to be a little technical there, but I just wanted to point that out because it would be really helpful to have early tests in there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>You can also wait until it&#8217;s merged and then grab either the release or grab the Gutenberg Nightly to test it and use those examples that are in the PR for your testing. I&#8217;m sure there will be an announcement for call for testing in the outreach channel and probably on the make blog as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>But this is the first time you hear about it. And then I&#8217;m wondering when the next time of the Gutenberg Changelog will be. And Ellen, you&#8217;re probably happy to know that the developer who contributes to Core is actually coming from WooCommerce who had some trouble implementing block templates for a plugin or major plugin.</p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">WooCommerce</h3>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Yeah, that&#8217;s really cool to see now that I see a lot of the behind the scenes things happening that&#8217;s really an effort to contribute work across all these multiple instances at Automatic. I really love to see that and I think there&#8217;s an effort to do more of it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So that&#8217;s really exciting to see that WooCommerce could contribute something to Core and I would also hope that with the block themes that we&#8230; Or the adoption of block themes to push that I will be able to do that to contribute to core with things we feel needed as in WooCommerce. I think there&#8217;s a lot to do there, which is exciting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, you plan, you are the trailblazer there for adoption of block themes on the extension sites. So that&#8217;s really cool.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer</em>: Yeah. Interesting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: Yeah, we&#8217;re coming to the end of our show. This was a little shorter than usual. Don&#8217;t fear. We&#8217;ll come back end of August.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer</em>: With more.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> With more and covering two plugin releases, 19.0, 19.1. We will record a show in the last week of August because I will go on vacation and it&#8217;s a two-week vacation. And then with this week and the next week, jumbling, it&#8217;s going to be a four-week hiatus for the podcast as well as for the weekend edition.&nbsp;</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer: </em>Well-deserved rest.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Absolutely.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer: </em>It&#8217;s quite active. It sounds like an active holiday, so maybe not rest, but just a change of scenery is always good to have.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Well, it&#8217;s a change of scenery, but we don&#8217;t have a whole lot of daily activities. We are going to British Columbia and it&#8217;s all about landscape, it&#8217;s about water, it&#8217;s about boating, and it&#8217;s about just sitting there.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Outdoors.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, outdoors and do some hikes. Yeah.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer</em>: Beautiful.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Indeed. So Ellen, thank you so much for joining us again here.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Thank you for having me.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>Yeah, if people want to connect with you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer</em>: I remember the last one I did was also a two version of it. I was like, oh my goodness, this is a lot. So I hope I did a little better this time. I hope you want to have me back at some point.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> You can&#8217;t do badly. I know you Ellen, you&#8217;re one of the well-prepared co-hosts here on the show, so don&#8217;t you worry about you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> We&#8217;ll see if you invite me back at some point.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack: </em>I can put it on a calendar, but I don&#8217;t want to scare you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> No, I&#8217;d love to, actually. It&#8217;s really helpful for me to stay up to date with things. I love that. Really good for me too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>Birgit Pauli-Haack: All right, so if people want to connect with you and in your new role, where would they reach you? Are you on the WooCommerce Slack or?</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> I&#8217;m on the WooCommerce community Slack. I am on the WordPress Slack and on Twitter, quite active. Instagram, YouTube, you can find me anywhere if you Google Ellen Bauer. So yeah, I&#8217;m around and I love to connect. I think one of the things I really feel is important and that I can contribute to help WooCommerce too, is that I really want to be available to everyone building block themes for e-commerce.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>And really one of the third things is that I want to collect the feedback and the pain points. And I know because I&#8217;ve built a WooCommerce block theme myself that there are a lot of pain points still. There&#8217;s a lot of improvements have made and it&#8217;s just very complicated work. So we have to be patient and we have to just speak up and engage and just work together on it.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>It&#8217;s a really big, big topic to make this work. So I&#8217;m around. And one of the things I&#8217;m also planning, I haven&#8217;t announced it yet, but I will within the next one or two weeks, is that I also plan, because I am so inspired by Anne&#8217;s work doing the hallway hangouts and was so good for me to have this little community to voice the issues just in a casual way.</p>\n\n\n\n<p>So I want to create a little community hangout, Zoom hangout around WooBlock themes. So I think that will be good to get out there and then people can join in and I will have different topics and just have it very casually. So I will announce that very soon just everywhere I can so people can get aware of it. So here I am saying it to you.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> You heard it here first, dear listeners.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Actually, it&#8217;s the first time because I&#8217;m still getting on board and there&#8217;s lots to do. But I think that is important to get established early, like a monthly little hangout to be available because that&#8217;s one of the main goals I have is just to be available for people who try to build with WooCommerce and just really, really important to hear everyone out and just be available.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> That&#8217;s terrific.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> So just ping me with any questions you have.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah, that&#8217;s terrific. I&#8217;m glad that you&#8217;re picking up on that. There&#8217;s also a roadmap rollout post from Beau Levens, I think, where WooCommerce is going.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer: </em>That&#8217;s very exciting.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> And I will also share the link to the WooCommerce community Slack in the show notes. And well, if you&#8217;re announcing this out and the next weekend edition comes out, it&#8217;s going to be in there. But that will come out at the end of August as well.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> And I think the WooCommerce developer blog really is way more exciting now. They do great work there too.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack:</em> Yeah. Yeah. The developer relations, Stephanie Pai. Natalie, I think is her name.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer: </em>Jacqueline.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: Oh, Jacqueline. Yeah. Why do I think Natalie? There must be somebody&#8230; Jacqueline, yeah. They really connected with the community through&#8230; I saw it at WordCamp Europe when they connected with the community and talked with a few plugin developers and also in WordCamp, Asia. All right, before we end…</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Wrap it up.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: Wrap it up.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Not yet. I want to get you on vacation.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: As always, the show notes will be published on GutenbergTimes.com/podcast and this is number 105. And if you have questions or suggestions or news you want us to include, send them to <a href=\"mailto:Changelog@GutenbergTimes.com\">Changelog@GutenbergTimes.com</a>, that&#8217;s <a href=\"mailto:Changelog@GutenbergTimes.com\">Changelog@GutenbergTimes.com</a>, or just ping me on the WP Slack or on Twitter DM me wherever you find me. That&#8217;s it. Thanks for listening. Goodbye from me and thanks again to Ellen Bauer, and you have a wonderful summer everybody.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Ellen Bauer:</em> Thank you. Bye. Thanks for listening, everyone.</p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Birgit Pauli-Haack</em>: Bye.</p>\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:7:\"pubDate\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:31:\"Sun, 04 Aug 2024 06:28:37 +0000\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}s:32:\"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/\";a:1:{s:7:\"creator\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:18:\"Birgit Pauli-Haack\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}}}}i:28;a:6:{s:4:\"data\";s:13:\"\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n	\n\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";s:5:\"child\";a:2:{s:0:\"\";a:5:{s:5:\"title\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:138:\"Gutenberg Times: Learn WordPress redesign, WooCommerce: the future is block-based, starter themes and a lot more   — Weekend Edition 301\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"guid\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:35:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?p=29455\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:4:\"link\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:140:\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/learn-wordpress-redesign-woocommerce-the-future-is-block-based-starter-themes-and-a-lot-more-weekend-edition-301/\";s:7:\"attribs\";a:0:{}s:8:\"xml_base\";s:0:\"\";s:17:\"xml_base_explicit\";b:0;s:8:\"xml_lang\";s:0:\"\";}}s:11:\"description\";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:\"data\";s:29782:\"<p>Hi there, </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Summer! We are now for the second year in Europe, and we are starting to appreciate the four seasons again. Florida only has two seasons, dry and wet.  We are also getting ready for our Summer vacation. For most of the time we will be unplugged from the Internet and the computers. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>The Weekend Edition resumes at the end of August! This edition should provide you with plenty of updates to until then. And for developers, be on the look-out for the monthly round up post on the WordPress Developer Blog: What&#8217;s new for Developers (August 2024) to come out August 10, 2024. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Be well, maybe you can take a vacation, too. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>Yours, ?<br /><em>Birgit</em></p>\n\n\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-group has-light-background-background-color has-background\"><div class=\"wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-flow wp-block-group-is-layout-flow\">\n<p><strong>Table of Contents</strong></p>\n\n\n\n<ol><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/weekend-edition-301/#0-word-press-release-information\">Developing Gutenberg and WordPress</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/weekend-edition-301/#upcoming-events\">Upcoming events</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/weekend-edition-301/#0-p\">Plugins, Themes, and Tools for #nocode site builders and owners</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/weekend-edition-301/#2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled\">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</a></li><li><a class=\"wp-block-table-of-contents__entry\" href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/weekend-edition-301/#3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press\">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor. </a></li></ol>\n</div></div>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"0-word-press-release-information\">Developing Gutenberg and WordPress</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>Reminder: <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/09/hallway-hangout-lets-chat-about-whats-next-in-gutenberg-2/\"><strong>Hallway Hangout: Let’s chat about what’s next in Gutenberg (August 2024)</strong></a> on <strong>August 15, 2024, at 15:00 UTC</strong>. <strong>Anne McCarthy</strong> wrote:  “This hallway hangout seeks to be another snapshot of what’s being worked on in the Gutenberg plugin to provide broader awareness to more WordPress contributors and get feedback. The hope is to come together early to talk about different features, flush out concerns sooner, help more folks get involved, and find ways to work better together. “</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>At the WordPress Meetup in London, <strong>JuanMa Garrido</strong> gave a lightning talk <strong><a href=\"https://www.wpldn.uk/2024/08/exploring-wordpress-6-6-key-developer-features-unveiled-by-juanma-garrido/\">Exploring WordPress 6.6: Key Developer Features Unveiled</a></strong>  and covered style variations, color, and typography presets, block pattern overrides, updated Theme.json, and unified SlotFill components. <strong>Dan Maby </strong>summarized it and wrote: &#8220;JuanMa’s session covers essential updates that make design implementation easier and more flexible. Let’s explore these exciting new features!&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Rich Tabor</strong> also published a <a href=\"https://rich.blog/wordpress-6-6/\"><strong>WordPress 6.6</strong> </a> post with short videos about each major features. It is so much easier to grasp the nature and the usefulness of an update or a new feature when you can see it in action. </p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Learn.WordPress redesign now live! </h3>\n\n\n\n<p>And if you find yourself wondering what you do without a weekend edition for the three weeks, go, and browse the <strong><a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org\">freshly released Learn.WordPress website</a>.</strong> It has some great courses for end users, on block development and theme building. The latest course is the <a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/intermediate-theme-developer/\"><strong>Intermediate Theme Developer</strong></a> course, with 32 lessons.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>In her blog post <strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/training/2024/08/02/meet-the-new-learn-wordpress/\">Meet the new Learn WordPress</a>,</strong> <strong>Kathrin Presner</strong> shared the details of the why and how of the efforts to get this redesign over the finish line. It&#8217;s also a great historical record of the before and after state of the site&#8217;s designs. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>In the the WordPress News article <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/news/2024/08/a-brand-new-way-to-learn-wordpress/\"><strong>A Brand-New Way to Learn WordPress</strong></a>, <strong>Lauren Stein</strong> included a short video and put the renewed training site into the overall context of the ongoing efforts for a finished redesign of the WordPress.org website. You&#8217;ll find links to all learning pathways courses, and the announcements of <strong>Walking Tours on August 6th at 14:00 UTC</strong> and <strong>August 8th, 2024 at 21:00 UTC</strong> with the educators Wes Theron and Jonathan Bossenger.</p>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"652\" height=\"441\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/learn-homepage-1536x1038-1.png?resize=652%2C441&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-29588\" />\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Wes Theron</strong>, interactive designer at Automattic, published his tutorial <a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/tutorial/exploring-wordpress-6-6/\"><strong>Exploring WordPress 6.6</strong></a>, walking the viewers to a &#8220;range of new features and enhancements designed to improve your website management experience. Discover the latest updates and see how they can benefit your site.&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jonathan Bossenger,</strong> developer educator on the WordPress training team, published a <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/training/2024/07/30/call-for-contributors-intermediate-plugin-developer-learning-pathway/\">Call for contributors: Intermediate Plugin Developer learning pathway</a>. Can you help with scriptwriting, voice recording, video editing, content creation and reviewing? There is lots to be done, and you can have a major impact on the project with your contribution. </p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Gutenberg 18.9</h3>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Hector Prieto</strong> released Gutenberg 18.9 and highlighted in the release post <a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/31/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-9-31-july/\"><strong>What’s new in Gutenberg 18.9? (31 July)</strong></a></p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/31/#data-views-get-more-flexible\">Data Views get more flexible</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/31/#consolidating-design-tools-across-blocks\">Consolidating design tools across blocks</a></li>\n\n\n\n<li><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/31/#improved-usability-in-editing-and-applying-font-size-presets\">Improved usability in editing and applying font size presets</a></li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/31/whats-new-in-gutenberg-18-9-31-july/\"><img width=\"652\" height=\"376\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/image-3-1024x590-1.png?resize=652%2C376&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-29572\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p class=\"has-accent-color has-light-background-background-color has-text-color has-background has-link-color wp-elements-d93781e1cc752a3c931d2fecfcf49569\">?️ Latest episode: <a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-104-block-themes-gutenberg-18-8/\">Gutenberg Changelog #104 – Block Themes, Gutenberg 18.8, WordPress 6.6</a> with special guest Carolina Nymark</p>\n\n\n\n<p>For the latest <strong>Gutenberg Changelog episode (105)</strong>, I caught up with my friend, <strong>Ellen Bauer</strong>, now WooCommerce, former Elma Studio. We had a great chat about block themes, Gutenberg 18.9 and block design tools . The episode will drop into your favorite podcast app over the weekend. </p>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/\"><img width=\"652\" height=\"206\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Screenshot-2024-08-01-at-14.43.15.png?resize=652%2C206&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-29575\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Apropos Podcast: </strong>The photo of the week for me was <strong>Laura Adamonis </strong><a href=\"https://x.com/LauraAdamonis/status/1816624770399506920\">tweet </a>&#8220;@gutenbergtimes with @bph and @inyongski and meal prep go together on a rainy day. Great show. Pulled pork, yogurt, and carrots. &#8221; Huge thank you to Laura Adamonis for sharing her enthusiasm.</p>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://x.com/LauraAdamonis/status/1816624770399506920\"><img width=\"447\" height=\"335\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/LauraAdamonis-podcast-edited-1.jpg?resize=447%2C335&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-29582\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"upcoming-events\">Upcoming Developer Hours</h3>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>August 13 at 15:00 UTC</strong> <a href=\"https://www.meetup.com/learn-wordpress-online-workshops/events/302520686/\"><strong>Developer Hours: Hello, Blocks! – An Introduction to Block Development</strong></a> with JuanMa Garrido and Ryan Welcher</p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>August 27 at 15:00 UTC</strong> <strong><a href=\"https://www.meetup.com/learn-wordpress-online-workshops/events/302512124/\">Developer Hours: Building WordPress themes with the Create Block Theme plugin</a> </strong>with Tammie Lister and yours truly</p>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://www.meetup.com/learn-wordpress-online-workshops/events/302512124/\"><img width=\"600\" height=\"338\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/600_522612993.webp?resize=600%2C338&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-29523\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"0-p\">Plugins, Themes, and Tools for #nocode site builders and owners</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>This week, I rediscovered the plugin <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/enhanced-embed-block/\"><strong>Enhanced Embed Block for YouTube</strong></a> developed by <strong>Mark Root-Wiley</strong> and <strong>Cory Birdsong.</strong> It lets you add more limits to the embed block, for instance <code>rel=0</code> to just allow only videos from your channel in the suggestions. Another feature is that it can be set to load videos from nocookie.YouTube.com for enhanced privacy. They also emphasized that there is no plugin lock-in. Should you remove the plugin, it uses the core/embed block as a fallback.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>With his post, <a href=\"https://kinsta.com/blog/wordpress-full-site-editing/\"><strong>Mastering WordPress full site editing: a step-by-step tutorial</strong></a>, <strong>Jeremy Holcombe</strong> walks you through the various aspects of the site editor and aims to show you how FSE works and let you develop your own site designs, just like the pros. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>This week, <strong>Jamie Marsland</strong> <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/live/0-aHhfbk8Ac\"><strong>unlocked the power of Ollie Pro with Mike McAlister</strong></a> on his Livestream on YouTube. In this interactive session, you &#8220;discover why I love the Ollie Theme and learn all about Ollie Pro&#8221; Marsland wrote. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>As part of the new learning pathways, <strong>Cynthia Norman</strong>, WordPress theme developer from Ontario and member of the WordPress training team,  published the video: <a href=\"https://wordpress.tv/2024/07/26/converting-a-classic-theme-to-a-block-theme/\"><strong>Converting a classic theme to a block&nbsp;theme</strong></a> on WordPressTV. &#8220;With this lesson, you will: describe the various requirements of converting a classic theme, differentiate between a hybrid theme and a block theme and list the steps to take to convert a classic theme into a block theme.&#8221; She wrote. </p>\n\n\n\n<p>The video is also part of the <a href=\"https://learn.wordpress.org/course/intermediate-theme-developer/\">Intermediate Theme Developer</a> course. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://x.com/mahdiali_\"><strong>Mahdi Ali Khanusiya</strong></a>, Ilmosys, shared <a href=\"https://x.com/mahdiali_/status/1816064166630969570\">on X (former Twitter) </a>about the &#8220;refreshed design of the <a href=\"https://thepatternswp.com/\">PatternsWP</a> website! Built entirely with the WordPress block editor.&#8221; <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/patternswp/\">PatternWP </a> is a WordPress plugin with a huge library of patterns and full-page layouts. It helps designers and content creators to streamline their page building processes.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https://x.com/anja\"><strong>Anja Merret</strong></a> reported that <strong>MaxiBlocks</strong> introduced a free theme to work with the block editor or page builder. Together with the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/maxi-blocks/\">free block editor plugin</a> and the new free theme (in Beta), Maxi Blocks aims to offer an entire web design tool kit. It offers many patterns and icons to use on your site. Join the <a href=\"https://maxiblocks.com/free-maxiblocks-wordpress-theme/\">Beta team here</a> or wait for the theme to be available in the WordPress repository.</p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled\">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</h2>\n\n\n\n<p>This week, I teamed up with Vikas Singhal, InstaWP to hold a webinar: <a href=\"https://www.youtube.com/live/yc_cBtjDJxc\"><strong>WordPress Block Editor for Theme Developers and Designers</strong></a>. The recording is available on YouTube. The shared list of resources is <a href=\"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DJeHMlN4onIjNtf8C26SZz-NS1XcwJHuW_qkDjnXF88/edit#heading=h.ocbv6ztbssri\">available on Google Doc. </a></p>\n\n\n\n\n<div width=\"100%\" class=\"wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block\">\n<div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n\n</div>\n</div>\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Justin Tadlock</strong> also posted on the Developer Blog: <a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/07/22/mixing-and-matching-styles-colors-and-typography-in-wordpress-6-6/\"><strong>Mixing and matching styles, colors, and typography in WordPress 6.6</strong></a> &#8211; and teaches us how to create custom color and typography-only global style variations in WordPress 6.6.</p>\n\n\n\n<img width=\"652\" height=\"338\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/tt4-color-and-type-variations-1536x796-1.webp?resize=652%2C338&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-29562\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>&nbsp;<a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">&#8220;Keeping up with Gutenberg &#8211; Index 2024&#8221;</a>&nbsp;</strong><br />A chronological list of the WordPress Make Blog posts from various teams involved in Gutenberg development: Design, Theme Review Team, Core Editor, Core JS, Core CSS, Test, and Meta team from Jan. 2024 on. Updated by yours truly. The previous years are also available: <strong><strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2020/\">2020</a>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2021/\">2021</a></strong>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2022/\">2022</a></strong></strong>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<strong><a href=\"https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/gutenberg-index-2023\">2023</a></strong></p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Bernhard Kau</strong> continued his series on building block theme for his website with <a href=\"https://kau-boys.com/3682/wordpress/goal-missed-i-had-to-add-some-css-to-the-theme\"><strong>Goal missed: I had to add some CSS to the theme</strong></a>. Although determined to only use the Site editor to create his theme, the difficulties to designing the header for his site, made Kau reach into his rich CSS tool box. He continues explaining how he added CSS files to his themes. </p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Starter Themes</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Brian Gardner</strong> just uploaded <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/themes/powder-zero/\"><strong>Powder Zero</strong></a> to the WordPress repository. It&#8217;s a A starter block theme for designers and developers. It offers plain designs and patterns for all the important templates with header and footer template parts. It also offers code examples to create block styles via the functions.php. It&#8217;s give you a solid head start into block theme building. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>A few months back, <strong>Brian Coords</strong> and <strong>Aurooba Ahmad</strong> published a <strong>&#8220;Block Theme<a href=\"https://github.com/bacoords/block-theme\"> is a block-based starter theme built for modern WordPress developers.</a></strong> Now it has reached 73 stars on GitHub. It corporates a build process, works with SASS, and also includes a few custom blocks. It also includes Linting, Prettier, and WordPress Coding Standards. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>About a year ago, <strong>Bill Erickson</strong> published <a href=\"https://www.billerickson.net/hybrid-wordpress-theme-starter/\"><strong>A starter theme for building Hybrid WordPress Themes</strong></a>. &#8220;A <strong>hybrid WordPress theme</strong> uses theme.json to define styles and customize the block editor while also using traditional PHP template files.&#8221; he explained.</p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>With <strong>Carolina Nymark</strong>&#8216;s <a href=\"https://fullsiteediting.com/block-theme-generator/\"><strong>Theme Builder Tool</strong></a>, you can assemble a new starter theme yourself on four levels: </p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>&nbsp;<strong>No Code</strong>&nbsp;-For building your theme in the Site Editor.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>&nbsp;<strong>Basic</strong>&nbsp;-More opinionated than&nbsp;<em>Underscores (_s)</em>.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>&nbsp;<strong>Advanced</strong>&nbsp;with WooCommerce support and basic build tools.</li>\n\n\n\n<li>&nbsp;<strong>Advanced</strong>&nbsp;with WooCommerce support and without build tools.</li>\n</ul>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>When talking to site builders and developers, it turns out, many use  the default theme <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/themes/twentytwentyfour/\"><strong>Twenty-Twenty-Four</strong></a> as a versatile starter theme to start new projects, either with a child theme or as a clone. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p>And finally, the <a href=\"https://wordpress.org/plugins/create-block-theme/\"><strong>Create block Theme plugin</strong></a> allows you to create a child theme, or a clone of the current block theme active on your site. It also provides you with a skeleton block theme to start with a blank slate </p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press\">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor</h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Beau Lebens,</strong> Head of Engineering for WooCommerce published <a href=\"https://developer.woocommerce.com/2024/07/23/woocommerce-in-2024-and-beyond-roadmap-update/\"><strong>WooCommerce in 2024 and beyond: Roadmap update</strong></a> and laid out the plan for the next few months for WooCommerce development and focus as well as an outlook beyond. Besides new and revamp initiatives around the Developer Experience for partners and extenders, like a newsletter, enhancing the REST-API, the message seems clear: &#8220;Our future is block-based &#8220;. He continues: &#8220;If your solutions are still relying on shortcodes or other legacy APIs, it’s time to embrace blocks and modernize your approach.&#8221;</p>\n\n\n\n<a href=\"https://developer.woocommerce.com/2024/07/23/woocommerce-in-2024-and-beyond-roadmap-update/\"><img width=\"652\" height=\"366\" tabindex=\"0\" src=\"https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/image_801c33.webp?resize=652%2C366&ssl=1\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-29608\" /></a>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><br />In <a href=\"https://developer.woocommerce.com/2024/07/26/woocommerce-9-2-pre-release-updates/\"><strong>WooCommerce 9.2: Pre-release updates</strong></a>, <a href=\"https://x.com/jacklynbiggin\"><strong>Jacklyn Biggin</strong></a>, developer advocate at WooCommerce gave a preview of the upcoming release. Among other updates, it  will bring a &#8220;Customize your Store&#8221; feature, enhances filtering for store searches  and accessibility improvements. </p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide\" />\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Damon Cook</strong> published on the Developer Blog: <a href=\"https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2024/07/30/building-a-card-layout-with-a-hover-reveal-effect/\"><strong>Building a card layout with a “hover reveal” effect</strong></a>. It’s a short tutorial on how to add block style to a core block and add CSS for animation. It’s even interesting for content creators as they learn how to create a Grid Block with card style cover block.&nb